Reason's behind disgust at 60$ for level 90 chars

[rhorle]

Yes I did otherwise I would not have stuck around to play the game and rewarded Blizzard each month, for seven years, with £9 and £20-£30 every time they release an expansion.

Which means that Blizzard has provided enjoyable content. Which undermines your argument that the boost needs to be free to by pass the non enjoyable content. Blizzard can not control when each individual customer decides they no longer enjoy certain content, and it is quite laughable that you are suggestion that they are required to create content so everyone enjoys it 100% of the time from now until they stop offering the product.

Allowing players to skip content by purchasing WoD or paying $60 is removing the mandatory need for players to play through leveling content. If you don't have to do something, how is it still mandatory? By every definition of the word in the English language it is no longer mandatory for people to go through leveling content.

[Sageofthe10paths]

It's a very outlandish price for something that is a digital good in a video game that already has a subscription fee! They said it's $60 because of the play time it takes to get to 90?! That's a load of crap and here's why... The fastest it takes to get to 90 I saw online with a guide is 4 days played time. Now 4 x 24 = 96, that's 96 hours of work. Now you divide 60 by 96 and you get = .625 cents per hour, SO you mean to tell me your reasoning by placing it at $60 is because of time taken?! By whom?! A 3rd work country?! The Chinese power levelers and gold farmers get paid more than that! Their logic is complete shit, and this is insulting to place such a high price tag just so you can have a new character to 90, which you'll still have to level to 100 and gear up, so now it's not pay to win.

[-Superman-]

If that's the case, why doesn't Blizzard re-visit leveling for veteran players? More BoA gear? Double/triple all current BoA gear's EXP rates? These are just suggestions, there are many other possible solutions. Why are you satisfied with a cash transaction being the solution to this problem? I want to see you defend it from a design stand point of view. How is the exchange of real money for a level 90 character good game design?

From my own point of view, leveling is no longer fun. 90 levels of grinding is a CHORE. If they gave me new questing content every 6 months, I might continue to use leveling, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for an MMO to change their lore every 6 months just to suit the need of someone who has been playing for 7 years and really only enjoys endgame content anyway.

To me, the $60 is very worth it. I am about to turn 40, own my own home, and my own business. I even help my wife with her business in my spare time. I play WoW because I enjoy end game farming, raiding, achievements, pet collecting, transmog hunting, etc. Anything below level cap to me is boring, and weak. I despise PvP and have no use for lower level characters. If I did level, it would take about 40 hours of play time to go 90 levels. For me anyway. So, is it worth $60 for me to spend those same 40 hours getting to level 100 and then doing what I want to do? Yes. Do I want to spend 40 hours leveling, and then another 40 hours finally doing what I want to do? No.

If you are young, unmarried, have tons of free time, only go to school, live with mom and dad, have 4 roommates, or any other number of possible things, then good for you for wanting to level your character from scratch. For me, I would rather pay $60, grind 10 levels, and then get busy with the end game content.

[rhorle]

One of the problems with the current leveling paradigm is that players get to do 1/3rd of a zone and then out-level that zone. This invalidates a player's choice to level in a zone because it no longer becomes effective to level there. It makes questing more enjoyable because the player doesn't have to spend as much time traveling/zone hopping.

But you don't have to do 1/3rd of the zone if you don't want to. I've leveled several alts through Outlands by doing HFP and Zangarmarsh with a few quests in Netherstorm to reach the Northrend level requirements. Why can't you do it by choice?

Uh... the fact that people are willing to pay $60 to skip leveling it speaks volumes about it. People do not enjoy leveling.

Not everyone that is willing to pay $60 is doing so because they zones don't flow, or can be skipped after doing half of it.

How did you even get this from what I said? Nothing would be forcing a player to do an entire zone.

So if nothing would change, why is it broken? Because you can currently do an entire zone or half the zone before moving on. If you are in heirlooms, the rewards won't matter regardless. And if you are not, you'll still get rewards from doing quests that you can use. Heck in Outlands the weaker stat rewards in Zangarmarsh that have sockets are way better then anything you can get in other zones due to powerful gems.

If that's the case, why doesn't Blizzard re-visit leveling for veteran players? More BoA gear? Double/triple all current BoA gear's EXP rates? These are just suggestions, there are many other possible solutions. Why are you satisfied with a cash transaction being the solution to this problem? I want to see you defend it from a design stand point of view. How is the exchange of real money for a level 90 character good game design?

But increasing the experience bonus of BoA's would increase the problem that your earlier suggestion was attempting to fix. And the leveling process is already really fast with with full BoA's. Of course there are many possible solutions, but that doesn't mean a cash transaction is bad, wrong, or anything else just because other options exist.

From a design point of view there is no difference between paying cash for a level 90 and doing old redundant content. Because the design point of view is focused on the current content, and the content you are currently designing for consumption. It makes no difference if someone pays you (subscription) to level it up, or pays you to skip it (item store). They are still paying to do or skip content you've already had paid off.

How is it bad for game design?

[Pann]

Which means that Blizzard has provided enjoyable content. Which undermines your argument that the boost needs to be free to by pass the non enjoyable content. Blizzard can not control when each individual customer decides they no longer enjoy certain content, and it is quite laughable that you are suggestion that they are required to create content so everyone enjoys it 100% of the time from now until they stop offering the product.

Allowing players to skip content by purchasing WoD or paying $60 is removing the mandatory need for players to play through leveling content. If you don't have to do something, how is it still mandatory? By every definition of the word in the English language it is no longer mandatory for people to go through leveling content.

Well you did not disappoint in the argue against something I have not written stakes.

How does enjoying something seven years ago undermine my argument, and by my argument I mean something I have actually written and not something you claim I have, that the boost should be part of the current fee we pay?

Right?? Okay?? I don't believe that I said that Blizzard did have any control over when someone loses interest in certain content nor that are required to create content that everyone enjoys 100% of the time. I said, I know repeating myself to you is a waste of time but, if Blizzard wants to continue receiving money from their customers that have to provide enjoyable content for those customers. I do find it strange, although not that surprising, that you think the concept of Blizzard earning their money by actually providing entertainment to their customers laughable. Clearly many do not enjoy levelling content but do enjoy max level content(this would be the enjoyable content Blizzard provide) for those in that position they should not be forced to play through 80-100 hours of content they do not enjoy or pay an additional fee to reach the enjoyable part.

I should have been clearer and chosen my words better, you are correct that technically the requirement is no longer mandatory, however for many the cost is so prohibitive that the levelling process remains the only way for them to gain access to the content they enjoy.

[silvercentric]

From my own point of view, leveling is no longer fun. 90 levels of grinding is a CHORE. If they gave me new questing content every 6 months, I might continue to use leveling, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for an MMO to change their lore every 6 months just to suit the need of someone who has been playing for 7 years and really only enjoys endgame content anyway.

To me, the $60 is very worth it. I am about to turn 40, own my own home, and my own business. I even help my wife with her business in my spare time. I play WoW because I enjoy end game farming, raiding, achievements, pet collecting, transmog hunting, etc. Anything below level cap to me is boring, and weak. I despise PvP and have no use for lower level characters. If I did level, it would take about 40 hours of play time to go 90 levels. For me anyway. So, is it worth $60 for me to spend those same 40 hours getting to level 100 and then doing what I want to do? Yes. Do I want to spend 40 hours leveling, and then another 40 hours finally doing what I want to do? No.

Okay, that's great and all but that doesn't answer my question. I perfectly understand your MOTIVATION and everyone else's for wanting such a feature. Trust me, I can relate. I know that leveling is boring and that I would rather be doing endgame. What I'm trying to focus on is that doesn't paying for a level 90 character seem dishonest in the sense that it's a band-aid fix to bad game design?

But you don't have to do 1/3rd of the zone if you don't want to. I've leveled several alts through Outlands by doing HFP and Zangarmarsh with a few quests in Netherstorm to reach the Northrend level requirements. Why can't you do it by choice?

Because playeres level out of the quests before they finish the zone. Players don't want to do green quests. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, it's just a common complaint.

Not everyone that is willing to pay $60 is doing so because they zones don't flow, or can be skipped after doing half of it.

I never said that was the root cause. I said leveling being badly designed is the root cause. Zone flow is just one of many factors contributing to it.

So if nothing would change, why is it broken? Because you can currently do an entire zone or half the zone before moving on. If you are in heirlooms, the rewards won't matter regardless. And if you are not, you'll still get rewards from doing quests that you can use. Heck in Outlands the weaker stat rewards in Zangarmarsh that have sockets are way better then anything you can get in other zones due to powerful gems.

A level squish with a staggering of expansion leveling zones would provide player choice. Perhaps instead of going to Outlands you could skip it entirely and go straight to WoTLK.

But increasing the experience bonus of BoA's would increase the problem that your earlier suggestion was attempting to fix. And the leveling process is already really fast with with full BoA's.

All that being said you're completely missing the point. That point is that leveling is not enjoyable for most players, especially veteran players. I am not suggesting what I said is the solution, just one of many. The exact numbers and how it all works would have to be much more finely tuned than what I simply glossed over.

Of course there are many possible solutions, but that doesn't mean a cash transaction is bad, wrong, or anything else just because other options exist.

How do you make that leap of logic? The burden of proof is really on you here to prove how cash transactions are a GOOD thing for the game. How are cash transactions GOOD game design? Does paying cash for something make it fun?

From a design point of view there is no difference between paying cash for a level 90 and doing old redundant content.

Are you fucking serious? There is a huge difference between paying cash and doing old content. Experience points are something a player earns. Players earn EXP by killing enemies, completing quests, etc. These points come from somewhere. By paying cash to purchase a level 90 you effectively create something out of nothing.

They are still paying to do or skip content you've already had paid off.
How is it bad for game design?

Good game design would recognize there is something wrong with leveling and make an effort to solve that problem. Not cash in on it.

[ringpriest]

I'm going Ditto off these two arguments. Both are very well stated regarding why this isn't laziness on Blizz's part regarding old content. I don't care how good old content is. By the 6th-7th time, it's not nearly as enjoyable.

The why isn't Blizzard making this readily available to subscribers via some other means than charging for it? They could provide a free level boost for every character you already have at max level, make it a special raid drop, or something purchasable with some max-level currency. Heck, they could even make it part of a quest, or other unique max-level content. (Although I'm sure that would come at the cost of a raid tier. ) They could give you one level boost for every 6 months you've been subscribed, or one per realm per expansion, or in any number of ways. But no, the one they've chosen is the one that provides a big, fat boost to their profit margin. (Much like we didn't get a fix for dead realms until they'd milked server transfer payments for years.) It's not simple laziness, it's greed.

[silvercentric]

Because we do not claim that leveling is somehow badly designed.
It's just that after 9 years I am personally not interested in leveling these things again!
With WoD I am looking forward to leveling again! But not the quests I have done three times in a row.

Everyone who is pro-buying a 90's willingness to fork over $60 to skip it says otherwise.

The addition of a free level 90 with WoD so that new players can skip right to the end-game says otherwise.

[Kindahuge]

The way I looked at it was something like this - I wasn't quite outta my teens when WoW started, had a lot of free time to level up alts, especially once WotLK hit.

Not so these days, I have my main, I play him, I JUST got around to getting my 2nd fav toon to 90 and gearing him up, nearly at the end of the xpac. I raid, that's what keeps me subbed.

With the 90 boost, I was excited, thinking "hmm, $25 or $30, maybe if the team is really hurting for x class or x buff down the road I'll just grab myself an alt that I can quickly get to 100 and raid on."

Then I saw $60. I rarely buy other games, but if I'm spending $60 at once on video gaming, it's absolutely going to be on a new game rather than a slightly different way to raid in WoW. I get their logic, but let's be honest here, they weren't worried about all the levelers who would feel slighted or cheated by a cheaper 90 boost price, it was carefully calculated for profit.

Notice when Ian Hazzikostas responded about it, he said "we didn't price it to sell the most boosts we could." Not the same thing as "we didn't price it to make as much money from them as we feel is possible."

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone who is pro-buying a 90's willingness to fork over $60 to skip it says otherwise.

The addition of a free level 90 with WoD so that new players can skip right to the end-game says otherwise.

No, Kangodo summed it up pretty well. I think you just want to argue.

"I'm kind of tired of these old zones after 4 alts" does not equal "this is badly designed."

[silvercentric]

No, Kangodo summed it up pretty well. I think you just want to argue.

"I'm kind of tired of these old zones after 4 alts" does not equal "this is badly designed."

In the interest of not having to retype what I said a few posts above:

The burden of proof is really on you here to prove how cash transactions are a GOOD thing for the game. How are cash transactions GOOD game design? Does paying cash for something make it fun?

There is a huge difference between paying cash and doing old content. Experience points are something a player earns. Players earn EXP by killing enemies, completing quests, etc. These points come from somewhere. By paying cash to purchase a level 90 you effectively create something out of nothing.

Good game design would recognize there is something wrong with leveling and make an effort to solve that problem. Not cash in on it.

Either that or you don't need another level 90 at all.

[silvercentric]

How so?
There is nothing wrong with leveling from 1 to 90 for the first couple of times.
There is also nothing wrong with 90-100.

The problem is in "being forced" to level my 8th character because my friends decided to go the other faction on another server.

I LOVE leveling.
I hate leveling for the 8th time.

You're not being forced to do anything. If it's a matter of factions or servers they have services available for that.

[ringpriest]

"I'm kind of tired of these old zones after 4 alts" does not equal "this is badly designed."

"Our most addicted <cough> dedicated players can either fork over $60 or be bored out of the their skulls for days" is most certainly bad design. No, I take that back. It's not merely 'bad' design, it is wretched, miserable, foul, vile design.

[-Superman-]

Okay, that's great and all but that doesn't answer my question. I perfectly understand your MOTIVATION and everyone else's for wanting such a feature. Trust me, I can relate. I know that leveling is boring and that I would rather be doing endgame. What I'm trying to focus on is that doesn't paying for a level 90 character seem dishonest in the sense that it's a band-aid fix to bad game design?

Bad Game design is continually raising the level ceiling. If Blizz were SMART, they would create WoW 2, and allow the option to take your character from WoW, and move it to WoW2 as a lvl 1 and see a whole new world. Then, after another 50 levels, make WoW3 and do it again. The whole time, you get to keep your original character and achieves/mounts/titles/etc and still get to progress 50 levels at a time through more expansions.

THEN, if you decide to roll a lvl 1 alt, you are in the new game, with the new content, and only have (up to) 50 levels in front of you rather than 150. Each time, you move your characters to the new version, a copy of the last level cap is left in the previous version. Now, you are paying $15 a month, for 3 different games, at potentially 20 different stages, and can still enjoy progressing through content as though it were new.

As for fixing the current lvl 1-90... there is NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE. The game is old, and the world has already been revamped. I am guessing people who have played EQ for 18 years likely don't still go back and make a new toon unless they have absolutely nothing better to do.

[silvercentric]

Bad Game design is continually raising the level ceiling.

This I agree with. To others it may seem integral that they always level up with each expansion... in truth it is really not necessary. If the game had stayed at level 60 with classic and the only power progression beyond that was gear based I would be perfectly fine with that. Obviously it's too late for that now.

If Blizz were SMART, they would create WoW 2, and allow the option to take your character from WoW, and move it to WoW2 as a lvl 1 and see a whole new world. Then, after another 50 levels, make WoW3 and do it again. The whole time, you get to keep your original character and achieves/mounts/titles/etc and still get to progress 50 levels at a time through more expansions.

THEN, if you decide to roll a lvl 1 alt, you are in the new game, with the new content, and only have (up to) 50 levels in front of you rather than 150. Each time, you move your characters to the new version, a copy of the last level cap is left in the previous version. Now, you are paying $15 a month, for 3 different games, at potentially 20 different stages, and can still enjoy progressing through content as though it were new.

I don't really think this is a good idea but okay.

As for fixing the current lvl 1-90... there is NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE. The game is old, and the world has already been revamped.

This is where you're completely wrong. They can do something about it and it doesn't require anywhere near the work of a complete revamp (ala: Cataclysm 1-60).

There are many possible solutions, which is best? I cannot say but to name a few:

• A level squish that staggers leveling zones. Reduce the total time it takes to reach max level significantly while also giving players more choice in which zones they level in.
• Offer quests to max-level characters in liue of some sort of "apprentice" lore where your max-level characters helps boost a new character to 60/70/80/90/whatever. via a small quest chain.
• Increase EXP BoA rates by a significant amount.
• Add BoA EXP on-use items to end-game content such as heroic dungeons/raiding/PvP/Pandaria pet battles, etc. as random drops. Said on-use items would give a fixed or % worth amount of EXP to the character that uses them.
• Hell, make a new gold sink. Gold for levels.

There are more that I can't think of. I'm not a professional developer at Blizzard, I'm sure they can think of something better. Whatever they come up with, it's better than paying real-life money for this shortcoming.

Yes, they have a service for that.. It's called a boost to level 90.

Once again I'll say it: You're creating something out of nothing. A server or faction change is not in the same line. A server or faction change is still meta-game in the sense that servers are part of the meta-game. Paying for a level 90 character is not meta, it directly effects the actual game.

[rhorle]

What I'm trying to focus on is that doesn't paying for a level 90 character seem dishonest in the sense that it's a band-aid fix to bad game design?

No, why would it? Blizzards leveling experience isn't bad game design. Your own suggestions to "fix it" didn't even change the leveling design, and you even suggested things that Blizzard has done in the past (adding more BoA's etc).

Because playeres level out of the quests before they finish the zone. Players don't want to do green quests. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, it's just a common complaint.

So the leveling system is broken because you are offered green quests? That will always happen even in your proposed system and not something Blizzard can control. Because green quests still offer rewards, and they aren't that bad of rewards for the lowered difficulty of those quests. Like I said you can level almost to Northrend levels by doing HFP and Zangarmarsh and that includes green quests. It really isn't that big of an issue to do green quests if you want to see the zones story.

That point is that leveling is not enjoyable for most players, especially veteran players.

And yet all of your suggestions have still but veteran players through that content. Why is it that everything you suggestion is one of many solutions, but a level boost can never be one of many solutions? Paid or not makes little difference when it is a solution.

Are you fucking serious? There is a huge difference between paying cash and doing old content. Experience points are something a player earns. Players earn EXP by killing enemies, completing quests, etc. These points come from somewhere. By paying cash to purchase a level 90 you effectively create something out of nothing.

There is not a huge difference when it comes to game design, because as a developer you are developing content for people to consume. If you spent your entire development time creating new content why wouldn't you create something to direct the most people to that content you just designed? Old content is old is an apt statement when considering things from a game design stand point.

You don't force people to go through everything old just to get to your new stuff, because that won't give the most access to your product.

Good game design would recognize there is something wrong with leveling and make an effort to solve that problem. Not cash in on it.

So it is bad for game design to offer options for players? None of the things you have so far listed are actual problems for leveling. Everything you have listed is about seeing the entire story for a zone/expansion while still gaining levels. They've added better leveling through instances, redid 1-60, added heirlooms, made heirlooms cross faction (and cross server), add more +XP heirlooms, +XP buffs during world events, +XP potions (the one off the rare), SoR (though now retired), RaF, lower XP needed for each expansion.

What more do you want them to do? Why not offer people to skip it as well? The cost to create the content they are letting you skip has already been repaid to Blizzard. From a game design perspective it doesn't make a difference to have people buy levels, or earn them by playing the game. Because you are not allowing them to by pass the content you are actively creating.

- - - Updated - - -

The addition of a free level 90 with WoD so that new players can skip right to the end-game says otherwise.

You don't understand the free level 90 boost for returning players then. How do you entice returning players to keep playing your game when they don't get to do the new and exciting content? When they don't get to do anything relevant for X amount of levels? SoR and RaF were popular programs and all offered boosts.

- - - Updated - - -

You're not being forced to do anything. If it's a matter of factions or servers they have services available for that.

So its okay to fork money over to change factions and/or servers (instead of having to level again) but it isn't okay to skip doing that by buying a 90? That is hypocritical as both allow you to by pass the leveling system. One just does it with an existing 90 rather then giving you a new 90. But both don't force you to level again.

[dusselldorf]

Just a quick quip, how can anyone say that a game that has retained *millions* of monthly paying subscribers for *over a decade* is a bad game design with a straight face?

[Aeula]

Was expecting it to be half the price. You can buy a game with that money, I usually throw my money around but I'm not sure I will be willing to with this.

[rhorle]

"Our most addicted <cough> dedicated players can either fork over $60 or be bored out of the their skulls for days" is most certainly bad design. No, I take that back. It's not merely 'bad' design, it is wretched, miserable, foul, vile design.

Its bad design to allow those who want to the option to do it? A person buying a 90 doesn't effect you. You don't lose any power, you don't gain a disadvantage. Just calling it bad, wretched, miserable, foul, or vile design doesn't make it so. No matter how many times you repeat that mantra it won't make it true.

[MoanaLisa]

If Blizzard spent the requisite amount of time required to continue to 'improve' the 1-X leveling process expansion after expansion the very same people would be here complaining about it and the effect on end game. They did that once, they learned a lesson and I don't expect them to be stupid enough to have to learn it a second time.

[silvercentric]

So the leveling system is broken because you are offered green quests? That will always happen even in your proposed system and not something Blizzard can control. Because green quests still offer rewards, and they aren't that bad of rewards for the lowered difficulty of those quests. Like I said you can level almost to Northrend levels by doing HFP and Zangarmarsh and that includes green quests. It really isn't that big of an issue to do green quests if you want to see the zones story.

Completely missing the point. I'm not going to bother re-explaining.

And yet all of your suggestions have still but veteran players through that content. Why is it that everything you suggestion is one of many solutions, but a level boost can never be one of many solutions? Paid or not makes little difference when it is a solution.

Are you honestly so entrenched in defending this that you can't see the difference between an in-game solution and a meta-one that involves paying money?

There is not a huge difference when it comes to game design, because as a developer you are developing content for people to consume. If you spent your entire development time creating new content why wouldn't you create something to direct the most people to that content you just designed? Old content is old is an apt statement when considering things from a game design stand point.

You don't force people to go through everything old just to get to your new stuff, because that won't give the most access to your product.

When are you ever forced to make an alt? Nobody is forcing you to go through old content. There is value in creating a new character and you are bypassing that by using out-of-game means when you pay for it.

So it is bad for game design to offer options for players?

Is this a serious question? You can offer all kinds of options in your game for any variety of things. Whether those options are good for the sake of the game is completely relevant to the option at hand. You make it sound like I'm against good options.

None of the things you have so far listed are actual problems for leveling. Everything you have listed is about seeing the entire story for a zone/expansion while still gaining levels. They've added better leveling through instances, redid 1-60, added heirlooms, made heirlooms cross faction (and cross server), add more +XP heirlooms, +XP buffs during world events, +XP potions (the one off the rare), SoR (though now retired), RaF, lower XP needed for each expansion.

As I said above. I am not a professional game designer. It doesn't fall on me to come up with the best solution to their problem, I am merely suggesting one possible solution. I did offer more solutions in the post directly above yours.

What more do you want them to do? Why not offer people to skip it as well?

This is a huge leap of logic to go straight to transactions. Skipping the content is something that I would actually be okay with. If: it was completely acquirable via in-game methods and not tucked behind a price tag.

From a game design perspective it doesn't make a difference to have people buy levels, or earn them by playing the game.

Games, especially MMOs are based upon a set of rules. When you offer to bend those rules to those who are willing to pay more you break the integrity of the game. This is inherently bad game design.

You don't understand the free level 90 boost for returning players then. How do you entice returning players to keep playing your game when they don't get to do the new and exciting content? When they don't get to do anything relevant for X amount of levels? SoR and RaF were popular programs and all offered boosts.

Returning players already have a head-start on new players. At most they have to put in 24 hours to reach max level. That's a very small amount of time to put in to catch-up considering how many hours end-game content actually takes up.