If the healer won't heal, is it appropriate as the tank to leave the group?

[RyanEX]

I am so sick of DPS playing their tank alts and whining like a DPS.

Would you leave if a Disc Priest or a MW Monk were putting out DPS? Ele shamans are recognized as the No. 1 hybrid in the game with DPS/Heals and can easily DPS and heal a level 40 dungeon.

I'm so sick of people queueing as something they're not just to get a quick queue.

People like to bitch and moan about the state of the game, and then turn around and support those that help contribute to the crap. It doesn't matter if the instance is easy. They start that shit at low levels and then continue it up to max. How many threads do we see about people raging over the state of LFR or Flex?

Could it just POSSIBLY be related to the fact that it all started at lower levels?

[Lovestar]

ICould it just POSSIBLY be related to the fact that it all started at lower levels?

No. It isn't. It's related to Blizzard's tuning deliberately making it possible at every level.

Reality is that a very large portion of players don't care as much as most of the people posting here; MMOC is a very misleading community vs. the game's total population. They do what they do in LFR because they can.

If you tried to teach them otherwise or made it impossible for them to do that in LFR, most would just quit doing the content entirely.

There is no sense fuming about an environment with low expectations and low standards of performance when you enter it voluntarily. Adapt or avoid it, and if you're really upset by it, complain to Blizzard — not the players playing the game's trivial content in a legitimate way.

I respect wanting to learn under 'proper' circumstances, but that's not leveling dungeons and it's definitely not random matchmade groups. Form a leveling premade with friends/guildies who understand your needs, or blast through leveling and use Proving Grounds to train in a controlled environment. This is a storm in a teacup.

We're not supporting someone trying to join your Heroic SoO PUG as a Feral-spec healer, because that would probably matter. We're supporting someone multitasking in an environment where it doesn't matter... because it doesn't matter.

Even if the healer is truly incompetent, and not just DPSing from lack of purpose, you can still complete the run. So if you ask me, "Was I wrong for dropping group?" I'm going to say: "Yes".

If you follow up with "But I don't want to stay with a group like that!" Well, okay — then don't. No one's forcing you to do anything. It doesn't change my answer to your original question.

[Deleted]

Did you die? It's really common for hybrids to just heal as a DPS spec so they can contribute to actually killing things and make the run faster. Tanks take little-to-no damage anyways, so any healer is basically just there for backup anyways. You could even run 5 DPS with 1 hybrid healer and be perfectly fine.

If you died, yeah that guy is a dick. If he was throwing you heals when you needed them (and it sounds like he was), he was being smart. Queuing heals as a hybrid means faster queues, faster clears, and no real danger. In that case, you overreacted just because the group didn't fit the "meta".

You're thinking with a lvl 90 mentality. A healer should always be present while leveling, because the mitigation and self-healing is really bad. Tanks do 50-75% of the damage, so it's a much bigger dps loss for the healer to only heal in emergencies, than speccing healer and let the tank pull the entire dungeon.

Also, thunderstorming is really, really, really bad and should be a banned spell (death grip too) in LFD/LFR. It's pretty obvious from the OPs post that the "healer" was bad and slowed down the group.

If the tank is fast, it doesn't matter how good of a hybrid you are. You're slowing the group down since you're not allowing him to chain pull the whole instance.

[prwraith]

As someone who actively plays a tank a healer and a dps toon in regular every week. I can honestly say, tanks are the whiniest bitches in the whole game.

On my geared disc priest I can solo heroic instances easily and I sure as shit don't wait for the tank to pull. On my Survival hunter I can destroy the entire instance with little to no help from the tank. When I do either of these things people bitch, despite me requiring no help from the group and in fact greatly speeding up the run.

[frymastermeat]

Right click, vote to kick, type "not healing", he'll be gone and replaced in less than a minute.

[Deleted]

Right click, vote to kick, type "not healing", he'll be gone and replaced in less than a minute.

A dungeon generally takes less than 15min and there's a 15min limit before you can start kicking.

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The damage in instances ramps up as you get closer to 60. Early on there's little need for proper specs, and with a real tank there'll be nothing to heal so healers tend to dps a lot. As you get to the middle levels, the mobs start doing more damage. Around lvl 50-60 mobs do actual damage. I've been one shotted by a trash mob as a warlock with soul link in LBRS for example, which would never happen in the earlier instances. It's a good design in a way, because it lets lower level players who are less experienced get away with more.

Self-healing and active mitigation are very big parts of tanking today, so it's not a bad thing to be learning how to keep yourself alive.

Well, I guess you haven't been with tanks pulling more than one pack.

If I level with a healer friend, we rush through without stopping. There's a lot of healing needed, he doesn't even have time to dps, even if I push defensive buttons to help at least a little.

[Kurzior]

Healers are there to heal, Dps are there to do damage, tanks are there to tank. If you aren't doing the job you signed up for, you have no right to expect that from anyone else and if they abandon you to your own devices or kick you from the group that's perfectly within their right, on top of possibly teaching you a good lesson (though I doubt people who do this are likely to learn anything).

The said, I can kind of sympathize with low level players wanting to dps in healing roles, because as healers, they don't feel particularly useful, or even needed. It's at least partly blizzard's fault for allowing so many factors (heirlooms, gear scaling, content tuning) to be so out of balance at low levels. Granted, there are some valid reasons for that, but it doesn't help anything.

My suggestion, if you see a healer doing this in a lowbie dungeon, ask him to change to healing if it's really a problem, and do it without being a jerk. If he comes back with some BS response like wanting to AFK through the place, at least you tried and you don't have to feel bad about kicking him.

[Mummbles]

Everything right up to SOO is going to be very easy to tank/ heal. If they just are not getting it below max level, they never will.

You should put them on ignore and try to boot them. If it doesn't go through, just leave.

[Raiju]

Healers are there to heal, Dps are there to do damage, tanks are there to tank. If you aren't doing the job you signed up for, you have no right to expect that from anyone else and if they abandon you to your own devices or kick you from the group that's perfectly within their right, on top of possibly teaching you a good lesson (though I doubt people who do this are likely to learn anything).

The said, I can kind of sympathize with low level players wanting to dps in healing roles, because as healers, they don't feel particularly useful, or even needed. It's at least partly blizzard's fault for allowing so many factors (heirlooms, gear scaling, content tuning) to be so out of balance at low levels. Granted, there are some valid reasons for that, but it doesn't help anything.

My suggestion, if you see a healer doing this in a lowbie dungeon, ask him to change to healing if it's really a problem, and do it without being a jerk. If he comes back with some BS response like wanting to AFK through the place, at least you tried and you don't have to feel bad about kicking him.

You should feel bad for forcing 3 other people to wait 15+mins for you to finish the dungeon because you're being a whiny baby about someone slacking at the back.

[PBitt]

Don't blame you, but I would have tried to boot the healer first...unless they were his guildies I'm sure they would have gone along with it. As long as the average IQ of your party is higher than a box of Pop-Tarts, healing takes no effort in a five man anyways.

[clevin]

If he, as the designated healer, has time to DPS: pull more. If he still doesn't heal (at all) and someone dies, kick him.
But yes...of course you can leave as well. It's really up to you, don't worry about it.

The problem is that OP wasn't confident in tanking having just picked the character back up (at least that's what I inferred).

[Jester Joe]

No they didn't. The most they've said is that healers will need to choose their targets more carefully, triage will matter more due to inability to keep people topped up (Cata deja vu...), and that Tank self-healing might be affected by the redesigns to Vengeance.

The trinity still exists right now in content that 'matters', there's nothing to reinforce, and I'm extremely sceptical you'll see any major changes to the current a) leveling formula and b) treatment of 'easy' content like Normal Dungeons and LFR.

@Radio is correct and, as we've covered ad-nauseum in this thread now, there's no reason to flip out during a leveling dungeon unless you're actually dying, and that's very difficult to do if you apply some basic sense to your actions and ability usage.

Healer wants to DPS? Great, stuff dies faster, maybe pull slightly smaller packs more frequently in-pace with your self-survival tools. Healer insists on healing? Great, you can pull the entire dungeon without stopping and let your DPS end it in a giant orgy of AoE.

You waste more time complaining about people not doing it right, than you do just adapting and getting the dungeon done.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...althy-Gameplay

Quite a few of the questions regard the triage, and if they're making healing matter more, how is that not reinforcing it? They're making dungeons harder with WoD, I wouldn't be shocked if the heroic dungeons are harder than LFR.

I don't see this going anywhere though, because in your mind apparently the healer should be able to do whatever role they want, but the tank should have to tank it all and deal with that. OP hardly "flipped out", he left because he didn't want to deal with it, and that's his choice. There is literally no reason to tell him to just suck it up when he clearly had a healer that was just being dumb.

Even if the healer is truly incompetent, and not just DPSing from lack of purpose, you can still complete the run. So if you ask me, "Was I wrong for dropping group?" I'm going to say: "Yes".

Give one reason why the OP should stay in that situation? Blizzard put a role check up for dungeons, and I wish they would make it clear that is the role you're suppose to be in, because so many people seem to get this false idea of "Well as long as someone else can do it, I can do whatever"
Could the tank do the whole instance without a healer? Sure.
Should he have to just because someone refused to do the role they queued in as? No. In fact, he didn't even down a boss most likely if it was in a few trash pulls, so he also got a 30 minute debuff because someone refused to do their role. Would I of gave the shaman more time to switch over personally, probably, but still. If the tank didn't want to deal with doing a run without a healer, he didn't have to. In fact, he's not even wasting anyone's time in dropping, since if the shaman actually goes resto, they could continue on without a tank, if you want to argue that the healer doesn't need to do their role, then a dps doesn't need to just be a dps, they could be a tank.

[Deleted]

A dungeon generally takes less than 15min and there's a 15min limit before you can start kicking.

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Well, I guess you haven't been with tanks pulling more than one pack.

If I level with a healer friend, we rush through without stopping. There's a lot of healing needed, he doesn't even have time to dps, even if I push defensive buttons to help at least a little.

I'm perfectly aware that you can do that, and I do it whenever I level tanking characters. However, the OP is a newbie tank who is probably not confident in doing that, therefore he'll be taking damage from 1 pack at a time.

I almost never get tanks like that when I'm leveling my dps characters, so from a healer perspective most real tanks (real as in the right spec and with a shield if warrior/paladin) won't take much real damage until the later levels.

[Awbee]

No. It isn't. It's related to Blizzard's tuning deliberately making it possible at every level.

There is no sense fuming about an environment with low expectations and low standards of performance when you enter it voluntarily. Adapt or avoid it, and if you're really upset by it, complain to Blizzard — not the players playing the game's trivial content in a legitimate way.

I respect wanting to learn under 'proper' circumstances, but that's not leveling dungeons and it's definitely not random matchmade groups.

Yeah, but that kinda sucks, doesn't it? When I started playing in Wrath, I used LFD to level (not exclusively, I also quested a lot), and I remember it being much better tuned in terms of difficulty. Most people stuck to their assigned roles, we wiped occasionally but rarely. You had to pay *some* attention.

Of course leveling dungeons shouldn't be hard, you should be able to make many mistakes because you're just learning to play (either that class, or the game entirely), but they shouldn't be so ridiculously easy that no learning process is involved at all. Imagine you're a brand new player in a completely out-heirloomed lulz-group, shooting their way through the dungeon, making you feel completely worthless and redundant ... that's gotta suck.

I think a big problem is that a lot of players hate leveling, they hate doing the leveling dungeons, they just want to get it done as fast as possible. That's kind of understandable, but these players are then ruining dungeons for the people who actually enjoy leveling (like myself) and new players. Maybe the 90-boost is gonna help out a bit with this problem ... probably the first benefit I can see in it.

As someone who actively plays a tank a healer and a dps toon in regular every week. I can honestly say, tanks are the whiniest bitches in the whole game.

On my geared disc priest I can solo heroic instances easily and I sure as shit don't wait for the tank to pull. On my Survival hunter I can destroy the entire instance with little to no help from the tank. When I do either of these things people bitch, despite me requiring no help from the group and in fact greatly speeding up the run.

Good for you, then go into a dungeon solo. If you queue up for LFG, you're agreeing to play with 4 other players, and you're choosing a role and agreeing to play it. If you don't, you're annoying, no matter how 133t your dps is.

[Lovestar]

Yeah, but that kinda sucks, doesn't it? When I started playing in Wrath, I used LFD to level (not exclusively, I also quested a lot), and I remember it being much better tuned in terms of difficulty. Most people stuck to their assigned roles, we wiped occasionally but rarely. You had to pay *some* attention.

That's because Blizzard deliberately under-tuned leveling dungeons as part of their overall 'revamp' pass of 1-60 content in Cataclysm, combined with a massive power creep from all sorts of different sources in the time since WOTLK. The relative power of even a single player vs. leveling dungeon content now is completely deranged from what it was 2-3 xpacs ago.

Imagine you're a brand new player in a completely out-heirloomed lulz-group, shooting their way through the dungeon, making you feel completely worthless and redundant ... that's gotta suck.

Yes it does, and yes it's stupid. However, the topic here isn't "Did Blizzard over-trivialize group leveling content and allow too much power disparity via Heirlooms and other issues?" Whether or not this is 'good' doesn't change what it 'is', and in the context of what it 'is' there's no reason to leave a group if you're not dying while grinding dungeons for XP.

I think a big problem is that a lot of players hate leveling, they hate doing the leveling dungeons, they just want to get it done as fast as possible.

The irony is that one of the reasons they hate it, is because it's such a trivial mindless process. Which was Blizzard's attempts to make people like leveling, by making it a relaxing and easy experience. Unfortunately if you cranked leveling difficulty back up now, it would cause all sorts of other problems so it's a bit of a no-win situation.

[Issalice]

I would have pulled more and if someone died called him out on it. I have 2 hybrid healers, when the mobs get to be a bit much you need to start focusing on the healing end more then dpsing. If he failed to do that I don't think anyone in the group would have disagreed with a vote kick.

[Paulosio]

If it was a problem to the group maybe i'd leave or ask to have that guy kicked but I imagine there is little to heal anyway. I normally just spam dps spells when I heal and there's no damage going on. If nobody is in danger of dying... who cares.

[Pendragon]

I wouldn't say you're wrong for leaving, but I'd at least attempt to get him kicked quickly and stay not to punish the DPS. If that fails or there is hassle then hell yeah, I'd leave and eat the debuff.

[Lovestar]

Quite a few of the questions regard the triage, and if they're making healing matter more, how is that not reinforcing it? They're making dungeons harder with WoD, I wouldn't be shocked if the heroic dungeons are harder than LFR.

I've read all those Tweets when they were originally sent by the devs. None of them say 'And we're crippling Tank self-sustainability'.

The closest we've gotten is someone asking if Tank Healing will be a role again, since it disappeared in MoP, and some passing comments that a) reduction in Smart Heals and b) changes to Vengeance may have an impact on the viability/need for dedicated tank healers. We've had no further confirmation either way. Since the purpose of AM is, to some degree, to allow tanks to show off by keeping themselves alive, I'm sceptical we'll return to an era of "PALLY = TANK HEALER", especially since even in WOTLK (way before AM) my Block tanks were doing 4-DPS dungeon runs with an offhealing DPS for a few pulls or bosses.

I don't see this going anywhere though, because in your mind apparently the healer should be able to do whatever role they want, but the tank should have to tank it all and deal with that. OP hardly "flipped out", he left because he didn't want to deal with it, and that's his choice. There is literally no reason to tell him to just suck it up when he clearly had a healer that was just being dumb.

He asked our opinion, I gave it to him. If it wasn't the one he wanted, I can't help that.

And you're grossly mis-characterizing my statements. I'm clearly discussing an environment where no significant amount of healing is needed and a Tank is completely capable of sustaining themselves. If a healer wants to DPS and no one is dying, who cares? Again, you waste more time trying to kick them or complaining about it than just finishing the run.

Until someone produces actual collected data comparing the speed of dungeon runs between "4 DPS + 1 Tank" and "Tank + Healer + 3 DPS" across the leveling range, I'm going to consider arguments that "It's so much faster with a healer!" biased anecdote since a geared/experienced leveling tank can do a run without a healer.

Give one reason why the OP should stay in that situation?

Well, we've already done this throughout the thread, but okay: Because he wasted the time of 3 DPS who did nothing wrong and wasted his own time ending a run early when he could have survived fine, gained practice from it, and gained plenty of XP. This is essentially throwing down your controller and saying "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG I'M LEAVING", in an environment where 'doing it wrong' doesn't mean anything and you still win.

Should he have to just because someone refused to do the role they queued in as? No.

You seem confused. No one is telling him what he has to do. He asked if this is what he should have done. We said, "No" or "Probably not" because it's true. Most of us (if not all) have not proposed strapping him to his chair with duct tape and forcing him to tank this traumatizing experience, but if he asks "Did I do the right thing?" I'm going to subjectively say: "Nope."

[Deleted]

well based on his answer (i'm AFK), i would have asked the group to either kick the healer or kick me. that way even if they choose you, you don't get the deserter debuff.

I would have done something like that ...
healing in lowlvl is REALLY easy.... but that dosnt make it ok to act like he/she did