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  1. #261
    Can we please stop using absolutes in our title if there's no evidence from the horses mouth to support it.

    5 Reasons why Artificer COULD be the next class in WoW.


    I like the concept of an "artificer" who's trade is magical contraptions and constructs. It could fit in WoW but I don't really see how they'd be "Back-populated" in a lore friendly way. "Monks" existed in the ranks of the scarlet monastery long before pandaria. "Tinkers" and "WC3-Esque-Demon Hunters" Exist throughout the world today. (Gnomregan; Ashazara/Darkshore, outland.) Coming up with something out of the blue either means it has to be a hero class, or they need to retcon existing lore to give them a logical presence in Azeroth.

    The second problem is that the varying races of azeroth have very different styles of "technology", and you're either going to have a freak of nature using a mish-mash of different races of technology, or you've got both factions using a similar style of tech, which basically needs another shoe-in for the lore as to "why" they're doing it this way instead of the way that trolls/orcs/night elves/draenei/undead/humans/dwarves/gnomes/etc do it.

  2. #262
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And almost no warriors use it for the damage, but for gap-closing or to quickly escape something.
    Really? Did you poll every Warrior in WoW to reach this conclusion, or are you just pulling it out of your arse?

    There. I boldened the important part. Illidari demon hunters. Illidari demon hunters are akin to Garrosh's Dark Shamans. You don't see player shamans around with a spell that unleashes a rain of oozes, or one that calls a huge meteor from the sky, or infects them with a disease that deals more damage over time, do you?
    No because player Shaman never experienced those types of abilities, so they don't expect to use them. This goes all the way back to WC3 where no Shaman units had abilities like that. However, players are used to seeing DHs with Metamorphosis. Its kind of a staple ability that every DH player is used to having. Even DHs in Heroes of the Storm have metamorphosis, so its a very different scenario than player Shaman vs. Dark Shaman. The toxic abilities of a Dark Shaman counter the naturalistic abilities that we've always had. In comparison, DH players have always had metamorphosis.


    And yet you can't show proof of any non-Illidari DHs with that ability.
    Probably because the non-Illidari DHs are quest givers.

    Since when are Illidari DHs not DHs btw?

    Oh? Tyrion would wipe the floor with Varian's chin in a fight, and Varian is the most powerful warrior in Azeroth right now. Paladins have a huge advantage and superiority to warriors because they can wield the magic of the Light.
    Varok Saurfang is a more powerful warrior than Varian. Just saying. His brother Broxigar is probably the most powerful Warrior that has ever lived.

    The point is, nowhere does it imply that Paladins are more powerful than Warriors.

    No, just your thoughts lead to that conclusion.
    I'm still waiting for a valid counter argument.

    And Dark Shamans are more powerful than playable Shamans. Your point?
    Based on what exactly? Toxic powers aren't stronger than non-Toxic powers. However, a DH with metamorphosis is more powerful than a DH without metamorphosis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Can we please stop using absolutes in our title if there's no evidence from the horses mouth to support it.

    5 Reasons why Artificer COULD be the next class in WoW.
    That's my mistake. I was toying around with various titles, and I forget to edit the second part. Unfortunately I can't edit the title.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-23 at 08:47 PM.

  3. #263
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    It seems all of the WoW demon hunter ideas share one theme, they wanna have shirtless "armor"/tattoos and use the new weapon type warglaives.

    In other words, they wanna be illidan fanbois in character.
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  4. #264
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Really? Did you poll every Warrior in WoW to reach this conclusion, or are you just pulling it out of your arse?
    Considering I spoke with several warrior players raiding heroic bosses to try to find out the best itemization and reforging and rotation for my warrior, I'd say it's on the former.

    No because player Shaman never experienced those types of abilities, so they don't expect to use them. This goes all the way back to WC3 where no Shaman units had abilities like that. However, players are used to seeing DHs with Metamorphosis. Its kind of a staple ability that every DH player is used to having. Even DHs in Heroes of the Storm have metamorphosis, so its a very different scenario than player Shaman vs. Dark Shaman. The toxic abilities of a Dark Shaman counter the naturalistic abilities that we've always had. In comparison, DH players have always had metamorphosis.
    One: Heroes of the Storm is not Warcraft.
    Two: Illidari Demon Hunters are not playable Demon Hunters.
    Three: Non-campaign WC3 stuff cannot be considered. Otherwise a game I played where orcs and humans banded together to defeat the alliance of Night Elves and Undead is canon too?
    Four: Illidari DH = Garrosh's Dark Shaman.
    Five: DH campaign players never had that ability until Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'Dan. Again, non-campaign stuff is not canon.

    Probably because the non-Illidari DHs are quest givers.
    And?

    Varok Saurfang is a more powerful warrior than Varian. Just saying. His ancestor Broxigar is probably the most powerful Warrior that has ever lived.
    Are you sure? Because Varian has the power of the Lo'Gosh behind him. And Tyrion would still wipe the floor with Saurfang's beard.

    I'm still waiting for a valid counter argument.
    I'm sorry, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force a horse to drink water. And you, my friend, definitely don't want to drink water. You don't even acknowledge the water is there in the first place.

    Based on what exactly? Toxic powers aren't stronger than non-Toxic powers. However, a DH with metamorphosis is more powerful than a DH without metamorphosis.
    Then give me a Shaman ability that summons dozens of minions? Show me a Shaman ability that summons a literal wall of elementals? Show me a Shaman ability that calls down a meteor from the skies?

    EDIT: Also, your 'a DH with meta is more powerful than a DH without' is just akin to my 'paladins are more powerful that warriors' argument you are still trying to shoot down.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-03-23 at 08:29 PM.
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  5. #265
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Considering I spoke with several warrior players raiding heroic bosses to try to find out the best itemization and reforging and rotation for my warrior, I'd say it's on the former.
    Several Warriors that you've run across in WoW =/= Almost every Warrior that plays WoW


    One: Heroes of the Storm is not Warcraft.
    Two: Illidari Demon Hunters are not playable Demon Hunters.
    Three: Non-campaign WC3 stuff cannot be considered. Otherwise a game I played where orcs and humans banded together to defeat the alliance of Night Elves and Undead is canon too?
    Four: Illidari DH = Garrosh's Dark Shaman.
    Five: DH campaign players never had that ability until Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'Dan. Again, non-campaign stuff is not canon.
    You seem to be missing the point; People who want the DH class want one because they played the DH in WC3, and are probably going to play the DH in HotS. Do you honestly think that DH players aren't going to expect metamorphosis in their spellbook, since its been an ability they've been using as a DH for over a decade?

    Good luck pacifying that epic QQ with using lore arguments that don't even make sense.


    And?
    And quest givers tend to not have any abilities. Again, the majority of DHs in WoW have metamorphosis.

    BTW, you never answered how Illidan's DHs got metamorphosis without consuming the skull. Warlocks also got the ability also without having to consume a skull. Care to explain?

    Are you sure? Because Varian has the power of the Lo'Gosh behind him. And Tyrion would still wipe the floor with Saurfang's beard.
    This quote only goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Oh, and its Tirion, not Tyrion....

    Then give me a Shaman ability that summons dozens of minions? Show me a Shaman ability that summons a literal wall of elementals? Show me a Shaman ability that calls down a meteor from the skies?
    Are you seriously comparing raid bosses' abilities to player abilities?

    EDIT: Also, your 'a DH with meta is more powerful than a DH without' is just akin to my 'paladins are more powerful that warriors' argument you are still trying to shoot down.
    Actually it isn't. A DH without metamorphosis is weaker than a DH with metamorphosis, that's simply common sense.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-23 at 08:42 PM.

  6. #266
    Blizzard will not make a second class UNTIL they can create ideas that are different than anything they've come up with.
    I'm guessing a form of multiclassing. Since there is virtually no way they can create a class right now that exists in the RPG universe that is not already covering something a different class does. Every roll is filled. Every ability is used in some way or another. They need to come up with something COMPLETELY different or let you mesh two classes into one.
    Last edited by Rhekk; 2014-03-23 at 08:53 PM.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Are you seriously comparing raid bosses' abilities to player abilities?
    None of the dark shaman abilities both trash and bosses are available to shamans as I recall their spell list by memory. Things like Dark Fury, Umbral Tempest/Storm. Even the 5.3 barrens dark shamans had mostly unique abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #268
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Several Warriors that you've run across in WoW =/= Almost every Warrior that plays WoW
    Players who raid heroic with heroic content on farm have key similarities on the way they play their classes. Similar rotations, similar gemming, similar enchanting, etc. When the vast majority of them don't even mention Heroic Leap, and the ones who do say they only use it to 'get out of fire', you can have a pretty good idea of the situation.

    You seem to be missing the point; People who want the DH class want one because they played the DH in WC3, and are probably going to play the DH in HotS. Do you honestly think that DH players aren't going to expect metamorphosis in their spellbook, since its been an ability they've been using as a DH for over a decade?
    Good luck pacifying that epic QQ with using lore arguments that don't even make sense.
    No lore arguments make sense to you from what I'm seeing.

    And I would love to play a DH, because I liked its playstyle back during the campaign of WC3, and wouldn't mind one bit if WoW DHs didn't have the metamorphosis ability.

    And quest givers tend to not have any abilities. Again, the majority of DHs in WoW have metamorphosis.
    Illidari Demon hunters, yes. Non-Illidari Demon Hunters? Nope.

    BTW, you never answered how Illidan's DHs got metamorphosis without consuming the skull. Warlocks also got the ability also without having to consume a skull. Care to explain?
    You never asked. And the Illidari DHs got it the same way warlocks did: learned it. I don't get how that is so hard to understand.

    This quote only goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about.
    Oh, and its Tirion, not Tyrion....
    Right. Because mispelling someone's name totally means I know nothing of what I'm talking about. Game balancing aside, a Paladin would always beat a warrior on equal levels of skill. The Light magic they wield give them a tremendous advantage.

    Are you seriously comparing raid bosses' abilities to player abilities?
    Why shouldn't I? But if you want normal mobs, show me where a playable shaman can lay ice traps or electrify the ground or use shadow magic or drop a totem that damages and freezes enemies?
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  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    EDIT: Also, your 'a DH with meta is more powerful than a DH without' is just akin to my 'paladins are more powerful that warriors' argument you are still trying to shoot down.
    Actually it's not even remotely similar. You can't prove that Warcraft Paladins are more powerful than Warriors, but it's pretty easy to prove that DHs with metamorphosis are quite a bit more powerful than DHs without it.

    How? Simple. The only DHs with known abilities who didn't have metamorphosis were the trainees. This points to meta being a more advanced ability for DHs.

    And Warlocks picked it up almost instantly.

  10. #270
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And like many said: Demon Hunters don't need to have Metamorphosis. After all, lore-wise, only Illidan has that ability after consuming the power within the Skull of Gul'Dan.

    Except lorewise, he also had the ability during the WOtA. And other DHs also ahve the ability without consuming the skull. And Warlocks were able to find out how he did it and theyc an do it without the skull.


    All of which is beside the point.


    Technically. You are right. Demon Hunters don't need the Metamorphosis ability. They could function pretty well without it. That is ignoring the sheer associataion, flavor and look that Meta brings to the class. That's worth something right there. That's worth a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    only 1 classes uses int plate.

    And that issue is going away with WOD


    saying hunters need competition is annoying.

    Annoying it might be...but it's also true. Blizzard can work around it, but from a design pov, there are benefits in loot competition...especially when it coems to aspects as important as the weapon.


    It's not critical, Blizzard can work around it, but Blizzard has certainly expressed a preference for more balanced loot tables in the past.


    the next class will use mail that is for sure. outside that its a mystery.

    Probably. It isn't certain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I always find it amusing when someone says that DHs don't "need" metamorphosis.

    They don't. The class could function quite well without it. The problem is that it also loses a lot without Metamorphosis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beshou View Post
    While this is nothing like the Demon Hunter from Warcraft, it is a much better and more translatable version of a tech class than the WC3 Tinker. I do like it better and wouldn't mind seeing this one in game.

    It isn't a tech class. It's a D3 Demon Hunter...a melee class who simply uses technology. And who also uses magic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not as iconic as you think.

    Of course it's not iconic. Far from it. It's simply the one move anyone familiar with the class thinks of.


    Again, lore-wise, no Demon Hunter has that ability, and Illidan only transformed after consuming the Skull of Gul'Dan's power.

    If only that were true.


    That is a bad argument. A really bad one. Have you thought that maybe Demon Hunters don't change into a demon because it's a line they don't want to cross? They 'fight fire with fire', but maybe too much 'fire' may end up burning them.

    Have you ever thought that the reason they don't turn into a demon is simply because you know little about what they actually are? Just about every Demon Hunter we see has the ability.


    Besides, after turning into a demon, it could be easily argued he stopped being considered a demon hunter.

    No. It can't. He's a Demon Hunter. A Demon Hunter who has taken on Demon attributes to ebgs ure, but still a DH. Justa s Warlocks who use Meta are still considered wralocks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet you can't show proof of any non-Illidari DHs with that ability.

    Telarius. Illidan. You did play the WOE dungeon?


    EJL

  11. #271
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Players who raid heroic with heroic content on farm have key similarities on the way they play their classes. Similar rotations, similar gemming, similar enchanting, etc. When the vast majority of them don't even mention Heroic Leap, and the ones who do say they only use it to 'get out of fire', you can have a pretty good idea of the situation.
    It still isn't almost every Warrior in WoW which you stated in your initial post.

    No lore arguments make sense to you from what I'm seeing.
    Nice dodge. Now please explain why most DHs in WoW have metamorphosis. That would be quite helpful.


    Illidari Demon hunters, yes. Non-Illidari Demon Hunters? Nope.
    Please list the non-Illidari DHs in WoW with abilities. That would go a long way to help your flailing argument.

    You never asked. And the Illidari DHs got it the same way warlocks did: learned it. I don't get how that is so hard to understand.
    Probably because earlier you said the following;

    It's not as iconic as you think. Again, lore-wise, no Demon Hunter has that ability, and Illidan only transformed after consuming the Skull of Gul'Dan's power.
    I'm glad you've learned the error of your ways. Now please explain why player DHs couldn't also learn metamorphosis?

    I mean other than the fact that Warlocks already have that ability....

    Right. Because mispelling someone's name totally means I know nothing of what I'm talking about. Game balancing aside, a Paladin would always beat a warrior on equal levels of skill. The Light magic they wield give them a tremendous advantage.
    If you say so. That argument is so dumb that its not even worth discussing.

    Why shouldn't I? But if you want normal mobs, show me where a playable shaman can...
    You need to prove that those abilities are more powerful than the standard Shaman abilities. Since you can't, then that argument is a waste of time.

    However, a DH without metamorphosis is clearly weaker than a DH with metamorphosis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It isn't a tech class. It's a D3 Demon Hunter...a melee class who simply uses technology. And who also uses magic.
    EJL
    No love for the technician spec Talen?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-23 at 09:15 PM.

  12. #272
    Nice concept.

    Too bad this idea is complete BS. I would love to play it.

  13. #273
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Actually it's not even remotely similar. You can't prove that Warcraft Paladins are more powerful than Warriors, but it's pretty easy to prove that DHs with metamorphosis are quite a bit more powerful than DHs without it.
    Warriors don't have any special abilities other than hitting things with weapon. Paladins do all that, PLUS have the Holy Light to bless, heal and protect them. Again, game balancing aside, Paladins will always beat warriors in equal-skill battles.

    And Warlocks picked it up almost instantly.
    Erm, quote? Citation needed? Where in the lore does it say that Warlocks picked it up 'almost instantly'?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It still isn't almost every Warrior in WoW which you stated in your initial post.
    You still lost the argument.

    Nice dodge. Now please explain why most DHs in WoW have metamorphosis. That would be quite helpful.
    No non-illidari DHs have metamorphosis.

    Probably because earlier you said the following;
    I'm glad you've learned the error of your ways. Now please explain why player DHs couldn't also learn metamorphosis?
    I mean other than the fact that Warlocks already have that ability....
    What you quoted and what you said make no sense together. And I already explained why.

    EDIT: want a good example why? Go to Icecrown, in Northrend, the Argent Vanguard zone and listen to the conversation between Tirion and Darion. Replace Tirion with DHs and Darion with Warlocks and you have a perfect explanation. It's a line they do not want to cross.

    If you say so. That argument is so dumb that its not even worth discussing.
    More like you don't have any way of counter-arguing, right?

    You need to prove that those abilities are more powerful than the standard Shaman abilities. Since you can't, then that argument is a waste of time.
    However, a DH without metamorphosis is clearly weaker than a DH with metamorphosis.
    You haven't proven that non-meta DHs are weaker than meta-DHs. Also, no Shaman has a totem that AoE damages AND AoE freezes mobs. That alone is more powerful than normal shaman totems. Your move.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-03-23 at 10:02 PM.
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  14. #274
    High Overlord toomes211's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Players who raid heroic with heroic content on farm have key similarities on the way they play their classes. Similar rotations, similar gemming, similar enchanting, etc. When the vast majority of them don't even mention Heroic Leap, and the ones who do say they only use it to 'get out of fire', you can have a pretty good idea of the situation.
    While you do want to save heroic leap for emergency movement situations on fights that may require that - generally you want to use it during the 6 second window during CS. Free extra damage. If you're talking to people with 'heroic content on farm' they should know that. Of course, once you have content on farm the extra damage is negligible compared to the stress of actually doing this.

    If you don't believe me, Jalopy of Duality makes several references to this in the icy-veins.com fury warrior guide.

    The rest of your arguments I don't care to address one way or the other - I generally disagree but they're all somewhat subjective and it's pretty clear you've made up your mind.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    only 1 classes uses int plate. saying hunters need competition is annoying.
    the next class will use mail that is for sure. outside that its a mystery.
    Hey bro. DId you miss the entire homogenized loot coming in WoD? Holy pally plate is str dps plate.

    Also Hunter weapons need to be used by someone else. That shit gets annoying fast.

    Thanks L2WoD

  16. #276
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No non-illidari DHs have metamorphosis.
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Telarius_Voidstrider

  17. #277
    If you holy spec as a pally in WoD the plate will be stam+int. when you change to ret or prot the int changes to str.
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  18. #278
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A ghost of a DH, who fought against other Night Elves, therefore a renegade, who, according to my theory, could very well have 'crossed the line DHs don't want to', which could have been what made him a renegade. Not exactly a worthy example.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #279
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    If you holy spec as a pally in WoD the plate will be stam+int. when you change to ret or prot the int changes to str.
    Its not an itemization issue anymore, that's the point. Now plate-wearers can wear all the plate in the game without worrying about stats.

    However, there's still only 2 classes that wear mail armor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    A ghost of a DH, who fought against other Night Elves, therefore a renegade, who, according to my theory, could very well have 'crossed the line DHs don't want to', which could have been what made him a renegade. Not exactly a worthy example.
    Nothing worse than a goalie that moves the goalposts.....

  20. #280
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nothing worse than a goalie that moves the goalposts.....
    Hey, don't accuse the goalie of moving the goal posts if your ball hits the post and bounces out of the field.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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