Tinker Discussion Thread

[Dispraise]

Enchanter and Mage/Wizard/Sorcerer are also synonyms.

Enchanter and Mage aren't synonyms, and you're not vying for playable sorcerers.

[fixx]

Since you're using a game mechanic for your argument,

Learn to read. I said both class and profession are about as important lorewise.

That's because NPCs are sometimes known for the profession instead of class, like for example Mekkatorque. Game mechanics part was meant to demonstrate you how "high tinker" doesn't do shit with tinkering and actually uses the sword more.

Enchanter and Mage/Wizard/Sorcerer are also synonyms.

IN LORE Enchanting is a subset of magic, and an enchanter is a mage who's specialized in enchanting. In game mechanics enchanting has got nothing to do with mages. I don't see how those are synonymous, or did you learn otherwise in trolling school?

Really? I would argue that a massive flying super-aircraft carrier that carries gyrocopters and airplanes is pretty damn sci-fi. You see many of those flying around?

Hot air balloons (the technology used by WoW airships) is pretty damn far from scifi and was invented at the same time as first practical steam engine, while the basic principle of helicopters comes from Leonardo da Vinci (who was sadly missing good enough materials and manufacturing techniques at the time) predating even hot air balloons by few centuries.

[Teriz]

Enchanter and Mage aren't synonyms, and you're not vying for playable sorcerers.

Really?

mage noun

a person skilled in using supernatural forces <an ancient tale of a mage who made lush gardens grow in the desert>
Synonyms charmer, conjurer (or conjuror), enchanter, mage, Magician, magus, necromancer, sorcerer, voodoo, voodooist, witch, wizard

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesa...0&t=1395785810

- - - Updated - - -

Learn to read. I said both class and profession are about as important lorewise. That's because NPCs are usually known for one or the other.
Game mechanics part was meant to demonstrate you how "high tinker" doesn't do shit with tinkering and actually uses the sword more.

If classes and professions are equally important lorewise, why are you never referred to by your profession? Why can I drop a profession at a drop of a hat, but have to completely destroy my character if I want to be a different class?

Enchanting is a subset of magic, and an enchanter is a mage who's specialized in enchanting.
I don't see how those are synonymous, or did you learn otherwise in trolling school?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/mage?show=0&t=1395785810

The dictionary is your friend.

Hot air balloons (the technology used by WoW airships) is pretty damn far from scifi and was invented at the same time as first practical steam engine, while the basic principle of helicopters comes from Leonardo da Vinci predating even hot air balloons by few centuries.

Where's the balloons?

[fixx]

If classes and professions are equally important lorewise, why are you never referred to by your profession? Why can I drop a profession at a drop of a hat, but have to completely destroy my character if I want to be a different class?

Edited in in after your reply, but Mekkatorque is referred by his profession not class. Game mechanics is different from lore. As you pretty damn well know yourself it doesn't make any sense in reality to be able to drop a profession so it's not done in lore either.

Those strawman arguments are getting really tiresome btw.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesa...0&t=1395785810
The dictionary is your friend.

And your enemy
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tinker

[Teriz]

Edited in in after your reply, but Mekkatorque is referred by his profession not class. Game mechanics is different from lore. As you pretty damn well know yourself it doesn't make any sense in reality to be able to drop a profession so it's not done in lore either.

That isn't Mekkatorque's profession, that's his title. Like "King" or "Warchief". You fail again.

Those strawman arguments are getting really tiresome btw.

Along with game design, you might want to look up the meaning of strawman as well.

And your enemy
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tinker

Again, all Tinkers, Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers are Engineers, yet all Engineers are not Tinkers, Siegecrafters, or Mekgineers.

[Dispraise]

Really?

Yes, really. We're discussing wow lore, not merriam-webster. But if we're going to list irrelevant real-world items, anyway, an enchanter is specifically someone who deals in incantations, and a mage is one of an ancient persian caste of priests. Still not synonymous.

[Teriz]

Yes, really. We're discussing wow lore, not merriam-webster.

No, we were discussing what is and isn't a synonym. Enchanter is synonymous with Mage. Don't blame me, blame the English language.

an enchanter is specifically someone who deals in incantations, and a mage is an ancient persian caste of priests

Actually no.

Mage
a person skilled in using supernatural forces

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesa...0&t=1395785810

Enchanter
: a person who uses spells or magic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enchanter

Sounds like WoW's definition to me.

Still not synonymous.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesa...0&t=1395785810

[Dispraise]

No, we were discussing what is and isn't a synonym. Enchanter is synonymous with Mage.

Except we weren't, and it isn't.

"skilled magicians, astrologers," from Latin magi, plural of magus "magician, learned magician," from Greek magos, a word used for the Persian learned and priestly class as portrayed in the Bible

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...wed_in_frame=0

[Ielenia]

Then please explain how a tinker class raiding with technology abilities in any way impacts an engineer putting together a mount of piece of armor for auction?

Can you stop being so obtuse? We're talking theme here, not game mechanics. Stop avoiding the question and just answer the damn question everyone is asking you: where in the lore separates a tinker from an engineer? Where does it say the two are different things?

First let's just say for the sake of argument that all Tinkers, Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers are Engineers, yet all Engineers aren't Tinkers, Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers. We good?

We're getting somewhere, at least.

With that said, where in the profession can we do the things that Tinkers, Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers can do?

For the tinkers: you can make Sky Golems, you can make guns, you can make rockets, you can make robots. Everything a Tinker does.
As for the 'Siegecrafters' and 'Mekgineers', two things: one, they're titles simply, not classes; and two: they're bosses. By your rules, they do not compare to player classes.

[Teriz]

Can you stop being so obtuse? We're talking theme here, not game mechanics. Stop avoiding the question and just answer the damn question everyone is asking you: where in the lore separates a tinker from an engineer? Where does it say the two are different things?

That question only matters if the Tinker negatively impacts the engineering profession. If the Tinker has no impact on the profession, or in fact enhances the profession, that question is irrelevant.

Furthermore, that question becomes irrelevant if Blizzard simply puts a Tinker class in the game.

For the tinkers: you can make Sky Golems, you can make guns, you can make rockets, you can make robots. Everything a Tinker does.
As for the 'Siegecrafters' and 'Mekgineers', two things: one, they're titles simply, not classes; and two: they're bosses. By your rules, they do not compare to player classes.

Incorrect. Engineers (profession) cannot build what the Tinker can build (i.e. Hammer Tank, Gravity Bombs, etc.). That places the Tinker in the same arena as Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers, which are specialized or advanced types of engineers.

[Deleted]

They sound shit.

[Dispraise]

They sound shit.

Very apt. Congratulations. In three words you have just proven yourself a better authority on thematic design than dozens of forum dwellers around the world.

[Ellixen]

LoL!! Isn't that the definition of a fighter?

Wow you are dense. Fighting for his life, isn't the same as Fighting for a living which is the definition of a fighter/warrior/soldier.

[fixx]

That isn't Mekkatorque's profession, that's his title. Like "King" or "Warchief".

Nobody knows or cares what are gnomes' classes. They're all engineers IN LORE. High Tinker is a title.

Along with game design, you might want to look up the meaning of strawman as well.

I know perfectly well what it means: you're changing the subject with something remotely similar in order to put words in my mouth. Perfect example of strawman argument is your line I just quoted. When I caught you comparing lore and game mechanics decisions trying to imply they're freely interchangeable you changed the subject to my skill of game design or the lack of it.

It's common theme in all of your tinker threads having lore answers to game design concerns and vice versa when anybody questions or pokes holes into the silly notion of tinker being a viable upcoming class for WoW.

Again, all Tinkers, Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers are Engineers, yet all Engineers are not Tinkers, Siegecrafters, or Mekgineers.

I'm also really tired of the semantic arguments when you run out of anything smart to say.

The facts are really simple: because tinker class does not exist in WoW, all characters in the game that are referred to as tinkers, siegecrafters and mekgineers must be engineers since there's no better choice from existing options. I doubt they'd be all cooks or hunters or tailors either, or do you disagree with that assumption?

[Teriz]

Nobody knows or cares what are gnomes' classes. They're all engineers IN LORE. High Tinker is a title.

And Mekkatorque is called High Tinker Mekkatorque, not Tailor Mekkatorque.

Again, the classes are heroes. The professions are crafters and traders. The idea that they're equal lorewise is laughable.

It's common theme in all of your tinker threads having lore answers to game design concerns and vice versa when anybody questions or pokes holes into the silly notion of tinker being a viable upcoming class for WoW.

You have yet to prove that they aren't a viable upcoming class in WoW. Why? Because you have yet to show one valid way that a Tinker class impedes on the Engineering profession's ability to perform its role in the game.

The facts are really simple: because tinker class does not exist in WoW, all characters in the game that are referred to as tinkers, siegecrafters and mekgineers must be engineers since there's no better choice from existing options. I doubt they'd be all cooks or hunters or tailors either, or do you disagree with that assumption?

Simply because they're called Engineers doesn't mean that they're equivalent to the profession. Unless you actually believe that the Engineering profession transforms your Warrior or Druid into a Siegecrafter or a Tinker.

Do you actually believe that?

I look forward to your answer.

[Ielenia]

That question only matters if the Tinker negatively impacts the engineering profession. If the Tinker has no impact on the profession, or in fact enhances the profession, that question is irrelevant.

The question is not irrelevant. It's very much relevant to this. Just because you deny its existence doesn't meant the question is irrelevant. Just stop avoiding it and answer it. If you can really answer it, it'll likely put many anti-Tinkers to rest.

Furthermore, that question becomes irrelevant if Blizzard simply puts a Tinker class in the game.

That's a big 'if', isn't it? Because the Tinker is likely to never see the light of day, just as much.

Incorrect. Engineers (profession) cannot build what the Tinker can build (i.e. Hammer Tank, Gravity Bombs, etc.). That places the Tinker in the same arena as Siegecrafters, and Mekgineers, which are specialized or advanced types of engineers.

I proved they can. Ignore as much as you want, the facts prove they can.

[fixx]

That question only matters if the Tinker negatively impacts the engineering profession. If the Tinker has no impact on the profession, or in fact enhances the profession, that question is irrelevant.

Furthermore, that question becomes irrelevant if Blizzard simply puts a Tinker class in the game.

You have yet to prove that they aren't a viable upcoming class in WoW. Why?

Blizzard will never put the class into the game because it's the same as engineering profession thematically, not talking about game mechanics. It would be incredibly confusing to have a class and profession that does thematically exact same thing, so it negatively impacts the players.

Incorrect. Engineers (profession) cannot build what the Tinker can build (i.e. Hammer Tank, Gravity Bombs, etc.).

Engineers build sky golems and saronite bombs. Again same theme, different game mechanics.


And before you pull out the retarded enchanting card, tell me what enchanting recipes map to teleport, polymorph or food conjuring either thematically or in game mechanics.

Again, the classes are heroes. The professions are crafters and traders. The idea that they're equal lorewise is laughable.

Don't confuse game mechanics with lore.

Simply because they're called Engineers doesn't mean that they're equivalent to the profession. Unless you actually believe that the Engineering profession transforms your Warrior or Druid into a Siegecrafter or a Tinker.

What else would be the alternative to the engineering profession since there's no tinker class in the game? And nothing transfers player character classes into bosses, Siegecrafter is unique boss in the game, not a direct representative of any class or profession. But if you'd really need to shoehorn it into any class or profession currently existing in the game, it would be engineer with whole lot of unique crafting recipes that makes it a boss class critter.

[Ellixen]

And Mekkatorque is called High Tinker Mekkatorque, not Tailor Mekkatorque.

Again, the classes are heroes. The professions are crafters and traders. The idea that they're equal lorewise is laughable.



You have yet to prove that they aren't a viable upcoming class in WoW. Why? Because you have yet to show one valid way that a Tinker class impedes on the Engineering profession's ability to perform its role in the game.



Simply because they're called Engineers doesn't mean that they're equivalent to the profession. Unless you actually believe that the Engineering profession transforms your Warrior or Druid into a Siegecrafter or a Tinker.

Do you actually believe that?

I look forward to your answer.

So does that make Thrall or Garrosh <Warchief of the horde> their classes? High Chieftan is a class then? Oh oh I know Gallywix is the Trade prince class right?

[Hatecore]

And Mekkatorque is called High Tinker Mekkatorque, not Tailor Mekkatorque.

The High Tinker is the highest political office in Gnomeregan, and of the Gnomeregan Exiles. The gnomes have not had a proper king or queen for over four hundred years, instead preferring to elect their highest officials for set terms of service. (This form of government seems to be a meritocracy) These men and women hold grand titles (for example "King of the Gnomes") but only hold their power for set terms of office, after which they return to the work force. The ruler holds the seat of the High Tinker.

http://www.wowwiki.com/High_Tinker

Again, the classes are heroes. The professions are crafters and traders. The idea that they're equal lorewise is laughable.

Lore wise you have engineering and alchemist heroes. Please show me lore wise where it says professions are only crafters and traders.

You have yet to prove that they aren't a viable upcoming class in WoW. Why? Because you have yet to show one valid way that a Tinker class impedes on the Engineering profession's ability to perform its role in the game.

You have yet to prove that they are coming. All the evidence shows Tinkers Engineers lore wise.

Simply because they're called Engineers doesn't mean that they're equivalent to the profession. Unless you actually believe that the Engineering profession transforms your Warrior or Druid into a Siegecrafter or a Tinker.

Engineering profession is there for gameplay reasons.


You know paladins are only human and dwarf lore wise? other races refer to their paladins as Vindicator, Sunwalker, Blood knight

Kinda like how Engineers are referred to as Tinker or Siegecrafter

[Gothicshark]

Did you think Pandaren where the most popular race that people wanted implemented into the game?

At this point Lurk mode is off.

Been playing Warcraft since the 90's, Pandaren are the first Race ever to be Requested by the Fans, and they were included in WC3 because of that.

Back when WOW was in Beta, up to the mid point of TBC we had a 'Request Forum'
Of the Popular topics was the inclusion of differant Races into the game.

Even during Beta, the popular requested races in Order:

Goblin - (People wanted them to be a Nuetral Race)
Ogres
High Elves (Not the Blood Elves the Horde got)
Pandaren
Half-Ogres
Naga
Demons
Werewolves
4 legged Races
Dragons
Aliens from StarCraft (Yes people wanted races from SC)
Races from Diablo

See, I disagree with this. Sure mechanics only operate under certain perimeters, but new classes can find new and interesting ways of doing them.

Mechanics involve how the class works prior to adding in Art and effects.

Monks are Almost 100% identical to Rogues with Tanking and Healing, minus the Stealth Effect. The addition of Chi is the only thing Mechanically differant. Discribing the Names and how things apply is all in the Art.

Monks do evasion tanking (a rogue trick going back to Vanillia), with added Debuffs, and self heals and Self damage prevention buffs. Which spend the Unique Resource Chi.

Death Knight Tanking was Unique when it came out, because it was mechanically similar to a Arms Warrior. With lots of Debuffs, and Self Heals (Blood Tanking), (Unholy Tanking was very differant, it was more like Demonology Warlock Tanking, I miss being able to Unholy Tank)

This said, Monks did not bring much unique mechanics, but it put together known mechanics in an interesting way, with the added art (Or Theme) they work.

Now looking at Tinkers, nothing in any version I have seen discribed brings even one unique Mechanic. And the Art and theme is all based on Engineering.

Does this mean that as a theme Blizzard wont do it? No
But it does mean it is not very likely. Just like Demon Hunters, which they do want to make, which they haven't been able to make work for the last 7 years.

Yes, they wanted to add Demon Hunters During TBC, they could get it to work, and moved some of the art assests to Warlocks.

When Wrath was announced and they showed the Death Knight They promised they had other Hero Classes in the Works. During the Q&A's they talked about Demon Hunters, and how they had been working on them since WOW Alpha. Same with Necromancer, Runemaster, and Monk. They also said they used a lot of the development of Runemasters and Necromancers into the Death Knight. It was telling.

So is Tinker at all Likily? No a chance, the odds are what ever class is next, will be one that has been worked on for at least 6 years. It's really not easy adding a class to a theme park MMO. They have to consider the mechanics, and make sure in some way it is unique. The addition of new Resource managments in Cataclysm and Panderia have made it possible to do may be one more class.

Here is a list of Resource Managments. Not complete since many specs now have unique ones.

Mana <- One of the Origanals, Starts at max, increases per level, restores slowly in combat, restores quickly out of combat.

Rage <- One of the Origanals, starts at zero, Hard to increase max value, increases to max per attack or damage. Resets slowly to zero at a constant rate.

Energy <- One of the Origanals, Stars at max, hard to increase max value, quickly regenerates to max.

Focus <- New, Starts at Max, hard to increase max value, slowly regenerates to Max, Some ablities restore value.

--Secondary

'Rogue Dots' <- Applied to target by ablity one at a time, can be spent to do stronger ability

'Self Dots' <- Applied to self by ablities one at a time, can be spent to do stronger abilities

'Increase Meter' <- much like warrior rage, all abilities increase value so special attacks or stances can be activated.

'Balance Meter' <-doing one set of abilites swing a pendulum, to make the opposit abilites stronger.

'Timed Meter'(aka Runes) <- can spend one to make a stronger attack, restores quickly on a timer.

As you can see, these resources are the base mechanics. So far, nothing about the tinker brings anything new to the game. And it is focused on the two races no one ever takes seriously.

Granted, my logic on nothing new can be applied to every class suggestion at the moment. DKs, had Rune Power which was actually new, Monks brought Chi which is an unique application of self Dot when coupled with Energy.