Did Orc fans miss the point of a non Orc Warchief?

[docterfreeze]

chen and the player cleaned the poison out. The Loa god of death gave vol'jin(and the rest of the darkspear) their really OP regen back.

I thought vol'jin was just laying around for a little while before the player found him, if you get your throat slit you should be dead almost instantly and if you don't you won't be able to breathe and will die of lack of oxygen. Likely too quick for troll's regeneration to heal. During the razor hill questline it mentions that vol'jin's voice is still hard to understand because of his assassin run-in, so even though the player and chen did their best to heal him and even though the trolls have mad regen power, the cut was still severe enough to cause long lasting injury.

So once again, why didn't he die?

[Wildberry]

I've been follow this thread for a bit, and I have to say i'm a bit baffeled by Wildberry.

Then go back and follow this thread harder?

You want others to join in for a normal discussion, yet when they present their arguments you dismiss them as total falsehoods or lies, whitest only complaining about a character, instead of delivering any good arguments yourself. treat people as equals and they might do the same.

I've actually presented my arguments multiple times in multiple other threads, at this point I'm just trying to bait Vol'jin fans into an argument that they'll lose so they get it through their heads. I suggest you check my post history. The context of this entire conversation was "I have no problem with changing my mind, I just want real decent points", not a typical back and forth, it's his turn to argue for his opinion, it's my turn to counter his points. Sorry if that gave you any trouble.

I've only dismissed falsehoods and lies, if these weren't they would be able to be cited/located, they aren't. It would be one thing if I was dismissing interpretations of the lore as "falsehoods and lies", so far I've only dismissed things that have no backing.

You claim that Vol'jin isn't a tactical genius, because he was always aided when making decisions.

Actually, that's a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of the pont I'm making. Again, I suggest you reread the thread.

Without aid, or assistance Vol'jin's plans have failed. With aid and assistance Vol'jin can pull off some success, but it's nothing that would justify the classification of "tactical genius."

when would any sane person make extremely important decision on their own without any sort of consultation ? how would that every be intelligent ? even in the heat of battle commanders communicate and coordinate assaults. Very weak argument.

Yes, they do; however, not everyone has that luxury all the time. Sometimes there's split-second planning required that doesn't allow for consultation or discussion.

And let's look at characters that have recieved consultation, Thrall has and yet his standalone achievements are fine. Garrosh has and yet his standalone achievements (while not "good" on a moral scale) are genius (Theramore and forcing the Blood Elves into the Horde with the Divine Bell heist). Doomhammer did and yet his standalone achievements were fine.

All of these characters in Warcraft that can be called "tactical geniuses" have also faced situations where they haven't had the luxury of a conversation, and yet their "tactical genius" allowed them to succeed.

Vol'jin has a few "achievements" that pale in comparison to those by everyone else when he does have consultation, when he doesn't, he has a tendency to fail.

Not a tactical genius, sorry.

politics is inherently important, which seems to be vol'jins forte.

If we're going to argue this, which scenario would you prefer to argue? The Darkspear rebellion? Or members of the Alliance joining forces with him to prevent ties between the Troll Tribes? I have arguments prepared for both, I just want to make sure I'm typing for the right scenario.

I'm not a big fan of Vol'jin, but everything, literally everything is better than garrosh as warchief.

I see you took a page from the Darkvoltinx playbook, good thing Garrosh isn't the only Warchief to compare Vol'jin to, nor does a bad previous Warchief become the inherent qualifcation for one that would not otherwise be qualified for the position.

I'm not arguing that Garrosh was a better Warchief, in fact Garrosh himself isn't entirely relevant to this discussion at all, so no I won't deny that Garrosh failed the Horde.

[Jester Joe]

I thought vol'jin was just laying around for a little while before the player found him, if you get your throat slit you should be dead almost instantly and if you don't you won't be able to breathe and will die of lack of oxygen. Likely too quick for troll's regeneration to heal. During the razor hill questline it mentions that vol'jin's voice is still hard to understand because of his assassin run-in, so even though the player and chen did their best to heal him and even though the trolls have mad regen power, the cut was still severe enough to cause long lasting injury.

So once again, why didn't he die?

Pretty sure the player is there when Vol'jin gets "assassinated". Dagger in the Dark scenario?

All of these characters in Warcraft that can be called "tactical geniuses" have also faced situations where they haven't had the luxury of a conversation, and yet their "tactical genius" allowed them to succeed.

Vol'jin has a few "achievements" that pale in comparison to those by everyone else when he does have consultation, when he doesn't, he has a tendency to fail.

The real issue here I believe isn't that Vol'jin himself is a bad tactician, or that he's bad at anything, it's that Blizzard has been bad at showing him doing anything. He has giving quite a bit of sound advice and consoling it seems, and I highly doubt he'd be one of Thrall's most trusted advisers if he literally has accomplished nothing. I think everyone agrees Blizzard hasn't done a great job showing him doing anything, but he definitely has. Like the whole rebellion, he was the one who put it together, he helped plan it all, yet Blizzard shows none of it basically.

[docterfreeze]

Pretty sure the player is there when Vol'jin gets "assassinated". Dagger in the Dark scenario?

Alright, but still, getting your throat slit is instant or very quick death.

[Traveler Voltin]

I thought vol'jin was just laying around for a little while before the player found him, if you get your throat slit you should be dead almost instantly and if you don't you won't be able to breathe and will die of lack of oxygen. Likely too quick for troll's regeneration to heal. During the razor hill questline it mentions that vol'jin's voice is still hard to understand because of his assassin run-in, so even though the player and chen did their best to heal him and even though the trolls have mad regen power, the cut was still severe enough to cause long lasting injury.

So once again, why didn't he die?

i think they guy was going more for the poison killing him(slow and painful death) then actually trying to kill him with the stab.

[bloodkin]

Then go back and follow this thread harder?



I've actually presented my arguments multiple times in multiple other threads, at this point I'm just trying to bait Vol'jin fans into an argument that they'll lose so they get it through their heads. I suggest you check my post history. The context of this entire conversation was "I have no problem with changing my mind, I just want real decent points", not a typical back and forth, it's his turn to argue for his opinion, it's my turn to counter his points. Sorry if that gave you any trouble.

I've only dismissed falsehoods and lies, if these weren't they would be able to be cited/located, they aren't. It would be one thing if I was dismissing interpretations of the lore as "falsehoods and lies", so far I've only dismissed things that have no backing.



Actually, that's a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of the pont I'm making. Again, I suggest you reread the thread.

Without aid, or assistance Vol'jin's plans have failed. With aid and assistance Vol'jin can pull off some success, but it's nothing that would justify the classification of "tactical genius."



Yes, they do; however, not everyone has that luxury all the time. Sometimes there's split-second planning required that doesn't allow for consultation or discussion.

And let's look at characters that have recieved consultation, Thrall has and yet his standalone achievements are fine. Garrosh has and yet his standalone achievements (while not "good" on a moral scale) are genius (Theramore and forcing the Blood Elves into the Horde with the Divine Bell heist). Doomhammer did and yet his standalone achievements were fine.

All of these characters in Warcraft that can be called "tactical geniuses" have also faced situations where they haven't had the luxury of a conversation, and yet their "tactical genius" allowed them to succeed.

Vol'jin has a few "achievements" that pale in comparison to those by everyone else when he does have consultation, when he doesn't, he has a tendency to fail.

Not a tactical genius, sorry.



If we're going to argue this, which scenario would you prefer to argue? The Darkspear rebellion? Or members of the Alliance joining forces with him to prevent ties between the Troll Tribes? I have arguments prepared for both, I just want to make sure I'm typing for the right scenario.



I see you took a page from the Darkvoltinx playbook, good thing Garrosh isn't the only Warchief to compare Vol'jin to, nor does a bad previous Warchief become the inherent qualifcation for one that would not otherwise be qualified for the position.

I'm not arguing that Garrosh was a better Warchief, in fact Garrosh himself isn't entirely relevant to this discussion at all, so no I won't deny that Garrosh failed the Horde.

First of all, I am not going to go trough your post history, this argument with you is not worth the effort, and i will not go look for evidence which would be against me, accurate or otherwise, do that yourself. Also, baiting vol'jin loyalists is not very mature manner of discussion.

About the whole tactical genius, this discussion is rather quickly becoming about the definition of what an actual tactical mastermind is, and i am not going onto that one, it's also completely off topic.

Vol'jin might not be the likes of great orcish warlords such as Thrall, but then again, who actually likes a mary sue char ? He as some achievements, not al very impressing, but he has a way better understanding of the horde that Thrall had built before TBC, at which point Vol'jin was a seasoned darkspear leader, and garrosh just popping around the corner, and it seems that during the course of Wotlk it seems that Garrosh has a very hard time grasping what Thrall had worked for.

In fact, this discussion is still all about garrosh and his failure, but also about the unproven Vol'jin, whom seems to be a 'late bloomer' regarding character development a in depth growth, he didn't have any chance to shine, because other characters where way to busy being in the spotlights.

[Veritas94]

I don't mind having a non-orc warchief, but I wish that Cairne was still alive. He would've made a great warchief.

[Wildberry]

The real issue here I believe isn't that Vol'jin himself is a bad tactician.

Zengu's retrieval of Trol'kalar, The loss of the Echo Isles, Vol'jin's assault on the gates of Orgrimmar all disagree with that.

it's that Blizzard has been bad at showing him doing anything.

Because Vol'jin hasn't done much. They could have elaborated on his role here or there, but he hasn't participated in a lot of the activities and comes up far outranked by other Horde leaders like Thrall, Garrosh, Cairne, Saurfang, Eitrigg, Hamuul Sylvanas and even Lor'themar.

and I highly doubt he'd be one of Thrall's most trusted advisers if he literally has accomplished nothing.

He's one of Thrall's advisors, sure; however, in The Shattering Thrall mentions Eitrigg and Cairne specifically to Garrosh, he makes no mention of Vol'jin.

Like the whole rebellion, he was the one who put it together, he helped plan it all

Here's a few problems I find with the "HE LED THE REBELLION" argument:

The Rebellion itself wasn't a work of political genius on Vol'jin's part. Garrosh was tearing the Horde apart. Vol'jin suffered an assassination attempt and was previously known as a critic of Garrosh, to the point where he considered leaving, twice; Lor'themar was negotiating with the Alliance following Garrosh's disregard for the lives of the Blood Elves; Sylvanas and the Forsaken never had much love for Garrosh and while not openly conspiring would have jumped on any chance to get rid of him and hopefully loosen the Horde's grip on Forsaken affairs (Undercity Kor'kron and the banning of the Plague); Gallywix was sending letters around the Horde during the time of Garrosh's Pandaria campaign, worried about whether or not Garrosh would bankrupt the Horde; Baine and the Tauren were the most loyal non-Orc race to Garrosh, though they held no love for Garrosh or his policies and stayed out of respect for Cairne's memory and their peoples commitment to Thrall and the Horde's ideals; Some Orcs were displeased with Hellscream as well, the Kor'kron under Malkorok were frequently employed to silence political dissent (Such as the Mushroom Vendor), residents of the Cleft of Shadow in particular held no love for him and there were some big names that stood in opposition to Garrosh such as Eitrigg, Saurfang and Thrall.

Overall Vol'jin didn't convince anyone to rebel against Garrosh, they were well on their way to doing that, as is most prominently featured with Lor'themar's intentions on the Isle of Thunder, and Gallywix's intentions in Pandaria.

Instead he was a figurehead for the other Horde races to unite under, he was the first to openly rebel, have you ever considered why that might be? What are the consequences for committing treason? Usually death. Vol'jin had already been given a death sentence, as such he faced no increase in risk for openly rebelling against Garrosh.

he helped plan it all

The Forsaken and Blood Elves seem to be working in conjunction with and not under Vol'jin. It seems as if they saw an oppurtunity for a united front against a leader they both were working against and took the oppurtunity presented by it. In fact, it was the forces of Lor'themar and Sylvanas thar really saved the day considering the Iron Juggernaut had effectively halted Vol'jin's siege, that's usually not something detailed in a plan.

And let's not forget that the main reason for the Rebellion's success, the aid from the Alliance wasn't Vol'jin's idea, in fact he was rather hesitant to do so and proved to be combatative to the Alliance member sent to negotiate with him. It was Baine that suggested he contact the Alliance. So I really fail to see any political genius behind the rebellion.

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First of all, I am not going to go trough your post history, this argument with you is not worth the effort, and i will not go look for evidence which would be against me, accurate or otherwise, do that yourself. Also, baiting vol'jin loyalists is not very mature manner of discussion.

Well, again I don't necessarily need to considering the context of this argument is "Prove to me that Vol'jin isn't terrible" rather than "Let me prove to you that Vol'jin is terrible." The context of discussions is key here.

As for baiting Vol'jin loyalists, I fail to see what bearing it has on maturity. I've presented my arguments to and countered the arguments of certain posters here to the point where they hold a position that they themselves can't even defend. I'm simply asking for them to defend their viewpoints. Doesn't seem very immature to me.

About the whole tactical genius, this discussion is rather quickly becoming about the definition of what an actual tactical mastermind is, and i am not going onto that one, it's also completely off topic.

Well actually the term was "Tactical genius", but no it really isn't becoming about the definition of that, rather, whether or not Vol'jin qualifies.

Vol'jin might not be the likes of great orcish warlords such as Thrall, but then again, who actually likes a mary sue char ?

There are a few glaring problems with this statement, allow me to point them out:

-You're incorrectly using the term Mary Sue, Thrall has faults, Mary Sues don't.
-You're speaking of achievements, Thrall's achievements happened before Cataclysm, which was the period where one could attempt to argue that he became a "Mary Sue".
-You're using the word "Warlords" the implication being more than one, meaning that you're referencing more than just Thrall. While Thrall wasn't technically a Mary Sue, he certainly is the closest when compared to the other great Orcs. Since these Orcs that you referenced are not Mary Sues, your ending question, which was designed to cast characters in a bad light, doesn't apply.

but he has a way better understanding of the horde that Thrall had built before TBC

Whether or not his ideas coincide with Thrall's are irrelevant to whether or not he's qualified for Warchief. Simply agreeing with someone doesn't earn one a throne.

at which point Vol'jin was a seasoned darkspear leader

Vol'jin became the leader of a small band of exiles that were never truly tested halfway through WCIII. I really wouldn't use the word "seasoned" there.

nd it seems that during the course of Wotlk it seems that Garrosh has a very hard time grasping what Thrall had worked for.

Again, you're trying to bring Garrosh into a discussion where he isn't relevant. Garrosh knew damn well what Thrall worked for, he just disagreed with it. He saw starving Orcs, Non-Orcs who were draining the Horde's resources which prevented them from truly dealing with an ever-encroaching Alliance, and formed some opinions, whether or not those opinions were right or wrong has no bearing on this discussion.

but also about the unproven Vol'jin

Not "also", it is "just" about Vol'jin. You can compare Vol'jin to others, but the focus of the discussion is on Vol'jin himself, not who he's being compared to.

whom seems to be a 'late bloomer' regarding character development a in depth growth

He may not have an entire RTS game's worth of character development, but he's hardly underdeveloped. He's had his oppurtunities to shine, and his failures were the result of his own incompetence, not because other characters were too busy being the spotlight, as you go on to claim.

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I don't mind having a non-orc warchief, but I wish that Cairne was still alive. He would've made a great warchief.

Nearly anyone would make a better Warchief than Vol'jin. Cairne, Baine, Thrall, Eitrigg, Varok Saurfang, Lor'themar Theron...

[Deleted]

Alright, but still, getting your throat slit is instant or very quick death.

well then it's a good thing he only got stabbed in the back

[Naiattavain]

I'm glad Vul'jin is the new warchief the leader of the darkspear. with everything garrosh was doing and you think it wasn't coming back @ him your all dead wrong about hating vuljin. Vuljin is going to bring back peace so that we may survive.

[Wildberry]

I'm glad Vul'jin is the new warchief the leader of the darkspear. with everything garrosh was doing and you think it wasn't coming back @ him your all dead wrong about hating vuljin. Vuljin is going to bring back peace so that we may survive.

...What? That sure is a compelling argument you have there.

[Chainreactor]

So much hate against Vol'jin Q_Q
Ive been rooting for Warchief Vol'jin long before MoP and its gonna be interesting to see how the story develops going into WoD

PS: Lor'Themar is yet to prove his loyalty to the Horde

[Sal the Shieldhog]

So much hate against Vol'jin Q_Q
Ive been rooting for Warchief Vol'jin long before MoP and its gonna be interesting to see how the story develops going into WoD

PS: Lor'Themar is yet to prove his loyalty to the Horde

He already has. Multiple times.

[Naiattavain]

The Thalassian Empire is separate from the horde and alliance entirely.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

as of now the Thalassian empire is separate from the horde and alliance entirely.

I'm fairly certain that Quel'thalas is firmly part of the Horde - now more than ever.

[Wildberry]

The Thalassian Empire is separate from the horde and alliance entirely.

Well, no it's not, it's firmly in the Horde... It's also not an empire.

PS: Lor'Themar is yet to prove his loyalty to the Horde

He actually has...

[Naiattavain]

only reason why is that thalassian empire was betrayed; but go tell that to every blood elf who managed to kill his own traitorous leader and deliver justice to arthas. after garrosh now that the horde is weaker now than ever with the alliance swooping in to slay every citizen in orgrimmar? the thalassian empire is best independant from the alliance and horde for what is to come.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

only reason why is that thalassian empire was betrayed; but go tell that to every blood elf who managed to kill his own traitorous leader and deliver justice to arthas. after garrosh now that the horde is weaker now than ever with the alliance swooping in to slay every citizen in orgrimmar? the thalassian empire is best independant from the alliance and horde for what is to come.

Except that doesn't change the fact that they're firmly with the Horde right now.

[Wildberry]

only reason why is that thalassian empire was betrayed; but go tell that to every blood elf who managed to kill his own traitorous leader and deliver justice to arthas. after garrosh now that the horde is weaker now than ever with the alliance swooping in to slay every citizen in orgrimmar? the thalassian empire is best independant from the alliance and horde for what is to come.

Alright, so you're a "Vul'jin" supporter, who believes that the Blood Elves have an Empire, and believes the Blood Elves are stronger out of the Horde.

Do you care enough to even attempt to back any of this garbage up? I could really use some entertainment right about now.

[Ghostile]

Anyone sane enough to write, can see blood elves have no empire.
Anyone sane enough to see this, should see why vol'jin was to become the warchief.

Main problem with this seems to be "HE'S NOT GREEN AND MUSCULAR! I LOVE SEEING GREEN MUSCLES!"

We should be just happy it's no more Garrosh "major-fuck up" Hellscream