The Backstab Situation

[dak1]

Btw just to clarify using backstab (40 energy) to kill a 5hp totem is more efficient to use hemo (35 energy) so if you're using a higher energy cost ability for a 5hp totem then yes you're doing it wrong. Duh killing totems is good and destroying totems in pvp is a great way to screw over a shaman. But complaining that you can't inefficiently-wrong-move-anyways backstab a totem means that yes: you're doing it wrong.

Are you still trolling me on this? I already answered this once:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=45778/gl...-totemic-vigor
Glyph of Totemic Vigor: Increases the health of your totems by 5% of your maximum health.

Any good Resto Shaman is going to be using this glyph, so you're going to be looking at totems with at least 30,000 hp.

Add that to the bug where Healing Stream Totem heals itself (http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/24...g-or-intended/) and it can actually be a problem. There's also totems like Fire Elemental Totem with 150k+ life.

Now stop trolling.

[Ryme]

You realize that Sub is mainly a PvP spec and they still have to balance around PvP as well...?

As proved in Cataclysm, it can also be a rewarding and highly competitive pve spec. Being good in one area should not make you unable to play the other, that's bad design.

[dak1]

As proved in Cataclysm, it can also be a rewarding and highly competitive pve spec. Being good in one area should not make you unable to play the other, that's bad design.

Not to mention that the positional requirement on Backstab hardly has any impact on balance in PvP or PvE (again, see the changes to Ambush and Shred).

[Sesshou]

Not to mention that the positional requirement on Backstab hardly has any impact on balance in PvP or PvE (again, see the changes to Ambush and Shred).

You're joking right? It makes it impossible to balance for PvE because they end up trying to balance it assuming 100% back up time while including encounters where that isn't likely.

While low in overall number, there are fights where you are forced to stand in front for a long period that butcher sub's viability. That is why they changed the other positional attacks... so you wouldn't get screwed more than any other melee by being in front.

It is also a giant quality of life issue on mobs like Sun on protectors or the archer guy on paragons that are essentially untanked and turn constantly.

Then there is always tanks moving/turning the mobs/boss. Our tanks like to turn Norushen and Malk quite a bit, sometimes quickly, and sometimes on Malk when I am still snared. And also because of ranged dps pulling aggro momentarily on dark shamans on the pull, the mobs reposition when the tank gets them back (and then makes sure he isn't getting hit in the back) and (could just be me), I have a hard time visually seeing the way the mob is facing a lot of the time when its in a stack of mobs with 20 people ae'ing.

Positional requirements are a giant f u. I don't think you have been trying sub enough in raids if you don't feel otherwise. Every feral I've raided with has felt the exact same. You get constantly bent over only to even out with everyone else when the mechanic actually works fine.

[Kael]

Positional requirements are a giant f u. I don't think you have been trying sub enough in raids if you don't feel otherwise. Every feral I've raided with has felt the exact same. You get constantly bent over only to even out with everyone else when the mechanic actually works fine.

The post you're responding to is specifically geared toward WoD -- it mentions losing positional requirements on everything but backstab. Yes, not being able to backstab is not ideal, but once you've got Ambush and shred from the front, it's a relatively minor DPS loss for a larger amount of consternation. As the post you're quoting is arguing, having the positioning stuck on backstab is wasted -- it doesn't accomplish what people say it's intended to do in any significant fashion (raise the skillcap rather than skillfloor) and even in failing that, will have a lower impact than it does currently due to upcoming changes.

I don't think dak1 disagrees with you at all, although the wording in the last short post was somewhat ambiguous. This post should make it seem more relevant.

[delicousaids]

Backstab has always just been.... eh.

Personally I feel Backstab and Hemorrhage should be merged, and a new ability be brought in to replace Backstab as a combopoint builder.

Backstab replaces Eviscerate as a Subtlety finisher, and when you use it, you jump behind the target, backstab them and jump back to your starting position. The Backstab applies some sort of minor bleed/damage buffer effect.

There you go, problem solved. Thank me later.

[Verain]

The lack of ability to stab from the front is clearly being kept for flavor. I think this version of backstab would allow sub to shine on every fight melee can play in I can recall- possibly with the exception of Ultraxxion- maybe.

Now that they are backing off on deleting premed I think it's mostly fair to call sub possibly improved in WoD. They are fixing the longstanding bug with Crimson Tempest (it's called out as a change to rogues, lol!), and we are seeing in the list of passives some boosts to builders, but the only finisher boost is a lower energy cost. This should help us with pvp damage a bit, as our damage ratio skews higher to builders in there. Meanwhile, backstab, normally situational in pvp, will become usable in more situations.


It's hard to say whether pvp will actually get better- we need to get closer for that. But with less CCs and dance still able to multidot stuns and silences, I think it's fair to say that the framework is mostly the same but better.


For PvE, we don't seem to be losing anything. We keep rupture, slice and dice, hemo, backstab, eviscerate. Cautiously excited about sub not getting mangled or anything.

[Manthis]

This argument makes absolutely no sense. Rogues don't even make an attempt to do comparable sustained damage in competitive play. Rogues will be the lowest damage output in most arena and RBG matches. Our threat only comes when dancing, which is using Ambush, or mini-dances, which also use Ambush.

Even in PvE, when you're sitting on a target non-stop, Subt's damage often comes from 1) Melee, 2) Eviscerate, 3) Ambush, and then 4) Backstab. And in PvP, it's even more in favor of Ambush, since you're constantly going for restealths.

And Shred, the Backstab clone for Feral Druids, had its positional requirement completely removed, and I don't see anybody lowering their damage.

Backstab still has a positional requirement because of its name only, full stop. If you think otherwise, then please explain Shred.

I'll explain why Shred gets its positional requirement removed; Cat Mangle is gone come WoD, meaning they wouldn't have any main CP builder when soloing or facing a boss.

[Wow]

I'll explain why Shred gets its positional requirement removed; Cat Mangle is gone come WoD, meaning they wouldn't have any main CP builder when soloing or facing a boss.

Mangle was removed because of shred losing it's positional not the other way around...

[Manthis]

Mangle was removed because of shred losing it's positional not the other way around...

Uh, no. Mangle got removed off cat due to the ability pruning. Same way Swipe got removed from bear, rogues losing a CD etc etc.

[dak1]

Uh, no. Mangle got removed off cat due to the ability pruning. Same way Swipe got removed from bear, rogues losing a CD etc etc.

Shred (40 Energy): Shred the target, causing 500% damage plus 78 to the target. Must be behind the target. Awards 1 combo point. Deals 20% additional damage against bleeding targets.

Mangle (35 Energy): Mangle the target for 500% normal damage plus 78. Awards 1 combo point.

I'd say Shred losing its positional requirement certainly played a role in Mangle being removed. The two are virtual clones of each other at that point, and you'd almost never use Mangle anyway.

[Karsh]

Backstab has always just been.... eh.

Personally I feel Backstab and Hemorrhage should be merged, and a new ability be brought in to replace Backstab as a combopoint builder.

Backstab replaces Eviscerate as a Subtlety finisher, and when you use it, you jump behind the target, backstab them and jump back to your starting position. The Backstab applies some sort of minor bleed/damage buffer effect.

There you go, problem solved. Thank me later.

I really like this idea mostly because it also adds some much needed flashyness to rogue.

shame I don't think blizzard will deal with backstab intelligently and will go on thinking what they did was just fine as it is.

[Manthis]

I'd say Shred losing its positional requirement certainly played a role in Mangle being removed. The two are virtual clones of each other at that point, and you'd almost never use Mangle anyway.

Actually, Mangle is their main CP generator at this time (has been almost all expansion). Only time you'd use Shred is during high energy regen (Berserk, Heroism etc).

But that's besides the point. Point is, Blizzard is going remove abilities from all classes, while trying to differentiate them (just take a look at mage changes, heck even rogue). Knowing that bears also use Mangle, logically it makes sense that they removed cat Mangle and go from there.

Sure, they could remove Mangle from bears, but then they'd have to rework something like Maul to work like Mangle for bears. And in my opinion, thematically Mangle fits bears better than cats anyway.

Need to try to look a the whole picture instead of just comparing one ability to another.

[dak1]

I'd say Shred losing its positional requirement certainly played a role in Mangle being removed.

Need to try to look a the whole picture instead of just comparing one ability to another.

Emphasis added in first quote. You're putting arguments in people's mouths and then refuting them. I clearly never said it was the sole reason.

[Sesshou]

Uh, no. Mangle got removed off cat due to the ability pruning. Same way Swipe got removed from bear, rogues losing a CD etc etc.

Yeah, it got pruned because with the positional requirement gone, both perform the exact same function. Its like how assassination rogues lost eviscerate.

[Kael]

Let's steer the conversation back to backstab.

If you've got a reason to bring up how shred and backstab are similar, or the changes to them are different (they are), that's fine, but unless it leads back to backstab, talking about shred development is off-topic (and yes, cat-WoD-mangle is to cats as eviscerate is to assassination; it was made (is being made) redundant).

[Nouk]

Let's steer the conversation back to backstab.

If you've got a reason to bring up how shred and backstab are similar, or the changes to them are different (they are), that's fine, but unless it leads back to backstab, talking about shred development is off-topic (and yes, cat-WoD-mangle is to cats as eviscerate is to assassination; it was made (is being made) redundant).

I think the main-reason it was compared to Shred in the first place is to demonstrate how disfunctional a pos. requirement can be when it gets removed without touching the ability in any other way. As someone said, you only used Shred in "high-regen" phases, otherwise Mangle was used because it was cheaper/more energy efficient: that in itself could be an interesting dynamic to modify gameplay, but the positional requirement has no impact besides annoyance.

Lets take a Rogue-example to illustrate: In T14, i tried to stick with Sub although Mut was all the rage. Realizing that Anticipation was worthless to me with low Haste (and that i could time my HAT-Procs) i tested Shuriken Toss more intensively. After some basic math, it became clear it had the same Damage-per-Energy as BS (even pretty close with the 2P Bonus), but produced around 10-20% more Combo Points. The real kicker was, same as ferals, to weave in Backstabs when you couldn't burn enough energy with ST only. Assassination later realized this potential, too, along with the PvP Community, with ST getting destroyed as a result.

The real joy of this was the flexibility and additional complexity: Backstab weaving was optimal, but optional. I didn't fret about when i couldn't BS.
With Shuriken Toss, i had the most fun experience as subtlety ever. No artificial requirements, just going full-on ninja. No cursing at my tank, no running around adds when i can't see their direction thanks to particle-clusterfuck. My damage was competitive, but not broken. I still tried to be behind bosses without getting spammed error messages. It was still optimal.

[dak1]

With Shuriken Toss, i had the most fun experience as subtlety ever. No artificial requirements, just going full-on ninja.

I don't know how many times I've felt like certain Rogue talents should just be baseline (like Shuriken Toss and Shadowstep). It does just feel better, even if it's not really changing the balance much. I think the positionals on Backstab and Ambush are the same way... removing them doesn't change the balance much, but it does feel much better to not have to deal with them.

My two biggest issues with the notes I've seen so far are Enhanced Premed (which is a nerf), and not getting the positional removed from Backstab after it was seemingly confirmed it would (which in a way, also feels like a nerf). I'm hopeful the Premed issue will be addressed, as Celestalon seems to have said they're aware of it, and despite the lack of feedback, I'm really hoping this next round of patch notes addresses the Backstab issue too.

There's so many issues with the Rogue class, it's lack of variety, viability, and just how dated some of its mechanics are, I really hope we don't have to fight this entire expansion on silly issues like this and can move on to some of the bigger issues that have been holding the class back.

[Nouk]

There's so many issues with the Rogue class, it's lack of variety, viability, and just how dated some of its mechanics are, I really hope we don't have to fight this entire expansion on silly issues like this and can move on to some of the bigger issues that have been holding the class back.

This expansion i won't settle for compromise. In MoP Beta, i saw similiar issues with Crimson Tempest and thought to myself "Oh man, don't be silly, im sure they will fix it a few patches in." Nope. I always leveled my rogue just to be disappointed and reroll since Burning Crusade. This time i won't get my hopes up. If they go for it, yay, if they don't, go Monk or quit.

What irks me most is that people justify bad design by effectiveness. Yeah, duh, rogues are consistently top melee DPS, that alone doesn't make them fun (besides for min-maxers who focus on numbers.). Gameplay does.

[Deleted]

I find playing rogue quite enjoying.
Muti with his slow-paced playstyle is just great for learning new encounter.
Combat on the other hand is just super fast and has awesome cleave.
Sub is still the best specc. It just feels perfect in a single target scenario.

Backstab is maybe annoying but its also part of mastering your class. It promotes communication with your tanks and you need to know when the boss may turn around.
With the extension coming, it will be so easy to hit backstab