Do you think Stance of the Gladiator will successfully allow prot to be viable dps?

[Eace]

I like the idea very much, and I hope it makes it to live. But they are essentially creating a Feral 2.0.

[CollisionTD]

Is this with the current abilities or datamined WoD modifiers etc? It sounds shockingly good at first glance but with prot already aiming for to do 75% of what fury/arms is capable of it's ony 20% increase while not capable of actively tanking.

Datamined WoD modifiers, which also includes all of the perks from leveling. There are a few grey areas where I wasn't sure how the stance would function, such as does it get rage from white attacks or periodically like defensive stance? (Currently it's set to act like defensive stance)... also, some of the datamined stuff says that it only grants rage while in defensive stance (Revenge, shield slam), but I'm assuming that they will grant rage in gladiator stance as well. I also assumed that the buff from shield charge acted very similarly to shield block, in that it cannot stack to grant 60% extra damage, and that it doesn't go away after using 1 ability.

There are likely some other assumptions I had to make due to lack of information, but I can't remember them right now.

Oh, I also stuck a set of fury gear on it (Changing out weapon/shield) just to make sure the comparison was as close as possible.

Also, readiness sucks and I don't know how they could fix it for gladiator stance, as it would likely still suck even if it worked on the same abilities as fury. Overall all secondary stats are terrible compared to strength, but I expect there will be more changes for gladiator stance that will likely change that.

[Requiel]

Overall all secondary stats are terrible compared to strength, but I expect there will be more changes for gladiator stance that will likely change that.

what are you talking about?

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I like the idea very much, and I hope it makes it to live. But they are essentially creating a Feral 2.0.

They are, but there's no issues with this. We can't switch stances in combat, so there's no, "Hey Shadow, you aren't tanking, go Gladiator during this phase for extra DPS."

It'd be like if old Feral druids couldn't shift forms in combat.

what are you talking about?

Well then. THat seems a bit... Different.

[CollisionTD]

Yeah, like I said, it's still alpha development for WoW and Beta at best for simcraft, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm just hoping to have it fully working for when WoW beta rolls out so we can complain about stuff more effectively.

Also take into account that secondaries for all specs are like this at the beginning of an expansion. Fury is sitting at 1.5 SEP for crit at the moment, but it started out around 0.8-0.9 for TG.

[apepi]

I think it could, but not sure if it will ever beat arms or fury.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I think it could, but not sure if it will ever beat arms or fury.

Celestalon said they plan to balance it to compete, so we have his word (for now, at least).

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, like I said, it's still alpha development for WoW and Beta at best for simcraft, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm just hoping to have it fully working for when WoW beta rolls out so we can complain about stuff more effectively.

Also take into account that secondaries for all specs are like this at the beginning of an expansion. Fury is sitting at 1.5 SEP for crit at the moment, but it started out around 0.8-0.9 for TG.

True. I'm interested to see how thing'll work out once we know more.

I really need to learn to do this myself so I don't have to wait for you guys to do it

[Traveler Voltin]

well if it works i guess i will have more of a reason to have 4 horde warriors.

[Artorius]

I've implemented 99% of fury/arms changes and 80%~ of prot/gladiator for WoD simcraft.

Here's what I can tell you so far:

1: At level 100 in 580 equal gear, gladiator stance dps is around 10% lower than TG Fury. Optimizations with the action list could make up this difference.
2: It's not very dynamic. I'm getting an arms vibe while messing around with the action list, as in I can shift things around quite a bit and only lose 2-3% dps.
3: AoE/cleave kinda suck right now.


Here's the extremely early action list for gladiator that I've put together, It'll very likely look completely different in a week but I thought I'd give you an idea of how it's shaping out. Notably I haven't done crap with cooldown timing other than making sure the ability is used.

actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.health.pct<20
actions+=/shield_charge,if=buff.shield_charge.down
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=buff.ultimatum.up|(buff.shield_charge.up&rage>50&target.health.pct>20)
actions+=/bloodbath,if=enabled
actions+=/heroic_leap
actions+=/shield_slam,if=buff.shield_charge.up|cooldown.shield_charge.remains>3|rage<30
actions+=/execute,if=rage>50
actions+=/dragon_roar
actions+=/revenge,if=buff.shield_charge.up|cooldown.shield_charge.remains>2|rage<30
actions+=/thunder_clap
actions+=/devastate,if=cooldown.shield_slam.remains>1

Holy smoke Collision, if someone else in this community is going to receive a tribute item like this, you should be the first name in Blizzard's list...

[Warriorsarri]

You make it seem like he's doing all the work!




(He is doing all the work tho, the rest of us are just shamelessly stealing his stuff and posting it here)

[CollisionTD]

Holy smoke Collision, if someone else in this community is going to receive a tribute item like this, you should be the first name in Blizzard's list...

Aw, thanks.

I'd love to take credit for it, but without the programming of 5-10+ other people (Who are just vastly better than me at it), I'd be sitting here twiddling my thumbs wondering about gladiator stance as well. I'm the 12 year old kid playing with a a blowtorch, and hopefully I don't burn the house down.

[Deleted]

Hmm, shouldn't revenge be above DR and maybe execute on your priority list Collision? Like if shield charge is down due to cd this is when you would want to fill those gcd?
I have a feeling that headlong rush with some haste plateu will be as good as crit or better for gladiator.

[CollisionTD]

Hmm, shouldn't revenge be above DR and maybe execute on your priority list Collision? Like if shield charge is down due to cd this is when you would want to fill those gcd?
I have a feeling that headlong rush with some haste plateu will be as good as crit or better for gladiator.

Here's a newer version of that list, which has that in it.

actions=charge
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/blood_fury,if=buff.bloodbath.up|buff.avatar.up|buff.shield_charge.up
actions+=/berserking,if=buff.bloodbath.up|buff.avatar.up|buff.shield_charge.up
actions+=/arcane_torrent,if=buff.bloodbath.up|buff.avatar.up|buff.shield_charge.up
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.health.pct<20&buff.bloodbath.up|target.time_to_die<=25
actions+=/shield_charge,if=buff.shield_charge.down
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=buff.ultimatum.up|(buff.shield_charge.up&rage>50&target.health.pct>20)|rage>110
actions+=/bloodbath,if=talent.bloodbath.enabled
actions+=/avatar,if=talent.avatar.enabled
actions+=/heroic_leap,if=buff.bloodbath.up|cooldown.bloodbath.remains>5
actions+=/shield_slam
actions+=/revenge,if=buff.shield_charge.up&rage<100
actions+=/execute,if=rage>100|target.time_to_die<12|(rage>50&(buff.bloodbath.up|buff.avatar.up))
actions+=/storm_bolt,if=talent.storm_bolt.enabled&((buff.bloodbath.up|cooldown.bloodbath.remains>7))
actions+=/dragon_roar,if=talent.dragon_roar.enabled&((buff.bloodbath.up|cooldown.bloodbath.remains>10))
actions+=/devastate,if=cooldown.shield_slam.remains>1

(Requiel helped out some with this too.)

Kind of surprisingly, Storm bolt seems to be the best talent in its tier for Gladiator. Storm bolt + bloodbath looks to be a good combination.

[Requiel]

Hmm, shouldn't revenge be above DR and maybe execute on your priority list Collision? Like if shield charge is down due to cd this is when you would want to fill those gcd?
I have a feeling that headlong rush with some haste plateu will be as good as crit or better for gladiator.

Headlong rush at the moment is broken for prot warriors due to sword and board resetting shield slam half the time before it reaches its cool down.

[Archimtiros]

Its obviously revenge will get changed to proc by other means, whether via S+B or another mechanic.

[CollisionTD]

Yeah they'll have to either remove sword and board procs from gladiator (This may be the case already, but we can't tell from spell data) or change HLR.

One thought I had is that thunderclap is intended to be the global-based rage dump for gladiator. The damage is buffed in gladiator stance, and HLR only reduces thunder clap, and ONLY for gladiator. I thought it was unusual that HLR reduces 2 abilities for glad/prot/arms but only 1 for fury, but maybe it's actually 1 ability for all 4 specs. Buff the damage of thunder clap (only for gladiator) so that it's more rage efficient than heroic strike, but not to the point where it hits harder than shield slam.

That gives gladiator some oomph in the aoe department, as well as something that will show contrast vs a regular protection warrior.

[Bosen]

I hope Blizzard makes it work. I'd love that option.
I'd love to see how the people who claim they know for sure it won't be a viable dps option react. Tears, or rage? Probably both.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I hope Blizzard makes it work. I'd love that option.
I'd love to see how the people who claim they know for sure it won't be a viable dps option react. Tears, or rage? Probably both.

"UGH! Why am I being forced to play sword and board spec?! ITS SO SHITTY BLIZZ."

"Actually you aren't, Fury is doing slightly better and both Arms and Fury have much better burst."

"SHITTY DEVS!"

"But -"

"SHIT!"

[Fugus]

It'd be like if old Feral druids couldn't shift forms in combat.

Actually this isn't the same.

They are actually attempting to make it equal to Arms and Fury DPS in the same gear and spec.

I am an old school feral druid. But never played MoP, quit before then.

During TBC it took a complete change of gear between cat and gear and couldn't be 100% of either in the same spec due to the power shifting requirement for top end DPS and to do top DPS you lost about 30% of your armor. But you could do a hybrid spec where you were like 95% of tank and 85% of DPS. But couldn't be both in 1 spec and gear so you had to drop combat to change.

In WotLK they expanded the talent trees to the extent it was impossible to do both in the same spec and took dual spec to do both rolls. Had to drop combat and change specs and gear to do both to top end potential.

In Cata, I never actually played this one much but the little I did, it was the same as WotLK where it took 2 specs to pull it off.


Now with Gladiator Stance, most feral druids don't have an issue of them giving warriors a sword and board viable DPS spec, but it should be a 4th spec, this talent they are implementing it in is a giant FU to the feral community as they are effectively giving you what they took from feral spec calling it OP and the PvP implications of this stance is obscene, even with the combat restriction. They would have to give it like a 6 second cast time to attempt to fix that.

Can imagine a Prot Warrior in Defensive stance guarding a flag in a base and eating whatever a DPS can throw at him on the intro and after eating the burst, figures a way to drop combat for a split second which isn't hard for most to change to Gladiator Stance and come at him as 100% DPS. Or have him see another he can get the drop on and changes stance just before he attacks. Gives him too much control of the terms of engagement having access to 100% tank and 100% DPS in the same spec and gear.

I hope they give warriors as Gladiator SPEC but not the current 2-specs in one they have mentioned. And if they go this route, they need to give Guardian Druids a talent point to give them a Gladiator Bear form so they have a 100% viable DPS Bear form as well as giving Prot Paladins the same ability with an Aura change.

But if they give them the 4th spec, I vote for this wholeheartedly and would love watching people complain on the forums how they cant tell what the warrior is by looking at him anymore.

[Archimtiros]

Actually this isn't the same.

They are actually attempting to make it equal to Arms and Fury DPS in the same gear and spec.

I am an old school feral druid. But never played MoP, quit before then.

During TBC it took a complete change of gear between cat and gear and couldn't be 100% of either in the same spec due to the power shifting requirement for top end DPS and to do top DPS you lost about 30% of your armor. But you could do a hybrid spec where you were like 95% of tank and 85% of DPS. But couldn't be both in 1 spec and gear so you had to drop combat to change.

In WotLK they expanded the talent trees to the extent it was impossible to do both in the same spec and took dual spec to do both rolls. Had to drop combat and change specs and gear to do both to top end potential.

In Cata, I never actually played this one much but the little I did, it was the same as WotLK where it took 2 specs to pull it off.


Now with Gladiator Stance, most feral druids don't have an issue of them giving warriors a sword and board viable DPS spec, but it should be a 4th spec, this talent they are implementing it in is a giant FU to the feral community as they are effectively giving you what they took from feral spec calling it OP and the PvP implications of this stance is obscene, even with the combat restriction. They would have to give it like a 6 second cast time to attempt to fix that.

Can imagine a Prot Warrior in Defensive stance guarding a flag in a base and eating whatever a DPS can throw at him on the intro and after eating the burst, figures a way to drop combat for a split second which isn't hard for most to change to Gladiator Stance and come at him as 100% DPS. Or have him see another he can get the drop on and changes stance just before he attacks. Gives him too much control of the terms of engagement having access to 100% tank and 100% DPS in the same spec and gear.

I hope they give warriors as Gladiator SPEC but not the current 2-specs in one they have mentioned. And if they go this route, they need to give Guardian Druids a talent point to give them a Gladiator Bear form so they have a 100% viable DPS Bear form as well as giving Prot Paladins the same ability with an Aura change.

But if they give them the 4th spec, I vote for this wholeheartedly and would love watching people complain on the forums how they cant tell what the warrior is by looking at him anymore.

You are looking at this in completely the wrong light.

To be fair, it is very similar to old Feral Druids. The specs were balanced (in their own way, for their time), Feral was both an effective tank and dps, with the added bonus of being able to swap dynamically during combat.
Yes they needed different gear to do both effectively, but it gave them something to do during downtime while tanking, or during oh shit moments as a DPS.

With Gladiators, you will not be able to dynamically change during combat. Likewise you will not use the exact same gearing. It is lessened somewhat from the early days of Feral, but you will still need different trinkets, rings, neck, cloak; not to mention to be truly optimal you will want to gear/gem/enchant differently for each spec.

As for the PvP implications, you are right, and there is no way around that, but I think it is a good concept, and both stances have their drawbacks. It will encourage making smart decisions based on the situation during PvP and it will really only matter during BG's which not many people take too seriously in PvP to begin with. The likelyhood of dropping combat in Arenas as a Melee is very slim.

I really think if people give Glad a chance and it proves not only viable but fun it could become a true fourth spec some day, or atleast be expanded on past a simple talent. However the groundwork was already there for Feral/Guardian druids and it really isn't for Warriors, which is why so much extra work needs to go in.

Lastly, not all classes are equal. Giving them all the same tools at the same time homogenizes them and takes away the flavor. Keep in mind also that using Gladiator Stance means Warriors do not get another lvl 100 talent.

TLDR: Nothing is ever completely "fair" especially in class design. Understand that this is an exciting concept that is nowhere near completely fleshed out, which is the prime reason only one class has it. You can't simultaneously bash it for being incomplete and then complain that more classes should have it.

Edit: Had to add in, "complaining about not being able to tell a spec visually?" Seriously, in todays World (of Warcraft) of transmogging into other class gear, flashy graphics and UI elements I don't think visual clues to a class are any amount of design concern. If that is the biggest complaint people have with a class/spec I think the designers are doing everything right!