What happened to shadow?

[Deleted]

You're actually the one who said shadow was the "worst" multi dotter out of all the viable dps classes. Demo is viable, shadow is a better multi dotter than demo therefor shadow is not the "worst" multi dotter. It doesn't matter than affliction is better, BOTH specs are viable therefor they both count.

Again, anyone who uses their brain would discount Demonology when Affliction is better. There is nothing to argue here except to disagree. On progress, I am right and your raid leader if he has a few brain cells would tell your Warlock if he keeps insisting on Demonology while Affliction is better to switch to Affliction. If he wouldn't comply -> replace/kick. If you are talking about farm: I don't care about farm. Farm is irrelevant.

Destruction IS a multi dotting spec and I honestly do not see how you could say otherwise. Immolate = a dot. Destruction warlocks cast immolate on multiple targets. By definition, that is called multi dotting.

Dot class or not isn't a binary 1 or 0. You cannot say this class is a dot spec, and this class is not a dot spec. If a class has a dot it is technically a dot class but relative to the dot spec pur sang (which is Affliction IMO) a spec like Destruction isn't a dot spec. Immolate is a dot, yes, but Immolate dot little damage compared to all the dots from Affliction. Just because a spec has "a" dot doesn't make it a dot spec. If you compare the damage Arcane Mage does on Protectors their primary damage is coming from Nether Tempest. A Warlock going Destruction on Protectors however would find very little dot damage.

Lets see on our last Fallen Protectors kill. Our Arcane Mage had a Nether Tempest uptime of 98% and 35% of all her damage was from Nether Tempest. My primary damage was Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, and third Mind Spike (a proc from Vampiric Touch). Compared to one of our Warlocks who was Destruction who's top damage was 25% Chaos Bolt (includes the dot from Sacrifice). Immolate all counted up was 18% roughly equal to Incinerate but this includes the initial damage it does. And you are going to tell me with a straight face Destruction is a dot spec? You would mention dot specs Destruction and Affliction in the same sentence? Go wash your mouth kid. On a pure multidot fight you wouldn't run Destruction. You would run Affliction. End of story.

That's okay if you "only care" about the last 3 bosses because whether you care or not there are 11 other bosses this tier..... Proven wrong yet again and you counter argument was "well idc about the other 75% of the instance". Again extremely childish and not really helping your side of the argument out. And TBH the hardest part of H galakaras is phase 1 imo which consist of pure cleaving and AoE .... which arms is good at.

Not about AoE cleave. AoE cleave is just c00l on the meters which the level you are at. Instead the fight is about utility and focus target damage on high priority targets and target switching to banners and totems which get 1shot (Nazgrim's don't get one shot which is one step up) and also some AoE cleave indeed. I do not know if Warriors in top guilds went Arms for this fight. They might have, but Warrior also saw changes after a few weeks of SoO.

Again, out of all the viable ranged dps specs which multi dotting is quite powerful, shadow is a better multi dotter than demo, destruction and survival so clearly not the worst and indeed mid pack. Might as well throw frost mages in there too.

A Warlock who is not going Affliction when multidot is plain better than the other 2 Warlock specs is either lazy (farm) or a retard (progression). You are right about Survival being a less good multidotter than Shadow and that is the only dot spec Hunter has. However Hunter has another viable spec called Beast Mastery which pulls ahead single target. Both specs are far ahead of Shadow single target. A Hunter hands down more valuable than a Shadow Priest on the last 3 fights.

That's okay if you "only care" about the last 3 bosses because whether you care or not there are 11 other bosses this tier.....

Which are all rather trivial. The first real check was Siegecrafter as far as I'm concerned. That is the first fight we wiped a lot on.

Proven wrong yet again and you counter argument was "well idc about the other 75% of the instance". Again extremely childish and not really helping your side of the argument out. And TBH the hardest part of H galakaras is phase 1 imo which consist of pure cleaving and AoE .... which arms is good at.

Whatever spec is best on the last 3 bosses is the spec people will remember playing because that is the spec they progressed with on the tough bosses.

Umm.....okay? Padding is how you keep farm content from being boring imo.

I don't care about farm. You can play Demonology on farm and get ranked because 5 other people in the world came up with this great idea. That does not make it optimal.

But just judging from this one post I assume you're one of the guys who say "SHADOW IS DEAD LAST ON EVERYONE OMG" "My spec needs buffs!!!!".

Keep judging on your Paladin instead you will sound less retarded.

[Orcindauh]

Again, anyone who uses their brain would discount Demonology when Affliction is better. There is nothing to argue here except to disagree. On progress, I am right and your raid leader if he has a few brain cells would tell your Warlock if he keeps insisting on Demonology while Affliction is better to switch to Affliction. If he wouldn't comply -> replace/kick. If you are talking about farm: I don't care about farm. Farm is irrelevant.

Are you saying demo is not viable? Tbh I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue here. All 3 warlock specs are viable this tier.

Dot class or not isn't a binary 1 or 0. You cannot say this class is a dot spec, and this class is not a dot spec. If a class has a dot it is technically a dot class but relative to the dot spec pur sang (which is Affliction IMO) a spec like Destruction isn't a dot spec. Immolate is a dot, yes, but Immolate dot little damage compared to all the dots from Affliction. Just because a spec has "a" dot doesn't make it a dot spec. If you compare the damage Arcane Mage does on Protectors their primary damage is coming from Nether Tempest. A Warlock going Destruction on Protectors however would find very little dot damage.

Okay let's go back to grade school here. Is immolate a dot? Yes. Multi dotting it significantly increases ember generation therefor it does "a lot of damage".
What's ussualy #1 or #2 most damaging spell for a destruction warlock? Chaos bolt right? What do you need to use chaos bolt? Embers right? What's a sufficient way of getting embers? Multi dotting immolate? Yay, I think we learned something here.

A Warlock who is not going Affliction when multidot is plain better than the other 2 Warlock specs is either lazy (farm) or a retard (progression). You are right about Survival being a less good multidotter than Shadow and that is the only dot spec Hunter has. However Hunter has another viable spec called Beast Mastery which pulls ahead single target. Both specs are far ahead of Shadow single target. A Hunter hands down more valuable than a Shadow Priest on the last 3 fights.

You don't know a damn thing about hunters do you? When it comes to which is better at single target between survival and BM it depends purely on what gear you have. With the T16 4p survival actually generally pulls better numbers on single target dps (again depending on what gear you have). Only major exception being in BiS gear where BM generally pulls ahead. Aoe/cleave fights BM nearly always pulls ahead except on H immersues because of pet bug issues. Another reason right here to completely disregard most of the things you're talking about as it seems you have no clue what you're saying. I am actually entertained by you thinking you know a single thing about hunters, please tell me more.

Also there are many locks who stay destruction for literally every fight this tier, even the fights where affliction would be better. Big balls you have to call every single one of them retarded.

Lets see on our last Fallen Protectors kill. Our Arcane Mage had a Nether Tempest uptime of 98% and 35% of all her damage was from Nether Tempest. My primary damage was Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, and third Mind Spike (a proc from Vampiric Touch). Compared to one of our Warlocks who was Destruction who's top damage was 25% Chaos Bolt (includes the dot from Sacrifice). Immolate all counted up was 18% roughly equal to Incinerate but this includes the initial damage it does. And you are going to tell me with a straight face Destruction is a dot spec? You would mention dot specs Destruction and Affliction in the same sentence? Go wash your mouth kid. On a pure multidot fight you wouldn't run Destruction. You would run Affliction. End of story.

Immolate was the reason he was able to cast as many chaos bolts. Do you honestly not know how destruction warlocks operate? Immolate contributed A LOT more to his dps than that "18%". Let's go through this again just in case you missed what I said before. Immolate critical ticks = embers. Embers = chaos bolt and shadowburn.
To get a fair comparison on how much damage immolate did, count the number of critical ticks immolate had over the course of the fight and use that to determine how many chaos bolts and shadowburns were able to be casted because of immolate and add that to the "18%".
>Also might be wrong here but 18% seems a tad low, is he trying to keep immolate up on every boss? If not then you sir have a bad lock.

Not about AoE cleave. AoE cleave is just c00l on the meters which the level you are at. Instead the fight is about utility and focus target damage on high priority targets and target switching to banners and totems which get 1shot (Nazgrim's don't get one shot which is one step up) and also some AoE cleave indeed. I do not know if Warriors in top guilds went Arms for this fight. They might have, but Warrior also saw changes after a few weeks of SoO.

Wat. Again... not even sure what you're trying to say here. You realize like over half the fight this tier involve aoe or cleaving? Not sure what you mean by "AOE IS KOOL ON THE METERS". AoE and Cleave is needed in like half the bosses this tier.

Whatever spec is best on the last 3 bosses is the spec people will remember playing because that is the spec they progressed with on the tough bosses.

Huh? You speak for everyone? anecdotal.

Which are all rather trivial. The first real check was Siegecrafter as far as I'm concerned. That is the first fight we wiped a lot on.

To you? sure? Just more anecdotal data in my ears though. You kind of seem to think anything that isn't optimal on the last 3 bosses isn't optimal at all this tier. Really stupid logic though imo. Tbh with that logic, affliction isn't viable at all this tier as destruction is by far the best spec for the last 3 bosses.

Keep judging on your Paladin instead you will sound less retarded.

Jokes on you, I don't even play a paladin. BTW was that an insult?

Whoa whoa whoa wait a minute. You're running FLCD or w/e it's called on protectors as a shadow priest? And you had the nerve to call destruction locks who don't switch affliction for protectors retarded? hmmm.


-Hmm the fact that you clearly know nothing of hunters or destruction warlocks kind of dulls your argument down here.
>Clearly didn't understand that immolate critical ticks contribute to chaos bolt / shadowburn usage.
>(from the looks of it) Claimed BM was superior in single target dps to survival when that all depends on your current gear.
>I barely even touch my shadow priest and I know FDCL is inferior to insanity on protectors as there is hardly any movement.

This is kind of entertaining though, I'm kind of interested in seeing any counter argument you can come up with. All because what? You refuse to accept the fact that shadow priest are "mid pack". Sorry but shadow priest are not dead last.

[Volitar]

I loved Shadow on the use DS on cd for healing fights :P, made me feel cool like was 1/4 of a healer.

[Nurasu]

You're actually the one who said shadow was the "worst" multi dotter out of all the viable dps classes. Demo is viable, shadow is a better multi dotter than demo therefor shadow is not the "worst" multi dotter. It doesn't matter than affliction is better, BOTH specs are viable therefor they both count. I basically proven you wrong and you saying "NO THAT DOESNT COUNT BECAUSE IM RIGHT" it extremely childish. Destruction IS a multi dotting spec and I honestly do not see how you could say otherwise. Immolate = a dot. Destruction warlocks cast immolate on multiple targets. By definition, that is called multi dotting.

I feel like you're being dense here for the sake of being dense and calling it an argument. The traditional DoT classes are shadow priests, affy locks, boomkins and by most standards now includes arcane mages on multi-DoT fights. There is absolutely no reason to lump in demo, and it seems completely silly to use it to say shadow isn't the worst multi-DoTer. A full dps disc priest uses shadow word: pain, do they also count for this analogy?

[Deleted]

Are you saying demo is not viable?

I'm saying you should play the best spec. Demonology is not the best spec for any fight in SoO. End of the fucking story.

Also there are many locks who stay destruction for literally every fight this tier, even the fights where affliction would be better. Big balls you have to call every single one of them retarded.

I do not care what "many locks" do. I care for two things: Killing bosses on progression and killing stuff as easy/quick as possible on farm. My fellow raiders care about ranks and all that crap though. Looking at Warlock, Warlocks stick to Destruction [EDIT]I wrote Affliction here originally; my bad[/EDIT] because it is a better spec on the fights which matter (the last ones), and after Demonology (UVLS) got nerfed Destruction was best on almost every fight. Affliction will pull ahead on certain fights when your raid has top notch gear and nobody dies but that is farm.

Immolate was the reason he was able to cast as many chaos bolts. Do you honestly not know how destruction warlocks operate? Immolate contributed A LOT more to his dps than that "18%". Let's go through this again just in case you missed what I said before. Immolate critical ticks = embers. Embers = chaos bolt and shadowburn.
To get a fair comparison on how much damage immolate did, count the number of critical ticks immolate had over the course of the fight and use that to determine how many chaos bolts and shadowburns were able to be casted because of immolate and add that to the "18%".
>Also might be wrong here but 18% seems a tad low, is he trying to keep immolate up on every boss? If not then you sir have a bad lock.

Except for pull, a Destruction Warlock has far more burst and AoE cleave than Affliction which makes it less of a dot class. Go back to the cave where you belong.

Wat. Again... not even sure what you're trying to say here. You realize like over half the fight this tier involve aoe or cleaving? Not sure what you mean by "AOE IS KOOL ON THE METERS". AoE and Cleave is needed in like half the bosses this tier.

Yeah that + the nerf on Demonology is why Destruction is amazing Sherlock fucking Holmes.

Huh? You speak for everyone? anecdotal.

I have to make sure I speak for people like you because if people like you were having a say then we'd still be on the level of balancing Shadow around the worst Warlock specs. Go back to your cave already.

To you? sure? Just more anecdotal data in my ears though. You kind of seem to think anything that isn't optimal on the last 3 bosses isn't optimal at all this tier. Really stupid logic though imo. Tbh with that logic, affliction isn't viable at all this tier as destruction is by far the best spec for the last 3 bosses.

Affliction is sub optimal on every boss except Protectors and Thok. On Thok, top guilds used Demonology. Protectors it doesn't really matter much since it never was much of a DPS check. Which brings me to the point Destruction is the Warlock spec of this tier.

Jokes on you, I don't even play a paladin. BTW was that an insult?

You should try one, it would suit you.

Whoa whoa whoa wait a minute. You're running FLCD or w/e it's called on protectors as a shadow priest? And you had the nerve to call destruction locks who don't switch affliction for protectors retarded? hmmm.

FDCL is the best spec for Protectors if you run high crit because you have 3+ dots up you clueless nugget. And that concludes our business. On ignore you go.

[Orcindauh]

I do not care what "many locks" do. I care for two things: Killing bosses on progression and killing stuff as easy/quick as possible on farm. My fellow raiders care about ranks and all that crap though. Looking at Warlock, Warlocks stick to Affliction because it is a better spec on the fights which matter (the last ones), and after Demonology (UVLS) got nerfed Destruction was best on almost every fight. Affliction will pull ahead on certain fights when your raid has top notch gear and nobody dies but that is farm.

Affliction is not better than destruction for any of the last 3 bosses..... Not sure where you got that from. All 3 of the last bosses favor destruction. You don't have to "care" what many locks do, you just have to know.

You should try one, it would suit you.

Misunderstanding what exactly you're trying to say. Maybe you should clarify?

I'm saying you should play the best spec. Demonology is not the best spec for any fight in SoO. End of the fucking story.

I think you're kind of missing the point. Demonology is a viable spec. That's the point. I have no clue what you're trying to accomplish here but you've basically repeated the same thing for like 4 whole post. Demonology is a viable multi dotting spec and shadow is better at multi dotting than it is. End of fucking story.

Affliction is sub optimal on every boss except Protectors and Thok. On Thok, top guilds used Demonology. Protectors it doesn't really matter much since it never was much of a DPS check. Which brings me to the point Destruction is the Warlock spec of this tier.

This is the part where your post just goes full retard. You YOURSELF basically said he first 11 bosses do not matter and any spec that is not optimal on the last 3 bosses is not optimal at all then you go back and mention the first 11.

Yeah that + the nerf on Demonology is why Destruction is amazing Sherlock fucking Holmes.

Huh? I thought we were talking about how viable arms warriors were here? Sorry but do you even read the stuff you post?

Except for pull, a Destruction Warlock has far more burst and AoE cleave than Affliction which makes it less of a dot class. Go back to the cave where you belong.

Uhh....What exactly does this have to do with anything I just said? DoT = damage over time. Immolate is a dot. Multi dotting immolate significantly boost your dps. Not quite sure what is so hard to comprehend. You saying "well despite the dot, it's not a dot class even with the dot" kind of makes no sense.

FDCL is the best spec for Protectors if you run high crit because you have 3+ dots up you clueless nugget.

Why exactly are you running high crit and no, insanity is by far better for protectors. A shadow priest who has a clue would be 1:1 crit:mastery after hitting haste cap/

And that concludes our business. On ignore you go.

Way to go. I guess that's another way of saying "I have nothing left to back up my argument so I'm going to do the childish thing and just ignore your facts so I can live in my little fantasy world where shadow priest are the worst dps spec in the game."

Way to go bro. 10/10 I enjoyed every second of it.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like you're being dense here for the sake of being dense and calling it an argument. The traditional DoT classes are shadow priests, affy locks, boomkins and by most standards now includes arcane mages on multi-DoT fights. There is absolutely no reason to lump in demo, and it seems completely silly to use it to say shadow isn't the worst multi-DoTer. A full dps disc priest uses shadow word: pain, do they also count for this analogy?

>Demo is a multi dotting class... If you aren't multi dotting as demo you're playing it wrong.
>I'd like to see an official document that states what "traditional" dot classes are. Because if multi dotting significantly increases your dps then by definition you are a multi dotting spec. Arcane didn't even have a dot until MoP, how are they a "traditional" multi dotting spec?
>Stop trying to say shadow is the "worst" because it isn't. I'm getting awfully sick of shadow priest whinging saying they are the "worst". You're not the worst you're mid pack for Christs sake.

[Yvaelle]

Shadow, single target, is the worst - and not by a little bit:




That's about 25% below the top-end - which is the biggest spread since TBC (when we were a support spec, not a DPS spec). Or if you are more into real numbers, you can look here (hint: same result).

It's ok to not be good at everything, it's even ok to be straight up bad at something - but that trade-off should mean that we are great at something else. We're largely ok with being bad at single target, what inspires ire though is that on fights where we should be on the leading edge - we're in the middle of the pack. Like Dark Shaman, Spoils of Pandaria, Fallen Protectors, or Klaxxi (no data because it's still too rare, but my anecdotal evidence says we're mediocre).

Either we should have middle of the pack single target damage, or we should be awesome at multi-dot - but being "the worst" at single target and being average at multi-dot isn't fair. That's a legitimate reason to bitch - if you are tired of hearing it all expansion - imagine how tired we are of having to bitch all expansion in vain.

[Orcindauh]

Okay Yvaelee, not to be rude but linking simcraft is hardly a source of accurate information.
>Frost mage better than all 3 lock specs and fire and arcane pretty much gives it away.

And Heroic malk is literally the worst fight for a shadow priest this tier. That's mainly a problem with shadow's terrible mobility, not mainly their damage.

Take a look at jug, Shadow is beating frost mages, which according to your simcraft link, frost mages should be near the top of the meters that fight.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...all/14/60/p90/

Bottom line is you're not the "worst". You may not be that good but you aren't the worst.

[Dierdre]

Take a look at jug, Shadow is beating frost mages, which according to your simcraft link, frost mages should be near the top of the meters that fight.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...all/14/60/p90/

You should have an understanding of what happens with mages behind those numbers tho. Fire and arcane are significantly stronger than frost once you get t16+ gear, so many mages make the switch after acquiring H pieces. Which results in H frost logs being populated with more mages with less gear, and fire logs with more mages with better gear.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I don't understand why you're bothering arguing with this guy. He's trying to defend the indefensible, which suggests that at best he's arguing for the sake of it or at worst he's trolling.

On the up side: pretty much of all of the changes Blizzard are suggesting for Shadow in WoD point to the fact they recognise and accept that Shadow's damage in MoP was kept deliberately pegged back in order to compensate for our high utility - in particular our very strong off-healing in a raid environment. Not much use in PvP though, was it?

Although I'm not keen on many of the simplifications they're making to the game, it'll probably be enough get me to re-sub in the autumn.

What I'm pissed off with is the way Blizzard have dealt with SP dps concerns this ex-pac; a constant barrage of denial. This and the fact that hybrid tax (as we knew it in TBC) was supposed to have died a long time ago.

Bottom line is: 20-25% difference between top and bottom spec on single target for an entire ex-pac is not acceptable and has fucked a lot of people off. And you come to the priest forum to argue about this? You're either trolling or you're a masochist.

[Orcindauh]

You should have an understanding of what happens with mages behind those numbers tho. Fire and arcane are significantly stronger than frost once you get t16+ gear, so many mages make the switch after acquiring H pieces. Which results in H frost logs being populated with more mages with less gear, and fire logs with more mages with better gear.

The point I was making is that shadow is not "dead last" for single target dps. Jugg is probably the best fight to judge this by as it's not really a fight you can cheese much (compared to the other 13 bosses) and it is a single target fight that has the least movement required (compared to malk). Juggernaut is basically the "pathwerk" fight this tier.

Shadow :
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...st&spec=Shadow

Ret :
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...ec=Retribution

Shadow is also just very shortly behind elemental for this fight. I didn't mention arms, unholy or MM since they have much stronger alternatives but clearly shadow is better than ret for single target dps therefor shadow is not the "worst".


25m H Malk :
Shadow :
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...st&spec=Shadow

Frost :
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...age&spec=Frost

Ret:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...ec=Retribution

Ele :
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...spec=Elemental

Balance :
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...d&spec=Balance

Shadow is capable of beating 4 other specs not including arms, unholy and MM on H malk. Thought this is probably less meaningful than Juggernaut due to cheesing mechanics (twist of fate anyone). But still the potential for shadow to beat other viable specs is there. Defiantly not "Dead last".

As you see shadow isn't really "dead last" on a single fight this tier. Sure they aren't that good but they aren't at the very bottom as some people claim.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't understand why you're bothering arguing with this guy. He's trying to defend the indefensible, which suggests that at best he's arguing for the sake of it or at worst he's trolling.

HOW exactly am I trolling? We have people here crying that shadow is "dead last" and I'm giving PLENTY of evidence to prove they are not "dead last"?

Shadow isn't that good but they ARE NOT "DEAD LAST DPS".

[Deleted]

You should have an understanding of what happens with mages behind those numbers tho. Fire and arcane are significantly stronger than frost once you get t16+ gear, so many mages make the switch after acquiring H pieces. Which results in H frost logs being populated with more mages with less gear, and fire logs with more mages with better gear.

Frost is simply not a good spec single target. Arcane pulls ahead single target, especially when they can turret. Arcane is a rather selfish spec whereas Frost is a utility spec. Take Siegecrafter for example. All Mage specs bring Ring of Frost. Frost brings good cleave and AoE. Arcane as well, but their AoE requires melee. I don't bring a ranged to the fight to get into melee range to AoE so I rather see our Mages go Frost there since we do not need the single target DPS. Iron Juggernaut on the other hand you don't need any utility from Frost and apart from stat priority (which isn't huge) why would the Mage not be Arcane on Iron Juggernaut? Comparing Shadow to the worst Mage spec which is a spec the Mage uses by choice is ludicrous. That is like comparing Frost Mage to a Shadow Priest who specs into Power Infusion and Mindbender because "Hey, that is one of the talent the player can pick"

I don't know what else he wrote and neither do I care. Communities like H2P get less aliens like this because there is no x-communnity with non-Priests.

[Orcindauh]

Frost is simply not a good spec single target. Arcane pulls ahead single target, especially when they can turret. Arcane is a rather selfish spec whereas Frost is a utility spec. Take Siegecrafter for example. All Mage specs bring Ring of Frost. Frost brings good cleave and AoE. Arcane as well, but their AoE requires melee. I don't bring a ranged to the fight to get into melee range to AoE so I rather see our Mages go Frost there since we do not need the single target DPS. Iron Juggernaut on the other hand you don't need any utility from Frost and apart from stat priority (which isn't huge) why would the Mage not be Arcane on Iron Juggernaut? Comparing Shadow to the worst Mage spec which is a spec the Mage uses by choice is ludicrous. That is like comparing Frost Mage to a Shadow Priest who specs into Power Infusion and Mindbender because "Hey, that is one of the talent the player can pick"

I don't know what else he wrote and neither do I care. Communities like H2P get less aliens like this because there is no x-communnity with non-Priests.

Tbh judging by what you wrote about hunters and locks earlier. You clearly have no clue about any class other than the ones you main.

I'm comparing viable specs to other viable specs. I thought you left this thread alone too? Was only a matter of time before you cam back I guess.

Why would a frost mage not switch to arcane for jugg? Maybe he doesn't want to re reforge or maybe he only had frost/fire spec. TBH juggernaunt is an easy enough fight to where you don't have to spend tons of gold re geming and reforging. And Frost is a perfectly viable spec for jugg, anyone who disagrees clearly needs to sit down and rethink it.

But judging by your "all locks who don't go affliction for protectors are retarded" post I doubt you have any logic left in there.

A Warlock who is not going Affliction when multidot is plain better than the other 2 Warlock specs is a retard

Also let's not lie in front of everyone else here. You and I both know you read every single one of my post despite you "ignoring" me.

[xenogear3]

Shadow priest dps is always low, but lots of people deny it.

[Blur4stuff]

i fill the dps role once in awhile. usually if someone is out or if we short ourselves on healing. my monk does okay given that i'm mainly a healer.

i was gearing up my spriest alt to help out. i kept practicing on the raid dummy to bring my numbers up. i eventually got my spriest's ilvl to match my monk's dps set. i read all of the guides. i watched videos. i made sure to do everything exactly right. but, somehow my monk was 80-100k dps ahead of my spriest. i tried over and over and over. always similar results.

i decided to use a dps sim to make sure it wasn't just me being a noob. sure enough, even the sim put my monk 100k dps ahead of my spriest on single target. how did blizzard even let this happen? and why wasn't it fixed months ago?

at any rate, i hope that gets fixed for WoD.

[Deleted]

Shadow, single target, is the worst - and not by a little bit:




That's about 25% below the top-end - which is the biggest spread since TBC (when we were a support spec, not a DPS spec). Or if you are more into real numbers, you can look here (hint: same result).

It's ok to not be good at everything, it's even ok to be straight up bad at something - but that trade-off should mean that we are great at something else. We're largely ok with being bad at single target, what inspires ire though is that on fights where we should be on the leading edge - we're in the middle of the pack. Like Dark Shaman, Spoils of Pandaria, Fallen Protectors, or Klaxxi (no data because it's still too rare, but my anecdotal evidence says we're mediocre).

Either we should have middle of the pack single target damage, or we should be awesome at multi-dot - but being "the worst" at single target and being average at multi-dot isn't fair. That's a legitimate reason to bitch - if you are tired of hearing it all expansion - imagine how tired we are of having to bitch all expansion in vain.

Shadow Priests were benched on Klaxxi progress in top guilds (on 25, I don't really care about 10, the fight is a joke on 10 anyway from what I heard). It is generally a single target fight most of the time, with a couple of twists (there is even some multidotting going on when baiting the amber). Klaxxi is not a multidot fight though. Sure, you can spec into DI. You will find this padding increases the amount of damage Shadow Word: Pain does but if you remove that in comparison, ToF comes close. It just will not make the Priest look as good on the meters. Classes like Arcane and Moonkin are multidotting all the time on this fight though. Death Knights? Cleaving with Howling Blast. Either way, it is a though fight to compare people on. You cannot simply look at Total Damage Done parses. There is a lot of padding going on both deliberate as well as part of default rotation (such as Howling Blast). The deliberate allows for options to get ranked, at the expense of going for the kill. I read somewhere WarcraftLogs was trying to make it easier to look at the effective DPS on this fight. If they can do that on more fights next expansion I'm hooked on them for sure.

This entire patch isn't very multidot-friendly. You can recognize that from the amount of fights where Affliction pulls ahead (while ignoring the fights Warlocks are Affliction because its farm + they quickly kill the boss ie. their burst). Warlocks go Affliction on two fights: Protectors because of multidot, and Thok because of the interrupt mechanic. Spoils? Cleave & burst. Right now, stuff dies too quickly to warrant the name multidot fight but it allows opportunities if you play more selfish or think outside of the box (dotting low priority targets for example). These adds fights change as you start overgearing them. Compare this for example to BoT. These fights remained multidot fight even during farm because the bosses stayed up. It isn't like a fight as V&T suddenly 1 boss dies within 8 seconds instead of 14 and then it becomes a single target fight. Apart from the fact our single target was much higher there, and we could target switch easier. Cleaving the adds in the back of the room of Cho'gal still allowed us to keep our dots up on the boss which alone already did amazing damage. Blizzard decided to nerf multidot for MoP tho. Its a niche now, certainly not the default like it was in BoT.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like you're being dense here for the sake of being dense and calling it an argument. The traditional DoT classes are shadow priests, affy locks, boomkins and by most standards now includes arcane mages on multi-DoT fights. There is absolutely no reason to lump in demo, and it seems completely silly to use it to say shadow isn't the worst multi-DoTer. A full dps disc priest uses shadow word: pain, do they also count for this analogy?

Holy Fire is a dot. That makes Discipline a dot healer! On the tune of Transformers: "Dot Healers. *Tududu..duuuh..*"

[Deleted]

I could link you raidbots, all parses and the same fight, the data would be different, putting rets ahead of SP... Which would mean SP is weaker than rets? BTW, I love how you use one of the only 2 percentiles where SP are ahead of Rets... great job.
Can you please go back to your forum? You are being a dense, very dense, person...

[Orcindauh]

Shadow Priests were benched on Klaxxi progress in top guilds

Didn't US first 25m Heroic Klaxxi kill have like 2 or 3 shadow priest?

[Nivrax]

This and the fact that hybrid tax (as we knew it in TBC) was supposed to have died a long time ago.

Hybrid Tax never went away. They specifically didn't comment on it (until now) because they knew how it would upset casual Johnnys that they don't do damage of this op lock/mage/rogue they saw in lfr and it's totally this stinky tax thingy, not that Johny can't keep up 50% dot uptime on targets. Anyone that thinks they can bring pure dps numbers AND have great raid utility AND have a perk of being able to spec healer/tank was delusional, guilds would just bench all pures, fill it with hybrids and with amount of offhealing they do, drop more healers for even more hybrids.

That's why they remove your (and hopefully all other too) hybrids utility, rebalance other class raid utility, even add raid cd to mages, so that they can really tune you all with same dps AND same group utility. If all you wanted in your limited-spec lifetime was just to dps and not help others, WoD will be your time to shine, for others who strived for being able to help with more than pure recount numbers it sucks though.

[Frmercury]

Didn't US first 25m Heroic Klaxxi kill have like 2 or 3 shadow priest?

Val and Viklund for Method
Bnd and Iapeto for Blood Legion