Why is exclusivity now such a bad thing in MMO's.

[Pandapuncher]

The churn in the game has been phenomenal. Ponzi schemes can last a while, if they keep getting new suckers in to support the pyramid. Eventually that collapses though.

I feel like you learned a new word and are trying to use it wherever possible.

gonna make it simple. there's a reason back in the day games didn't come out every year. Because they had lasting power.

Today, they need to release games every year because they are casual as shit and people get bored.

There is a reason you spent all your quarters in the arcade just trying to beat the next level. The pyramid never collapsed, the pyramid is both on a world scale, and on a server scale. There was always the ability to be the top of something.

[Osmeric]

I feel like you learned a new word and are trying to use it wherever possible

I feel like you searched for an intelligent rebuttal and couldn't find one.

[Pandapuncher]

I feel like you searched for an intelligent rebuttal and couldn't find one.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme.

In case you wanted the definition for the word you heard on the daily show


what Warcraft is, is simply classic Capitalism. and gear is the trickle down

[Osmeric]

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme.

In case you wanted the definition for the word you heard on the daily show

Oh very good, you can look up definitions.

Exclusivity as a reward is a ponzi scheme of the ego, not of money. The designer of exclusive content lures in players with the mirage of ego gratification, knowing full well that the reward can (by mathematical definition) only flow to a small fraction of the players.

A game like WoW can only work if most players are getting some reward other than exclusive ones. Exclusivity cannot be the value proposition the game is based on. It can, at best, be a minor part of the game, for a minor part of the player population. And since most of the players are being rewarded without exclusivity, the game could be designed without any exclusive rewards at all, and it would retain most of its players.

[Azaael]

Thinking back to my gaming over the years-funny thing how back in the old Nintendo days, the NES was an incredibly accessible system...that still had a lot of those old-school design philosophies(read: Be cheesy and try to milk you for quarters like arcade games.) We didn't really care, though. Oh, sure, we game-raged over Turbo Tunnel and Clinger Winger in Battletoads, but at the end of the day, we just had fun with the games, as did many.

Arcades were pretty accessible as well. Home systems? I knew grandparents who played Duck Hunt. They got a bit less accessible over the 16 bit days, IMO-Playstation was back and forth. Final Fantasy 7, for example, blew open RPGs to people(and yeah, at that point...people who had played RPGs on the older systems could be like 'what's this easy shit.') PC gaming in those days seemed quite a bit more exclusive than consoles.

Old arcade multiplayer beat em ups were pretty accessible(in the sense that you could just be a casual gamer if you had a lot of quarters on hand. More challenge oriented ones tried to beat them on as few as possible, IME.)

MMOs, though-they definitely changed something. I mean the MUDs that they were influenced by were played by mostly your classic 'nerd types' back in those days, but in a twist, they were the people who were more 'ostracized' from the 'cool crowd'. Then the MMOs started attracting the people who started to act more exclusive toward the other gamers in a weird twist. Nowadays MMOs are, for the most part, vastly more casual playerbases(save maybe EVE), but it doesn't stop people from still wanting exclusive content.

In the recent years, gaming is widely mainstream...but then people have to somehow start forming cliques in that and pushing out others who aren't 'hardcore' enough or whatnot. Where gamers themselves, after the NES boom, were more considered a 'clique'...as the group got big, they started to form groups within groups, etc. MMOs? I guess after they got really popular people started to once again form the groups, and the smaller percentage of hardcores(who used to make up more of the MMO populations pre-WoW) started to want exclusive stuff again(even though they still get all the good stuff first and essentially 'beat the casuals' if that's what they really want to do. I dunno-I went through a stint as a semi-hardcore and I didn't give a shit that the casuals could get stuff I did later on. Didn't bother me-nor affect me-in the least.)

[Deleted]

Just a question I think should be answered, why do people think expansions like tbc were exclusive when there was engaging content that lasted and had progression for everyone as oppose to modern era wow in which there is one raid for everyone (current tier) and you ignore the back log of raids because they arent relevant or grind 2 weeks in lfr to get enough for soo lfr? Essentially if you came back with a level 90 right now from pre-order you'd spend a week farming ToT and Timeless isle and then join a SoO lfr and have seen end game content within 2 weeks of having come back.

[Pandapuncher]

Oh very good, you can look up definitions.

Exclusivity as a reward is a ponzi scheme of the ego, not of money. The designer of exclusive content lures in players with the mirage of ego gratification, knowing full well that the reward can (by mathematical definition) only flow to a small fraction of the players.

A game like WoW can only work if most players are getting some reward other than exclusive ones. Exclusivity cannot be the value proposition the game is based on. It can, at best, be a minor part of the game, for a minor part of the player population. And since most of the players are being rewarded without exclusivity, the game could be designed without any exclusive rewards at all, and it would retain most of its players.

You're still using the word incorrectly, perhaps you should also look up definitions. Also I majored in business in a top 20 school. I think I know what a ponzi scheme is.

Wow is capitalism. I mean pure capitalism.

Effort = gains.

the game isn't hard, it's not hard at all. and here is now it works


You use high end content to get players to try for it.

You then make the content obtainable post patch but at a smaller percent so they are still obtainable.

Examples. Invincible. Mimiron's head.

I'm guessing you didn't play in TBC, but in fact the game is worse than it has ever been.

In TBC you could to BT in Kara epics. all gear was viable.

[Barnabas]

Oh very good, you can look up definitions.

Exclusivity as a reward is a ponzi scheme of the ego, not of money. The designer of exclusive content lures in players with the mirage of ego gratification, knowing full well that the reward can (by mathematical definition) only flow to a small fraction of the players.

A game like WoW can only work if most players are getting some reward other than exclusive ones. Exclusivity cannot be the value proposition the game is based on. It can, at best, be a minor part of the game, for a minor part of the player population. And since most of the players are being rewarded without exclusivity, the game could be designed without any exclusive rewards at all, and it would retain most of its players.

The rewards in WoW are both exclusive and inclusive at the same time. If you want raid gear then you participate in a raid (exclusive.) Now that you've subscribed to raiding you just choose a difficulty (inclusive.) You won't get the same type of trinkets, set bonuses from pvp.

[Warlord Booty]

No, it's recognition, at least for me.

Part of the problem is this:

You are server second in downing Heroic 25 Arthas, to you that's godlike. To me, I don't care. Not even a little.
I get Kingslayer and Light of Dawn, 5 man Heroic 25 Arthas with the AiLVL of my group at 565. To me, it's the same. To you, you think it is worthless (maybe not you specifically, but you catch the meaning).

That's just an example of things, some want their "special snowflake" and others don't care that they have it, while others marvel and want that snowflake and don't want to work for it.

I like exclusivity. I guess that's why those political polls always say I lean Republican.

[Kryos]

But why, has it always been this way and people generally kept it to themselves, was their some big revolution I missed, I don't understand, or maybe I'm just noticing it more.

The games market is expanding for three decades now. The players they get now are people with no understanding that it's not long term fun to play god mode all the time. It's those people that only watched TV and movies before they started playing games. They expect to get and see everything without any efford on their side. This is bad for the whole gaming industry. If games want to become movies they stop beeing games. They tell a nice story, but it's now about watching a movie where you a press some buttons to make it continue (example: Heavy Rain on Playstation) and not about playing a game, learning about the game mechanics and overcome difficulties and face challenges (classic example: Super Mario).

It's not that I did not enjoy an experience like Heavy Rain, but it's not what I would call a game and it's not something I want all games to become. I actually miss the times where story was really irrelevant for good games because it was all about the game mechanics and the fun to overcome difficulties. Some Indy games take it to the other extreme and give you 8bit graphics and extreme challenges without a real reward. I think we need to find the middle ground.

[Heladys]

But why, has it always been this way and people generally kept it to themselves, was their some big revolution I missed, I don't understand, or maybe I'm just noticing it more.

Because the benefit of keeping more feet going thru the old content and paying for the privilege outweighs any neediness your ego may be expressing.

You should be given exclusive titles and achieves, but as far as loot goes - those art assets and the containing instances were expensive to produce and they need to wring what they can out of them no matter how much it might make someone cry.

[-Skye]

Exclusivity was toned down so everyone gets a chance at being "a hero." No one is taking away your hard content, you can still flash your e-peen all you want with your heroic kills and titles, does it actually matter if a lot of people have done the same content as you but on an easier difficulty? It doesn't affect anyone except the guy who gets to see the content he wants, and that should only be a good thing.

Some things should be exclusive to the people who put in a bigger effort of course, but not the content itself imo. The best gear should be reserved to the best players logically (which is also why I find it a bit silly with legendary cloak being handed out to LFR'ers.)

So passive aggresive, I'm not "flashing my e-peen" I was a heroic raider one during Cata, and a glad once, that's it. This isn't about me, I personally feel those who do mythic/heroic content when they're difficult should get exclusive items/mounts/titles that show for that.

[Itisamuh]

The issue isn't about recognition, but in wanting to feel superior to those you deem inferior by some personal and artificial standards.
Rather than simply being happy for progressing in a way that suits yourself.
I don't demand the same rewards from LFR as from normal/flex, but I object to those who want everything removed from LFR simply because they are too damn arrogant to accept that LFR suits an audience that is not them.

Heroic is still exclusive, but it isn't just all raiding being inaccessible to a large portion.

I second this post. And even if you say it is only about recognition, you are just wanting recognized for your supposed superiority. There may be nothing inherently wrong with that, depending on your behavior. But there is also nothing wrong with other people not giving a crap about what you have done, and wanting to have their own fun. Strict exclusivity is bad in a pay to play game.

[Deleted]

I know this may seem like some troll topic on purpose to get people riled up, but I'm genuinely curious.

I've noticed a lot of threads even general comments from people about bringing things back and "oh you can just link the achi anyway". I don't know what's wrong with wanting exclusive items/rewards for hard effort put in at the time of relevant content. Why do so many people feel self entitled just because they pay the monthly sub amount. It's like buying a gym membership, then complaining because you don't have time to use all the equipment and demand they give you some (I know this is apples and oranges, but it's the best example I could think of at the time of writing).

Now don't get me wrong, I was like this once back when I was younger, I wanted everything for nothing and thought it was unfair that the people who were more skilled than me got better stuff than me, but eventually you learn it's just the way life is. If you want it bad enough you try harder, if you don't have the time to in a video game then you're SoL. But times are changing and I don't know why.

I remember back when I was a newb and I wanted everything, but yet when I inspected someone and seen their epic mount/gear, it didn't piss me off, alright I was envious but it gave me drive to try and get to that point of attaining it myself.

So sure, this guy has lets say.. Atiesh *not the best example* you see him and you think holy shit, he was around back then and he put in the effort and he got that legendary (or mount, or whatever). Now lets say theirs 20 people walking around with it, and it's still obtainable, you don't inspect every single one of them until you find the one which had it way back when, you just think "meh".

Now this is where people say "why does it matter what other people think about you?". If I didn't care, I'd go play a singleplayer game, I like achieving things and showing them off, I like getting a CM set, or an epic mount and telling people about it. Why is it a bad thing for wanting recognition for your achievements/things you've done that used to be difficult/challenging/required a lot more effort.

TLDR: Why is it a bad thing for wanting recognition for your achievements/things you've done that used to be difficult/challenging/required a lot more effort.

I think the socialist politics of our time have influenced game design. Everyone gets a legendary, everyone gets to raid, everyone gets to pvp, everyone can now understand the simplified stats and their simplified rotations with their pruned ability bars.

[Pandapuncher]

I second this post. And even if you say it is only about recognition, you are just wanting recognized for your supposed superiority. There may be nothing inherently wrong with that, depending on your behavior. But there is also nothing wrong with other people not giving a crap about what you have done, and wanting to have their own fun. Strict exclusivity is bad in a pay to play game.

It was perfectly fine up until ICC

[Volitar]

I would LOVE if they brought back all tiers being relevant. instead of just skipping into LFR you had to do the raids 1-2 tiers behind. That way you can gear up while actually raiding and not just do mindless lfr.

[Pandapuncher]

I would LOVE if they brought back all tiers being relevant. instead of just skipping into LFR you had to do the raids 1-2 tiers behind. That way you can gear up while actually raiding and not just do mindless lfr.

Id like to know why this was removed. With new systems like OQ it would work

[Deleted]

I would LOVE if they brought back all tiers being relevant. instead of just skipping into LFR you had to do the raids 1-2 tiers behind. That way you can gear up while actually raiding and not just do mindless lfr.

And this is my point about tbc and other expansions not being exclusive but having content specifically for all the player base, there was throughout the expansion a great sense of progression for everyone regardless of hours played and the content was engaging and challenging depending on where you were.

[Barnabas]

Id like to know why this was removed. With new systems like OQ it would work

Because Blizzard rather get you into the new raid as quick as possible. This has to do with the casual audience the game attracts. You know the players that make up that huge churn you see every expansion and raid tier? They can't be arsed to go back tiers to get more powerful items. Then you have to consider the time the developers have to make the content they release and the expectation from the playerbase to release stuff faster and faster. The TBC model just doesn't fit that segment. That segment bitched about how they didn't have much to do, difficulty etc.

[Gangplank]

I'm very old-school WoW with the notion that you had to earn your loot by putting time into conquering difficult content. I do think you should be able to clearly distinguish players who have put time into difficult content vs players who have only done the bare minimum on the lowest content.

The gym membership comparison is applicable. You just need to re-word it to say that the guy who doesn't put in as much time and effort as the others in the gym still wants to have equally big muscles or have the same fitness level. It's the exact same comparison as the player who doesn't put in as much time or effort in WoW, but still wants to look epic and have all the same goodies that the progression raiders get.