Bashiok Elaborates on No-Flying in WoD

[Tragedia]

True, but the length of the postponment is still undecided. Whether it will be postponed until the start of 6.1, or until the next expac, or later. Following recent events would lead one to think they are very much considering not having flight through out the length of WoD, hence the amount of disquiet.

Which I agree that not having flight accessible throughout the whole expansion is a bad move, I simply think people are taking it way to extreme. I have no doubt that Blizzard will allow us to fly soon after initial content is no longer current.

[CheeseSandwich]

Not true. They aren't allowing flying in WoD content at launch, and have made no promises about when or IF they will allow it in WoD, or in any later expansion.

The general consensus from reading various Blizzard postings is that Blizzard is in favor of not having flying in WoD at all.

What he says, in essence, is true. They haven't officially cancelled flying, they just haven't said when it will be available again. So it is a postponement until further notice.

[Tragedia]

Not true. They aren't allowing flying in WoD content at launch, and have made no promises about when or IF they will allow it in WoD, or in any later expansion.

The general consensus from reading various Blizzard postings is that Blizzard would prefer to have flying in WoD at all.

The genera consensus is that it is too early to make a call and say when they are implementing. Hopefully once beta is in its last stages we will know.

[LookingGlass]

The removal of flight on PvE server is a dumb move and brings 0 benefit to the players.
No matter how you slice it, it is a needless restriction.

But it obviously brings advantages for Blizzard or they wouldn't risk losing subs about the issue.

The removal of flight is more of a benefit to PVE'ers than it is to PvP'ers. What with all that 90-100 content and endgame content that has the player fighting the environment and all. PvE'ers are supposed to enjoy questing, exploration, lore and challenging and meaningful PvE content right?....


As much as you want to fly in circles in Stormwind or Orgrimmar, restricting flying generally improves all the other aspects of the game world and the pros of restriction outweigh the cons.


Does Blizzard want to slow the content down so that it lasts longer and doesn't get eaten up by players who skip everything and fly around at 300% speed?

Ya, they probably do. But how is longer lasting content worse than skipping everything and burning it up in the first weeks? It's not and it won't be.

It is because it saves them money?

Probably not. If they release content on average every 3 months... and with flying, players finish it in 1 month... but without flying, players finish it in 3 months...

They're still spending the same amount of money to hit that 3 month cycle, but us players aren't sitting around with nothing to do for 2 months.



What is even worse than no-flying in WoD, is the next expansion if Blizzard caves in and restores flying. It'll be that expansion that just bails on quests, bails on exploration, and bails on everything that happens outside of instances because the players have told them that well, they just don't give a shit.

They'll pour all their resources into instanced content and a city to fly circles in while you wait for your queues.

And guess what we get for all that? Still no flying in instances. Just Blizzard giving up on the outdoor game world because their money is wasted there.

Imagine the whining then.

[CheeseSandwich]

Which I agree that not having flight accessible throughout the whole expansion is a bad move, I simply think people are taking it way to extreme. I have no doubt that Blizzard will allow us to fly soon after initial content is no longer current.

Ah, but will they do it because of player sentiment, or out of desperation to retain subs?

See, by treading this path, Blizz runs the risk of losing those that have flying as their breaking point. By saying unequivically "flying will be back at this point" gives people something to reason against and refer too. By saying "we dunno" lends people to think "Well if Blizz doesnt know wtf they are doing, why should I wait for them to make up their mind?"
As a major gaming company, saying we don;t know or we aren't sure yet to a base of subscribers doesnt fill the majority with confidence.

[Vandexander]

What he says, in essence, is true. They haven't officially cancelled flying, they just haven't said when it will be available again. So it is a postponement until further notice.

Since Blizz keeps talking about and trying to justify no-fly, I interpret their actions as "cancelled for now" rather than a postponement. They have given no indication that flying will be available in WoD at all. For exampled, when asked when flying will be implemented, if at all, Baishok's reply was:

We don't know. We don't purport to have definitive answers for anything, especially before we've even begun external testing.

[Granyala]

The removal of flight is more of a benefit to PVE'ers than it is to PvP'ers. What with all that 90-100 content and endgame content that has the player fighting the environment and all. PvE'ers are supposed to enjoy questing, exploration, lore and challenging and meaningful PvE content right?....

Maximum level repeatable open world content neither contains lore to enjoy (You do X because reputation) nor does it contain any challenge whatsoever (Since challenging quests would lead to MASSIVE QQ fests from the average players that even wipe! in LFRs).
I'm all for grounding people for the initial quest experience.
Grounding them AFTER completion of said experience is simply unnecessary.

[CheeseSandwich]

The removal of flight is more of a benefit to PVE'ers than it is to PvP'ers. What with all that 90-100 content and endgame content that has the player fighting the environment and all. PvE'ers are supposed to enjoy questing, exploration, lore and challenging and meaningful PvE content right?....


As much as you want to fly in circles in Stormwind or Orgrimmar, restricting flying generally improves all the other aspects of the game world and the pros of restriction outweigh the cons.


Does Blizzard want to slow the content down so that it lasts longer and doesn't get eaten up by players who skip everything and fly around at 300% speed?

Ya, they probably do. But how is longer lasting content worse than skipping everything and burning it up in the first weeks? It's not and it won't be.

It is because it saves them money?

Probably not. If they release content on average every 3 months... and with flying, players finish it in 1 month... but without flying, players finish it in 3 months...

They're still spending the same amount of money to hit that 3 month cycle, but us players aren't sitting around with nothing to do for 2 months.



What is even worse than no-flying in WoD, is the next expansion if Blizzard caves in and restores flying. It'll be that expansion that just bails on quests, bails on exploration, and bails on everything that happens outside of instances because the players have told them that well, they just don't give a shit.

They'll pour all their resources into instanced content and a city to fly circles in while you wait for your queues.

And guess what we get for all that? Still no flying in instances. Just Blizzard giving up on the outdoor game world because their money is wasted there.

Imagine the whining then.

Remove flying from questing. No one is arguing for that. Forget that.

Why is it that Blizz can only develoup content that takes multiple weeks to do refined to the ground? Why can't they, or why is it an impossibilty for them to make long lasting and engaging air game play?

Why is restricting people to the same restraints as every competing MMO a good thing, rather than fine tuning the thing that makes WoW unique?

And what is this nonsense about a 3 month cycle? Surely that must only apply when Blizz wants it to. During the last patch of MoP, the current live patch, they are gonna go close to 5x3 month cycles of no new content. What makes you think without flying this would be any better? Is it maybe they can cut dev costs?

Isn't pouring resources into instanced content what they are doing now?? The major push of WoW recently is to raid, where is the incentive for me as a player to go into the world, if i can get everything through instances?

Blizz set the parameters of the limits of gameplay, and when they remove one of the key components of gameplay in their game, simply for the sake of "You can skip quest mobs", it seems to many as a lack of imagination in how to push their design forward, and it smacks of resignation on the part of the WoW devs.

Since Blizz keeps talking about and trying to justify no-fly, I interpret their actions as "cancelled for now" rather than a postponement. They have given no indication that flying will be available in WoD at all. For exampled, when asked when flying will be implemented, if at all, Baishok's reply was:

We don't know. We don't purport to have definitive answers for anything, especially before we've even begun external testing.

Oh I agree with your sentiment, but until they definitavely come out and say flying is not in WoD at all, we can only assume it is a postponement until 6.1, like they said at Blizzcon '13.

[LookingGlass]

Maximum level repeatable open world content neither contains lore to enjoy (You do X because reputation) nor does it contain any challenge whatsoever (Since challenging quests would lead to MASSIVE QQ fests from the average players that even wipe! in LFRs).
I'm all for grounding people for the initial quest experience.
Grounding them AFTER completion of said experience is simply unnecessary.

Who says it's all repeatable? Blizzard specifically said that they want zones to progress. And they're adding a major quest line separate from normal quests that will likely be added to over the entire expansion.

They're clearly backing away from the "dailies for rep" mold.

You, like so many others, are applying this no-flying thing to MoP and past expansions while ignoring the changes that Blizzard is going to make.

WoD is the sum of all of its parts. You can't look at no-flying and say it's going to be horrible because you can't know. There are 50 other changes going on that make it better.

This isn't MoP without flying, this is WoD without flying. The sooner you people realize this the better.

Wait to actually try it instead of imagining crazy things in your head.

[Tragedia]

Maximum level repeatable open world content neither contains lore to enjoy (You do X because reputation) nor does it contain any challenge whatsoever (Since challenging quests would lead to MASSIVE QQ fests from the average players that even wipe! in LFRs).
I'm all for grounding people for the initial quest experience.
Grounding them AFTER completion of said experience is simply unnecessary.

They are keeping us on the ground because there will be places similar to TI all throughout Draenor. Why waste time adding elite mobs and events if people are just gonna fly over them. Should they also add flying in raids so we can skip thrash?

[Cassidin]

Not true. They aren't allowing flying in WoD content at launch, and have made no promises about when or IF they will allow it in WoD, or in any later expansion.

The general consensus from reading various Blizzard postings is that Blizzard would prefer to have flying in WoD at all.

Indeed... they previously said it will come in 6.1.... then they said something that made people wonder about if it would come even then... and now they say very clearly they havent decided when it will come... if at all.

[Infernix]

They are keeping us on the ground because there will be places similar to TI all throughout Draenor. Why waste time adding elite mobs and events if people are just gonna fly over them. Should they also add flying in raids so we can skip thrash?

Correction: They're keeping you on the ground because it's cheaper to make 2 axis zones rather than 3 axis zones.

Let's not pretend it's anything other than the desire for more money that's driving this cost-cutting filler expansion.

[Flutterguy]

That's assuming I don't just ride straight up to the named guy, kill him and anything that's still chasing me, mount up, and ride straight back out, regardless of my spec. (I agree with you completely, just saying...)

*shrug* I doubt anything will convince Blizzard or the anti-flying crowd, except time. We shall see. (Assuming that I don't bail and find another game to play; every announcement that's come out for WoD has killed my enthusiasm).

This flying thing isn't enough to kill my desire to play the new expansion, but I just don't accept Bashiok's reasoning. They are either hiding their true reason(which I think revolves around the creation of art assets in future expansions) or they actually believe this which then makes me wonder who is running the asylum?

I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but I would challenge Bashiok to first explain how the content as it is now isn't already trivial even with the flying removed.

[urasim]

Oh I agree with your sentiment, but until they definitavely come out and say flying is not in WoD at all, we can only assume it is a postponement until 6.1, like they said at Blizzcon '13.

It is wrong to assume anything. We don't know just like they(Blizzard) don't know.

[Cassidin]

This isn't MoP without flying, this is WoD without flying. The sooner you people realize this the better.

I think people realise this quite well..... but other people need to realise that for some people flying is a major feature that makes wow unique in the mmo sphere... it may even be their reason for being here. However good something else is - removing it is going to spoil some people's game-play. Blizzard may not care about that - but its still true.

[LookingGlass]

Remove flying from questing. No one is arguing for that. Forget that.

Why is it that Blizz can only develoup content that takes multiple weeks to do refined to the ground? Why can't they, or why is it an impossibilty for them to make long lasting and engaging air game play?

Why is restricting people to the same restraints as every competing MMO a good thing, rather than fine tuning the thing that makes WoW unique?

And what is this nonsense about a 3 month cycle? Surely that must only apply when Blizz wants it to. During the last patch of MoP, the current live patch, they are gonna go close to 5x3 month cycles of no new content. What makes you think without flying this would be any better? Is it maybe they can cut dev costs?

Isn't pouring resources into instanced content what they are doing now?? The major push of WoW recently is to raid, where is the incentive for me as a player to go into the world, if i can get everything through instances?

Blizz set the parameters of the limits of gameplay, and when they remove one of the key components of gameplay in their game, simply for the sake of "You can skip quest mobs", it seems to many as a lack of imagination in how to push their design forward, and it smacks of resignation on the part of the WoW devs.

It's clearly not a resignation. To live in some imaginary world where Blizzard didn't even contemplate the idea of designing flight-centered content is insane.

If you want flight content that lasts as long as ground content, well you just blow up the world size by 300% right? And you put most everything indoors. And you build everything else on cliffs and mountains and terraces and structures.

It quickly becomes NOT Warcraft right? It's this weird thing that looks nothing like what people imagine as Warcraft.


And what if they want questing and exploration and world PvP to be RIGHT THERE with the other core pillars of WoW like raiding, dungeons, battlegrounds and arenas?

What if they want those things to be challenging and rewarding and meaningful but they don't want to turn the game into some weird flying fantasy NOT Warcraft thing.


I say again, you guys know deep down you're on the wrong side of this argument. If it doesn't work, all the other no-flying people will join you and Blizzard will change it back, but that requires you to actually try it.

What if it does work though? What if WoD feels like a better, more complete, more engaging, more Warcraft-y experience?

Then the game is better and everyone wins. We can't know until we try and at this point, no one has tried the whole picture.

[Klokie]

Correction: They're keeping you on the ground because it's cheaper to make 2 axis zones rather than 3 axis zones.

Let's not pretend it's anything other than the desire for more money that's driving this cost-cutting filler expansion.

You keep using a word you dont know the meaning of.

[CheeseSandwich]

They are keeping us on the ground because there will be places similar to TI all throughout Draenor. Why waste time adding elite mobs and events if people are just gonna fly over them. Should they also add flying in raids so we can skip thrash?

One could argue that if those elite mobs and events were worth doing, no one would be flying over them. I still see heaps of calls for invite for Galleon, despite the gear he drops being obsolete, and despite the fact people can just fly over. Because he drops something that is worth the investment of time the player puts in. I really can't see the problem in adding ground events people flying would want to do.

[Tharkkun]

True, but the length of the postponment is still undecided. Whether it will be postponed until the start of 6.1, or until the next expac, or later. Following recent events would lead one to think they are very much considering not having flight through out the length of WoD, hence the amount of disquiet.

They haven't said anything because the expansion hasn't even made it into beta. They have months to decide how they want Flying to work still. No one *needs* to know now.

[Tragedia]

This flying thing isn't enough to kill my desire to play the new expansion, but I just don't accept Bashiok's reasoning. They are either hiding their true reason(which I think revolves around the creation of art assets in future expansions) or they actually believe this which then makes me wonder who is running the asylum?

I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but I would challenge Bashiok to first explain how the content as it is now isn't already trivial even with the flying removed.

The WoD content won't be like MoP content, they are adding TI-like events in WoD zones.