Welfare Tier Sets

[cabyio]

and that is exactly the problem with todays wow - people like you who want to be caried and creating ilevel 550 needed for 530 content - if all people like you left wow it would be fine.

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right and after 6 month of flex you would probably have goten ZERO....

If you are doing it every week, possible but not likely. I personally have gotten 1 out of normal and 3 out of flex.

[Sansnom]

The really good thing about this change is that we will be able to visually see weather a player is a raider or not by the gear they are wearing now. Before, you would have to inspect them, know which color scheme was for what level of raid they did, and more often than not, inspecting someone only to see "Raid Finder" in their gear was a major let down.

So you judge players by their "color". Good to know.

[The Glitch]

The really good thing about this change is that we will be able to visually see weather a player is a raider or not by the gear they are wearing now. Before, you would have to inspect them, know which color scheme was for what level of raid they did, and more often than not, inspecting someone only to see "Raid Finder" in their gear was a major let down.

Now we dont have to worry about that because we can just look at them and know weather or not we should bring them to our raids if we need an extra person.

Its going to be like it was back in TBC where you knew a player was good simply by the raid gear they were wearing.

You still have to inspect people, because hello transmog. Oh and gear doesn't make you good, just means the other people in your group are. Oh also its *Whether*.

[Teebone]

"I'm not slowing my group down"

This right here. Your not part of the problem at all. In fact I don't mind at all that you get gear and have fun in a lower difficulty. It's the bad LFR players that are the issue, because they bring the whole thing down. I hope players like you will run flex in WoD. It's a much better environment and I think you'd like it.

I'm stunned that people think Flex will stay that way. It's already gotten toxic lately "LF iLVL 560+ for flex group 1! MUST HAVE CLOAK!". And it will
continue to get worse. This is not a solution but yet another problem waiting to happen.

[Nobleshield]

But you are claiming that there is "work" involved in getting LFR gear. That is a very disagreed upon idea.
Work, in terms of world of warcraft, is really just seen in higher up raiding, where it is seen as almost a 2nd job. The amount of preparing that needs to be done, the amount of coordination that needs to happen, the amount of activity, sometimes strenuous, is not even close to what happens in LFR.

There is nothing wrong with a casual mode, such as LFR, but you cannot claim that it is "work" any more than saying that watching 2 seasons of breaking bad straight with no breaks is "work." So you are not being rewarded with accordance with effort level. If you were truly being rewarded in accordance with effort level, then atleast dungeon loot would have been equal to, or better than timeless isle gear or LFR.

There certainly is "work" in LFR, although it's certainly not as much for Flex/Normal/Heroic. And as a result the rewards are less. This whole "everyone is AFK in LFR" thing is a myth. You get the occasional troll/griefer who does it just to see if they can (and likely then use it as anecdotal evidence in why LFR should be removed) but it's very rare and they're usually found out and removed from the group.

What you are basically saying is that someone working minimum wage shouldn't be allowed to buy a car that looks like a Ferrari 458 Spider but has faux everything but only costs $15,000, because it would somehow make the $257,000 Ferrari 458 Spider less prestigious even though the cheap version is functionally a Toyota Corolla that looks like a Ferrari.

[Jaylock]

You still have to inspect people, because hello transmog. Oh and gear doesn't make you good, just means the other people in your group are. Oh also its *Whether*.

Why do people always claim and assume that "just because someone has high end gear they were carried to it" or "other people in your group are good, not you"? Thats just ignorant to assume and think something like that.

There are exceptions of course. Of course some people get carried that really arent that good. But do you think high end raiding guilds would continue to bring a crap player who under performs on every fight?

Even if thats the case, I would rather bring someone with the gear to accomplish the task over someone who thinks they are good with shit LFR gear. A pick up group leader has no information on if that player is good or not unless he/she has raided with them before, and so gear is the only indication of skill no matter how much you want to refute that.

[nekobaka]

I think the TBC sets were more of just Blizzard being lazy and not wanting to design PvP armor sets at the time. Also, for the majority of Wrath you could only vendor 1-2 pieces of tier through badges and trying to vendor a full set of tier through badges (during ToC and ICC) was nearly impossible for a non-raider because of the abysmally low amount of badges you would get if you didn't raid (like 2 a day? One piece of tier costed like 50+?).

Something many Cata haters ignored especially those who complained about the rewards from heroics. Cata brought in a number of changes that reduced grinds and increased rates of rewards for non-raiders, but hey if they was so happy with WotLK then perhaps we should go back to that where non-raiders once again get a drop in a bucket and progress casually aka slowly.

[Thage]

Why do people always claim and assume that "just because someone has high end gear they were carried to it" or "other people in your group are good, not you"? Thats just ignorant to assume and think something like that.

Why do people like you assume everyone in LFR AFK'd their way to their sets? You of all people have no room to call someone else out on being facetious.

There are exceptions of course. Of course some people get carried that really arent that good. But do you think high end raiding guilds would continue to bring a crap player who under performs on every fight?

Your raid leader must have been single back in TBC.

Even if thats the case, I would rather bring someone with the gear to accomplish the task over someone who thinks they are good with shit LFR gear. A pick up group leader has no information on if that player is good or not unless he/she has raided with them before, and so gear is the only indication of skill no matter how much you want to refute that.

Which brings us to the problems that have run rampant in pug "culture" since the days of TBC heroics, where people will require pugs to massively outgear the content they're running and people putting together groups to tackle the content for upgrades sit in LFG/Trade for hours while being ridiculed. It didn't change in Wrath when people started demanding ICC25 gearscore and achievement for ICC10 pugs, it didn't change when people demanded Firelands 25 achievements for Firelands 10 pugs, and it sure hasn't changed with people demanding 550 ilvl and the cloak for Flex pugs.

[cabyio]

Why do people like you assume everyone in LFR AFK'd their way to their sets? You of all people have no room to call someone else out on being facetious.

I don't think anyone thinks that 100% of LFR players just AFK to loot. The problem is that anyone can. It shouldn't be possible for anyone to do that.

Which brings us to the problems that have run rampant in pug "culture" since the days of TBC heroics, where people will require pugs to massively outgear the content they're running and people putting together groups to tackle the content for upgrades sit in LFG/Trade for hours while being ridiculed. It didn't change in Wrath when people started demanding ICC25 gearscore and achievement for ICC10 pugs, it didn't change when people demanded Firelands 25 achievements for Firelands 10 pugs, and it sure hasn't changed with people demanding 550 ilvl and the cloak for Flex pugs.

This is why it is good to have a guild. If you have people that know and respect you it can help you do the things you want. Go out on your own because you don't wanna be social and you shouldn't be surprised when people stick it to you. They don't know you why should they give you the benefit of the doubt?

[Jaylock]

Why do people like you assume everyone in LFR AFK'd their way to their sets? You of all people have no room to call someone else out on being facetious.

Your raid leader must have been single back in TBC.

Which brings us to the problems that have run rampant in pug "culture" since the days of TBC heroics, where people will require pugs to massively outgear the content they're running and people putting together groups to tackle the content for upgrades sit in LFG/Trade for hours while being ridiculed. It didn't change in Wrath when people started demanding ICC25 gearscore and achievement for ICC10 pugs, it didn't change when people demanded Firelands 25 achievements for Firelands 10 pugs, and it sure hasn't changed with people demanding 550 ilvl and the cloak for Flex pugs.

Pug culture will always be pug culture, i dont see any problems you seem to think there are. How else should a raid leader looking to clear a raid in a decent amount of time go about inviting people to their raid group?

Really, please answer that question. Should he just invite anyone breathing with LFR gear? What do you propose the solution to the "problem" be? Oh wait, I know, GUILDS! If they want to avoid the culture where they are excluded because their gear isnt up to par, they should join a guild and find time to progress with them.

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This is why it is good to have a guild. If you have people that know and respect you it can help you do the things you want. Go out on your own because you don't wanna be social and you shouldn't be surprised when people stick it to you. They don't know you why should they give you the benefit of the doubt?

This guy gets it. You and I are on the same wavelength man!

[cabyio]

This guy gets it. You and I are on the same wavelength man!

Ha was just about to post the same thing! :P

[Farabee]

Back in WotLK we had tier sets that players could buy with badges of valor. Essentially it became known as "Welfare Tier Sets." This upset players greatly, and it didnt work out like blizzard had thought it would. So they no longer went that route in future patches and expansions. They brought back tier tokens for the specific pieces that drops only in raids, which is what the player base really wanted.

Um, considering WOTLK is where the subscriber count peaked, I'm pretty sure that only a minority (albeit a very vocal one) was unhappy with this system. This made it really easy to gear alts and even helped hardcore guilds when they needed a certain class comp for specific fights (more healers for HC25 Valithria for example). The only problems with this system were:

1. You had to do all the raids on all possible difficulties during TOTC to get the max number of badges to buy your stuff. This was alleviated somewhat in ICC with heroics being on the same lockout, but you still had to do 10 and 25 in the same week if you needed anything from badges.

2. Bosses didn't drop straight tier tokens during ICC, they just dropped "upgrade" tokens and you had to buy the actual base ilvl piece (251) with badges to upgrade it to 264 with a drop from the 25-man ICC (10man didn't drop any tier). If you got a heroic token, you had to buy the piece plus upgrade it with a "normal" token. If you were in a decent guild it was possible to get a piece that you couldn't upgrade for some time, and in the case of offspec tier you had to farm the badges all over again.

3. Because of the last two points, players got burned out quickly from having to redo the raids on their mains even needing no loot from them.

Nobody was unhappy with "welfare tier". There were just issues with feeling obligated to farm badges because of it. To this day, I think ICC-era WOTLK was the most active I've ever been in the game.

[Jaylock]

Um, considering WOTLK is where the subscriber count peaked, I'm pretty sure that only a minority (albeit a very vocal one) was unhappy with this system. This made it really easy to gear alts and even helped hardcore guilds when they needed a certain class comp for specific fights (more healers for HC25 Valithria for example). The only problems with this system were:

1. You had to do all the raids on all possible difficulties during TOTC to get the max number of badges to buy your stuff. This was alleviated somewhat in ICC with heroics being on the same lockout, but you still had to do 10 and 25 in the same week if you needed anything from badges.

Just because something is available does not mean you HAVE to do it. And those who felt they HAVE to do that every week, clearing all modes were a small small small minority of people who are looking to be competitive in the high end raiding scene.

2. Bosses didn't drop straight tier tokens during ICC, they just dropped "upgrade" tokens and you had to buy the actual base ilvl piece (251) with badges to upgrade it to 264 with a drop from the 25-man ICC (10man didn't drop any tier). If you got a heroic token, you had to buy the piece plus upgrade it with a "normal" token. If you were in a decent guild it was possible to get a piece that you couldn't upgrade for some time, and in the case of offspec tier you had to farm the badges all over again.

Which was a flawed system. TBC and early WotLK had the right system of just dropping tier tokens for the actual equipment slots. Using valor badges to first buy the shit token to get the 10 man gear, then having to upgrade it through token upgrades, then having to upgrade those through heroic tokens was a stupid system, and it greatly irritated players. Upgrading tier gear is a dumb and confusing system, which is why they reverted back to the TBC model in MoP, and looks to be continuing it (with needed improvements like removing tier from LFR) in WoD.

3. Because of the last two points, players got burned out quickly from having to redo the raids on their mains even needing no loot from them.

Again, players burn themselves out. Just because something is available does not mean you have to do it. If people took a step back and took a breath and realized, "hey i can play this game on my own pace" and did that, there would be no issue. LFR was an attempt at giving people who are not willing to get into high end raiding a chance to do that.

No one ever quit the game because there was too much content anyway.

Nobody was unhappy with "welfare tier". There were just issues with feeling obligated to farm badges because of it. To this day, I think ICC-era WOTLK was the most active I've ever been in the game.

The problem was the ability for any mouth breather to be able to purchase the tier sets with currency rather than earning them from bosses in raids. If my memory serves me right, a person could farm the piss easy wotlk heroic and over time could have a full set of raid tier WITHOUT RAIDING. Thats just stupid game design.

[Nobleshield]

Just because something is available does not mean you HAVE to do it. And those who felt they HAVE to do that every week, clearing all modes were a small small small minority of people who are looking to be competitive in the high end raiding scene.

Yes, and that minority can safely be ignored because they are the outliers and so far out of the normal curve as to be inconsequential.

Which was a flawed system. TBC and early WotLK had the right system of just dropping tier tokens for the actual equipment slots. Using valor badges to first buy the shit token to get the 10 man gear, then having to upgrade it through token upgrades, then having to upgrade those through heroic tokens was a stupid system, and it greatly irritated players. Upgrading tier gear is a dumb and confusing system, which is why they reverted back to the TBC model in MoP, and looks to be continuing it (with needed improvements like removing tier from LFR) in WoD.

Explain why TBC is the better solution; that's also the way we have it now correct? Where Boss D drops chest, and Boss F drops hands, etc. Personally I preferred the ToC style where you had one token you could redeem for any piece that you wanted, versus "needing" a specific boss. Also you take yet another shot at LFR; why exactly is removing tier from LFR an "improvement" besides the tired old saw of debating who "deserves" gear, which never ends up anywhere other than a heated argument over entitlement.

Again, players burn themselves out. Just because something is available does not mean you have to do it. If people took a step back and took a breath and realized, "hey i can play this game on my own pace" and did that, there would be no issue. LFR was an attempt at giving people who are not willing to get into high end raiding a chance to do that.

No, LFR was an attempt to allow everybody to experience the storyline rather than a small minority of people. LFR giving rewards is a necessary evil since the key concept in any game with character progression is to progress your character via becoming more powerful - before the level cap this is via leveling and gear, after the level cap it's gear alone as WoW has nothing like D3's Paragon levels or Rift's Planar Attunements that give you "levels" beyond the level cap.

The problem was the ability for any mouth breather to be able to purchase the tier sets with currency rather than earning them from bosses in raids. If my memory serves me right, a person could farm the piss easy wotlk heroic and over time could have a full set of raid tier WITHOUT RAIDING. Thats just stupid game design.

You seem to equate everything with your vague concept of "earning", and you're still incorrect. The WOTLK model worked fine, because it allowed everyone to obtain gear at their own pace; if you only did 5-man dungeons you could eventually get the high-level gear, but you would get it much slower than a raider as it should be. That's *good* game design. Personally I would like if the entire game was built around that concept, based on group size, and extend to solo as well. So, for example, you could do every dungeon and raid in the game solo and feel like Conan the Barbarian, but you would get the rewards much slower than someone who ran the content with a small or large group, as doing it solo is easier; the individual player can choose how they want to play the game and the only difference is speed.

You seem to have a strong dislike of people that you deem inferior (based on whatever criteria) having the same things as you, even if they look slightly different and are much weaker than your version (e.g. LFR tier), based on some abstract concept that you "deserve" it and they do not, based again on some arbitrary criteria. This idea is completely flawed because LFR's tier gear was mathematically *inferior* to the other tier. Going back to my previous analogy this is like arguing that if you own a souped-up Ferrari that cost you $250,000 somebody else shouldn't be allowed to buy a Toyota Corolla for $15,000 that has a Ferrari's body style but the performance of a Corolla, because it somehow invalidates your $250,000 Ferrari that performs better in every way.

I am in favor of tier in LFR and this is as someone who burned himself out by running Flex and even LFR every week to try and get that tier bonus.

[The Glitch]

Why do people always claim and assume that "just because someone has high end gear they were carried to it" or "other people in your group are good, not you"? Thats just ignorant to assume and think something like that.

Same way you claim that someone with LFR gear are lesser skilled players? Works both ways Jaylock, Except I actually don't judge people on what gear they are wearing, but thanks for making my point

[Zardi]

While we are at it, why don't we just remove Tier sets altogether except for Mythic? It's clearly next step, Mythic raiders drawing the same "line", and calling Normal and Heroic raiders inferior and undeserving of their loot. After all, Normal is easy, and everyone can do it - so it's almost welfare, and therefore Normal and Heroic raiders have no right to feel entitled to getting tier sets, which are the pinnacle of prestige.

See how your own argument works?

[The Glitch]

While we are at it, why don't we just remove Tier sets altogether except for Mythic? It's clearly next step, Mythic raiders drawing the same "line", and calling Normal and Heroic raiders inferior and undeserving of their loot. After all, Normal is easy, and everyone can do it - so it's almost welfare, and therefore Normal and Heroic raiders have no right to feel entitled to getting tier sets, which are the pinnacle of prestige.

See how your own argument works?

He's went offline! No point, he always logs off when people come up with a counter to his silly posts. Then waits till a few pages have been filled so he can come back and ignore the counter posts and continue to spew his disdain for everyone that doesn't agree with him

[Stonecloak]

I'm almost all but done with wow, and everything else included with it. There's definitely some good peeps who still play, but the entitled players are just taking over. There are enough mmo's out now to easily make a change. Not being stuck with the foolish ideology that wow is somehow the best, and only mmo. Even with the changes implemented in WoD. I have a sense a lot of entitled players will do their best to ruin it. It's gotten out of hand and at this point Blizzard is patching up an old dead horse. The only way to create a good mmo community is to start out fresh, and not allow the lowest common denominator to control the game. It was a relationship with developer and player in vanilla/bc, and then it became a service, and that's when the game started to deteriorate. WoD is an attempt to get it back, but I have my doubts. The games been infected, and I'm afraid it's at the point of no return. Too many people defending flawed ideologies about an mmo have all but forced out a massive amount of players, and I'm sure there are going to be the usual comments of goodbye. Don't let the door hit you, ect. Those people don't realize that eventually they will have nobody to play with. Because it's an mmo, not a free loot shopping spree, or a class rights game akin to woman's rights. It's an mmo, and right now I can't even recognize it as being one.

[Jaylock]

Yes, and that minority can safely be ignored because they are the outliers.

Outliers? I just think the group that thinks they are hardcore and progression oriented arent really that way, they just like to pretend they are so they put on the show that they feel obligated to run ToC in all 4 modes each week to stay competitive. The ones who really feel that way are the world first / realm first heroic raiders, which is understandable. And the point is, blizzard creates content, but they choose to run everything they make for the sake of staying competitive. Its quite silly, but some people can dedicate that time to the game.

Explain why TBC is the better solution; that's also the way we have it now correct? Where Boss D drops chest, and Boss F drops hands, etc. Personally I preferred the ToC style where you had one token you could redeem for any piece that you wanted, versus "needing" a specific boss. Also you take yet another shot at LFR; why exactly is removing tier from LFR an "improvement" besides the tired old saw of debating who "deserves" gear, which never ends up anywhere other than a heated argument over entitlement.

Let me put it this way, when you saw someone wearing a Tier 5 chest peice in TBC, you instantly knew that player was a good player (or at least a very decent player). Why? Because he killed Kael'thas, who was considered one of the most challenging raid bosses at the time, harder than some of the tier 6 bosses. Having badges to buy tier gear is frankly retarded. It indicates no effort because of HOW the badges can be obtained. This is why players were so upset back then because it in effect diminished the effort it takes to kill those raid bosses. This is related to the same issue people have with LFR. For 1, tier gear in LFR creates the situation where raiders feel obligated to do LFR for the sole purpose of getting the set bonus completed, and 2, it looks the exact same as someone in heroic tier gear just recolored. Back to the original topic, having tier pieces drop off certain bosses, indicates to other players that the player had to do something somewhat difficult (if you raid flex) to very challenging (if you raid heroic). Having tier in LFR goes against these principles completely. As for players "deserving" gear, it has nothing to do with deserving or not deserving, it has everything to do with "you get tier if you put effort into getting it"

No, LFR was an attempt to allow everybody to experience the storyline rather than a small minority of people. LFR giving rewards is a necessary evil since the key concept in any game with character progression is to progress your character via becoming more powerful - before the level cap this is via leveling and gear, after the level cap it's gear alone as WoW has nothing like D3's Paragon levels or Rift's Planar Attunements that give you "levels" beyond the level cap.

If LFR was an attempt at only allowing people to experience the storyline, they wouldn't have put loot into it in the first place. The reason they put loot into it because they know the real motives of casuals and bad players is solely for gear (and fun). They want to have all the gear that heroic raiders have, yet they are unwilling to put in the effort to obtaining it, therefore to make them feel "good" blizzard threw some low level epics in there. They knew if they didnt put gear in there, casuals claiming all they want is to experience the story and kill the bosses wouldn't run it because of their real motive.

You seem to equate everything with your vague concept of "earning", and you're still incorrect. The WOTLK model worked fine, because it allowed everyone to obtain gear at their own pace; if you only did 5-man dungeons you could eventually get the high-level gear, but you would get it much slower than a raider as it should be. That's *good* game design. Personally I would like if the entire game was built around that concept, based on group size, and extend to solo as well. So, for example, you could do every dungeon and raid in the game solo and feel like Conan the Barbarian, but you would get the rewards much slower than someone who ran the content with a small or large group, as doing it solo is easier; the individual player can choose how they want to play the game and the only difference is speed.

Everyone could already earn it at their own pace by killing the bosses associated with the token that was supposed to drop from each boss. It just so happens they decided to make the tokens upgrade tokens instead of item slot tokens. Having a badge system available to people who dont raid to buy RAID GEAR and RAID TIER is not commensurate to the effort that should be required to obtain RAID GEAR.

You seem to have a strong dislike of people that you deem inferior (based on whatever criteria) having the same things as you, even if they look slightly different and are much weaker than your version (e.g. LFR tier), based on some abstract concept that you "deserve" it and they do not, based again on some arbitrary criteria. This idea is completely flawed because LFR's tier gear was mathematically *inferior* to the other tier. Going back to my previous analogy this is like arguing that if you own a souped-up Ferrari that cost you $250,000 somebody else shouldn't be allowed to buy a Toyota Corolla for $15,000 that has a Ferrari's body style but the performance of a Corolla, because it somehow invalidates your $250,000 Ferrari that performs better in every way.

I dislike people who want free handouts, or who want rewards for minimal effort. I dislike the "gimmie gimmie" generation of people who have an entitlement complex, and they take their entitlement complex into the games they play. I dislike people who think governments (tax payers) should pay for all of their living expenses, health care expenses, social programs, housing, rent, food, etc etc etc. Attitudes who are dependent on governments (tax payers) usually translate into everything they do in life, including playing games. Wow was originally built on the concept of rewards for effort. It has shyed away from that concept to try to cater to a generation that is not loyal to anything but themselves, and expect handouts and things given to them for minimal effort.

And I don't care that LFR's gear is "mathematically inferior" to the other difficulties of tier gear, and your analogy is completely flawed with your ferrari example. LFR gear is like having the ferreri body with a Corolla engine. You look like you are bad ass, but your engine is fucking terrible. These players want the illusion that they are bad ass, and they often try to skirt the progression path to get carried to real raid gear, and then they come to forums and whine and moan that its "too hard to get into flex mode. Its too hard because no one will accept me to raid with them, even though I am a great raider and I probably know what im doing better than someone in raid gear who was carried to that gear." Their excuse for anyone with high end raid gear is that "they were carried there by their guild" Oh no! they couldn't possibly have worked hard and contributed a ton or equally to their raid group to obtain that gear! No thats not a possibility at all! "They are just privileged to be carried!" (and that is usually the arguement against the rich in real life as well... funny how it translates perfectly to gaming). Setting aside political topics, or social topics (even though they relate so well to gaming)..

The point is, LFR is now going in a direction in WoD that will still allow casual players to be rewarded with similarily powerful gear (compared to how LFR is right now), but now, if those players really want the cool looks, raid tier gear, etc, (the real meat and potatoes of raiding if you will) they will have to put a little more effort than they currently do. And thats a good direction for the game in my honest opinion.

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Same way you claim that someone with LFR gear are lesser skilled players? Works both ways Jaylock, Except I actually don't judge people on what gear they are wearing, but thanks for making my point

In what way is that the "same" to claim someone with LFR gear is lesser skilled? First, i never said that simply because they are wearing LFR gear they are lesser skilled. I said that raid leaders putting together pick up groups have only gear to go off of to determine skill when inviting to their raid group. I'm sure there are people who have alts who are only in LFR gear who have those bosses on farm in heroic mode. The point is, for a raid leader the only way of judging a person and knowing that the run will be successful is by their gear. Unless of course they have other people vouching for them, or the raid leader knows that player, then exceptions will and have been made.

Glitch, have you ever lead a raid group? I am being honest and trying to really reason with you. Have you? And if you have, what guarantees of success do you have other than judging them by the type of gear they are wearing? If you wanted to have a reasonable chance at killing lets say flex wing 2 of SoO, would you invite someone wearing a hodge podge of LFR gear and timeless gear, or would you invite someone who had some flex pieces, maybe 1 or 2 LFR pieces, and some higher end crafted gear?

I think that choice is simple.

[Deviant]

I'm almost all but done with wow, and everything else included with it. There's definitely some good peeps who still play, but the entitled players are just taking over. There are enough mmo's out now to easily make a change. Not being stuck with the foolish ideology that wow is somehow the best, and only mmo. Even with the changes implemented in WoD. I have a sense a lot of entitled players will do their best to ruin it. It's gotten out of hand and at this point Blizzard is patching up an old dead horse. The only way to create a good mmo community is to start out fresh, and not allow the lowest common denominator to control the game. It was a relationship with developer and player in vanilla/bc, and then it became a service, and that's when the game started to deteriorate. WoD is an attempt to get it back, but I have my doubts. The games been infected, and I'm afraid it's at the point of no return. Too many people defending flawed ideologies about an mmo have all but forced out a massive amount of players, and I'm sure there are going to be the usual comments of goodbye. Don't let the door hit you, ect. Those people don't realize that eventually they will have nobody to play with. Because it's an mmo, not a free loot shopping spree, or a class rights game akin to woman's rights. It's an mmo, and right now I can't even recognize it as being one.

The lowest common denominator don't control the game at all because most of the rewards are for the high-end players dude. Wow has had 30 million something players with most not even making it to max level. You aren't the center of the universe and if you don't enjoy a game quit. You don't need to get on a soap box.