Colossus Smash as a talent.

[CollisionTD]

First: stop flaming, please. There's no need.

Second: go check out Cynwise's work on populations and you'll see where the data is coming from.

If you're not familiar with the work, that is a failing on your part and not mine. Your aggression impresses nobody.

As hinted above, check out Cynwise's work on the topic. I don't think Colossus Smash is fine as it is, and telling people to just go play a different spec or class isn't solving anything; it's just not a meaningful contribution to the topic.

There are already 2 solutions in the works for the perceived difficulty in colossus smash, ignite weapon and the glyph of colossus smash, and they're likely the best way to go about it.

:edit: Removed flaming, aka, deleted the entire post. Will re-post argument in better taste sometime later.

[Baracuda]

Didn't read. Played warrior since TBC, hate Colossus Smash. Oh did you parry/dodge my attack during CDs? I'll just do crap dmg then.

Pretty sure I don't particularly like the other proposed talents but I like the idea. The shout talent tier would be a good candidate for a rework anyways.

Or put shout tier as first tier and remove charge tier. Make charge 12 sec baseline and then make a glyph to make it stun + 8 seconds more CD.

[Windowflip]

Reading this Thread has made my weekend.

[cFortyfive]

Or put shout tier as first tier and remove charge tier. Make charge 12 sec baseline and then make a glyph to make it stun + 8 seconds more CD.

Maybe. Personally though I'd probably still go with the shout tier rework. They seem to like that kind of "mobility" flavor tier. I really like disrupting shout but I am not sure how much sense it makes to keep it going forward, piercing how could just be baseline with a cooldown maybe and I don't care at all for staggering.

[Archimtiros]

Yeah you don't seem to understand the implications. You aren't just suggesting making a as talent, you are suggesting making three talents that now all need to be balanced around. Not only that it would be one of the single strongest talent tiers wow has ever seen.

Many people already brought up crit but really this has already been addressed in WoD so it isn't as great an issue as you believe.
It is understandable that not everyone will like CS but that is the nature of things. There is nothing inherently wrong with CS and thus no reason to change it.
That said, doesn't mean it can't be changed, but it is a whole lot more design than you imply.

But further, just as there are people who don't like the change now, make a change later and just as many people if not more won't like it. Understand that is the nature of things and you can't please everyone.

So then you really have two choices:
1) learn to use it
2) play something else until it changes again, even if it does change it won't be soon.

[Juni]

*Snip*

Collision for President. I've said I love you before, right? <3

That response should be sticked so when anyone says something stupid it can just be copy pasted 10 times to make sure they understand.

[Uoyredrum]

I'd rather they just removed colossus smash altogether. I hate having both dps specs revolve all of their damage around a single button.

[Archimtiros]

I'd rather they just removed colossus smash altogether. I hate having both dps specs revolve all of their damage around a single button.

Because no other class does that. I would see it being removed from one, honestly Arms as it needs a significant rework anyways.

[thabris]

I understand that raiding takes time, but if you can't even manage to kill garrosh on flex mode you're likely trash at the game and have likely never cared about optimizing your rotation in the first place, especially since cross-realm raiding has been around all expansion.

This brings me to the next reasonable conclusion from your post, that you just want to dumb down the spec so that even you can play it.

No, you've fixed Fury in such a way that it is insanely easy to play, which will bring back all the people who went to go play hunter because of how easy it is.

Anyone with less clout on the forums would've gotten infractions for these.

[Knough]

So then you really have two choices:
1) learn to use it
2) play something else until it changes again, even if it does change it won't be soon.

It's not massively complicated to learn, but it is a pain in the arse? I've only got a middling-competency warrior, who is fury because two hands means two weapon-slots, and find the "hold.. hold.. CS and spam attacks.. hold.. hold" rotation incredibly annoying compared to the fluency of other classes, and while killing things in general outside instances, you get reduced damage for most of the time compared to others, dependent entirely on CS.

Some people like Fury, but not CS smash, and I'd fully support making it a talent; those who like it, can pick it, those who don't.. won't?

[Aceveda]

Yes, anything to bring rend back.. and I personally don't like CSmash

[Pua]

Yes, representation is a compelling argument if you use it properly. Fury certainly performs better than Arms at single target damage. Though cleave and any type of sustained AOE situation, Arms comes out well ahead.

I disagree.

It's a fact that heroic raiders will naturally gravitate toward stronger specs, and this isn't new behaviour - it's been that way for as long as I've been playing. This will skew representation in favour of those specs at the higher end, similar to how it works in PvP (hence Arms has done well throughout 5.4 because of its comparative strength in PvP).

The problem isn't the CS ability, it's crit scaling for the most part.

Yes, I do agree. But the fact the developers are looking at Colossus Smash as a talent, as well as providing a glyph to change the six-second window is pretty telling that they also consider it a problem.

That's for the entire warrior class, first of all. To infer that that has something to do with Colossus Smash with Fury Warriors is disingenuous.

I'm not arguing that Colossus Smash is the sole reason, nor have I done so at any point in the thread. In fact, you've noticed my commentary about the reliance on critical strike; but at lower skill levels it's relatively clear that players aren't playing Fury so something is wrong and I'd imagine that's prior to them reading guides or external websites.

You're talking about this information?

Correct. I've been following it for the majority of the expansion, as has Matt Rossi who's been talking about it here, here and here.

It's a discussion that's been going on a long time, and one that I followed on Twitter for quite a long time... The commentary goes back to August last year, as representation throughout Mists was discussed originally.

Drawing a conclusion that people have dropped fury due to colossus smash out of that data is laughable.

It's a good thing that wasn't my conclusion then, eh? It's a good thing you're here to put words in my mouth!

Look familiar? This is your raiding experience, where your only heroic kills are from killing Jin'rokh twice. I understand that raiding takes time, but if you can't even manage to kill garrosh on flex mode you're likely trash at the game and have likely never cared about optimizing your rotation in the first place, especially since cross-realm raiding has been around all expansion.

Ah, the real reason you're posting with such hostility. Another elitist screed. It's not as if we've not seen THIS before, when someone's ability to play is judged during an expansion where they've barely bothered to play much at all, and certainly not other than the odd half hour every few nights since 5.4. But that's cool. You're a better player than I am thanks to your commitment to a video game, and you're trying to belittle me for it on an Internet forum.

That is what's laughable, not my lack of heroic kills.

You're a delight.

This brings me to the next reasonable conclusion from your post, that you just want to dumb down the spec so that even you can play it. While we're at it, let's shorten marathons to half a mile, move the 3-point line in basketball to 5 feet, and double the width of a soccer goal.

And another insult, just to make yourself feel even bigger. Have you any idea how sad your behaviour really is?

"OMG HE NO HEROIC RAID HE NO CAN SUGGEZT ANYTHING".

Armory-policing, unprovoked hostility and throwing in personal slights before getting to any kind of a point.

What a tragic, lonely creature.

Woooooooooooooo, let's spam 3 keys on cooldown! My god, how dynamic !

Check class representation during WotLK, if possible. Though I couldn't be sure, I'd imagine it was higher at more gear levels than it currently is, and there was a good population on the three realms I played on of Fury warriors from what I recall. Clearly, that's anecdotal.

I'm going to be pleasant to you, and pick out the rest of your post that has some actual value. Despite your childish gibberish, it's pretty clear you know what you're talking about so I shan't stoop to your mode of anti-social behaviour.

Ok, so what you're saying is that you want Fury to do maximum cleave/single target dps within the same rotation? Because that's what it would take to replace the missing damage.

Not necessarily. Whirlwind was purely a suggestion, based on how it worked in WotLK and how comparatively popular the spec appeared to be at that time; numbers could have easily been inflated by the newly-integrated Titan's Grip, of course. Arguably, the fact that Raging Blow and Wild Strike have both been put into the rotation since then, with the loss of Whirlwind and Slam (which could be reintegrated), no such substitute would need to be found. Heck, we've seen this expansion use Whirlwind as part of the single target rotation for Titan's Grip using the appropriate glyph.

It's not as bizarre as you're claiming.

Gladiator still has revenge, and it will still be used every 9 seconds.

Hence why I said "to an extent". Did you miss that in your desire to gnash your teeth and scream at a stranger on a web forum? Lolz.

Avoidance geared tanks, at the moment, are getting a lot more procs out of Revenge than a gladiator would (every nine seconds). Clearly, they'll still be using it but (as for Fury) we could just as easily argue that no substitution is needed.

No, you've fixed Fury in such a way that it is insanely easy to play, which will bring back all the people who went to go play hunter because of how easy it is.

Correct.

I've made Fury easier and less punitive for those with less experience or interest in committing themselves as you do to a video game. Good for you, though! More importantly, I've retained the exact gameplay you seem so desperate to keep. Just dry your eyes, wipe your nose and read the post properly, sweetie.

You've clearly never raided seriously. Also, piercing howl baseline would have huge pvp implications.

Probably not. They could arguably take the snare out of Mortal Strike and leave Piercing Howl as the baseline snare. That'd have the downside of needing a GCD to apply (assuming they wanted to keep it there, which I imagine they would), but could be balanced by its AoE impact.

Lol, what? That doesn't make sense at all. Bloodbath is superior to ignite weapon when considering how much dps it brings to the table. Also, Avatar is the weakest talent on that tier, not bloodbath. (Not that you would know, since you're using Avatar in your current spec.)

Lol, it makes perfect sense. I'm speaking philosophically about what Ignite Weapon does, not how it's tuned. I even mentioned that several times in my opening post to make it clear. Nobody else seems to have jumped on this particular bandwagon, so either:

a) You've missed it.
b) Everyone else is a scrub.

I'm comfortable letting you choose which it is. Go nuts.

And Bloodbath is better than Avatar? Wow, I could never have figured out that 24 seconds of 20% damage every three minutes was inferior to 30% damage over 12 seconds every three minutes. Maybe I don't give a fuck, and like to clean up my bars by macroing three things together. But hey, how dare I do something that's more convenient. Clearly, I need flagellated for not doing what a simulator tells me I should be doing in a video game, hoho.

Ok, you're REALLY going to need statistics to back up this information. You can't just say "Well, cynwise blah blah blah" because I know there hasn't been a survey done for this. I could just as easily say that most warriors prefer peanut butter over nutella, or that 3 in 5 dentists recommend enemas twice a month.

A survey done for what?

If players would like to see Rend return?

Would you like me to make one?

Say please.

A passive damage increase that doesn't change how you play. It even stacks twice so that you can't accidentally waste a stack, and the buff lasts longer than any proc in the game !

And it's easy to retune if you want to reward players who are taking a more active part in their rotation!

The leet warriors who make life harder for themselves can masturbate over their monitors and ejaculate on the pixels of noobs as they do more deeps than them!

TL;DR: No. There's already 2 solutions in the works for the perceived difficulty in colossus smash, ignite weapon and the glyph of colossus smash, and they're vastly superior to what garbage you have posted. Even making colossus smash a buff on the player rather than a debuff on the target is a better idea than this.

I enjoyed that post, honestly.

Shop smart. Shop S Mart.

Didn't read. Played warrior since TBC, hate Colossus Smash. Oh did you parry/dodge my attack during CDs? I'll just do crap dmg then.

You can't say that, dude.

It's against the rules to disagree with someone who commits the majority of their free time to video games, and thinks ostracizing others who have more to do with their time is impressive.

FWIW, I agree with you. It's another issue with Colossus Smash that I didn't mention, and another awkward facet to its implementation.

Or put shout tier as first tier and remove charge tier. Make charge 12 sec baseline and then make a glyph to make it stun + 8 seconds more CD.

I wouldn't mind that actually, but they've said (Celestalon, I think) that they're going to be keeping the Charge tier.

Reading this Thread has made my weekend.

You must live a very sad existence.

There is nothing inherently wrong with CS and thus no reason to change it.

I disagree, for reasons already posted. I get that many people like the way Colossus Smash currently works, but we know a lot of people strongly dislike it - even Hazzikostas' Twitter feed this past week has proven this.

Collision for President. I've said I love you before, right? <3

That response should be sticked so when anyone says something stupid it can just be copy pasted 10 times to make sure they understand.

You're very easily impressed.

Get a girlfriend.

Anyone with less clout on the forums would've gotten infractions for these.

I don't think behaving like a spoiled child is against the forum rules, though.

But you must admit - his hateful, angry post was a good laugh. Any attempt to project oneself as an authority on the Internet will invariably land in the "waving arms around and screaming" camp if care isn't taken. It's as if someone just told him to go to bed.

It's scary how poorly developed some people are when it comes to basic courtesy and/or social skills.

I blame the parents.

The ones, I'm not saying who, some people, I'm not saying who, probably still live with... But I'm not saying who.

Some people like Fury, but not CS smash, and I'd fully support making it a talent; those who like it, can pick it, those who don't.. won't?

Personally, I love Titan's Grip; I think it's a spec-defining talent that really fits into what I believe is the warrior archetype.

[Vulgrym]

What do you guys think?

I think CS is one of the few things that adds at least a bit of subtlety to what is already a painfully straightforward "rotation" for Fury.

If you're going to nuke it, you had better come to the table with something A LOT meatier than what you propose to add back some depth and/or complexity to the spec.

[Juni]

It's not massively complicated to learn, but it is a pain in the arse? I've only got a middling-competency warrior, who is fury because two hands means two weapon-slots, and find the "hold.. hold.. CS and spam attacks.. hold.. hold" rotation incredibly annoying compared to the fluency of other classes, and while killing things in general outside instances, you get reduced damage for most of the time compared to others, dependent entirely on CS.

So you're basically saying that you do not know how the spec actually plays when ure even semi-decently geared (545+).

Beyond that point you should have enough crit (if u gem/reforge correctly) to get rb procs from ALMOST every bt, making the rotation extremely fluent.

This has been said over and over again on these forums, yet people seem to not understand the fact that fury is extremely smooth at higher gear levels, and is in a perfectly fine place.

Wanting CS to become a talent/calling for the death of CS when you (not you specifically, Knough) have NO idea how to play the spec or how it works (it's supposed to be a pain at lower ilvls and grow in strength/become more fluent as u gear, that's the natural course when crit is alfa omega and has the effect it does on the rotation - Blizz' design) is in my eyes completely silly. I wouldn't mind if they made it into a talent, but I also know that if they did, as Archimtiros said, they would have made a completely broken op talent tier and it would be a huuuge pain in the ass to balance properly. You'd basically make 3 different rotations for 2 specs (excluding prot), basically 6 rotations, and then have all 3 different rotations for both specs be within a few percent dmg of each other for there to be a point to the tier at all. Which is time better spent improving the early xpack issues or make arms interesting.

[Pwellzor]

Yes, anything to bring rend back.. and I personally don't like CSmash

I don't see how rend was a wildly exciting button.

[Warriorsarri]

So you want to give people the illusion of choice by removing the core of both Arms and Furys mechanics, and then add it back as a talent? All this would do is that, A: All the people who chose to not run with CS is "playing the class in the wrong way", and are unable to go any higher 'cause they really don't enjoy the way CS works, or B: They will balance things in such a way that the opposite is true, all the people who currently love the way CS works are forced into the optimal way if they want to stay competitive.

Blizzard has two things in WoD that will address Colossus Smash. First off we have the CS glyph, which increases its duration to 20seconds. This means that you no longer are locked in into the "Conserve>Burst>Conserve" cycle that Fury currently has. It has some downsides, such as lowering your damage if your target dies early, but overall it's a nice concept that I think a lot of new or more casual Fury warriors may opt into because its the easier option.
The second thing they have in store is Ignite Weapon. If you have IW you no longer have to worry about going in to a CS with a high amount of rage, as your Heroic Strike will hit just as hard inside a CS as it will outside. All you need to do with your rage is to make sure that you have enough rage to use Heroic strike every 9 seconds, and no to burn too much on WS.

Secondly, There is zero use of speaking of Arms as of yet, as we still have no clue what they want to do with it. My personal opinion is that the "Arms Concept" is in a good place at the moment, but the numbers are off. They would need to re-tune Slam and OP, so that Slam is better to use inside of CS, and OP outside. This could easily be done by just boosting Slams bonus damage inside CS from 10% to something higher. No matter what they do they are (hopefully) very unlikely to change how CS works for Arms, due to the way it's bound to our mastery, and how it works in PvP.

PS: Before you talk smack about Collision, you may want to know who he is...

[Pua]

I think CS is one of the few things that adds at least a bit of subtlety to what is already a painfully straightforward "rotation" for Fury.

If you're going to nuke it, you had better come to the table with something A LOT meatier than what you propose to add back some depth and/or complexity to the spec.

I get that, bud, honestly I do. I'm acutely aware of a lot of players that really like the Colossus Smash window and that's why I've determined to preserve it - I don't think "nuk[ing] it" is going to win anybody over, and it's not what I'm suggesting.

This has been said over and over again on these forums, yet people seem to not understand the fact that fury is extremely smooth at higher gear levels, and is in a perfectly fine place.

It's not a question of misunderstanding it, Juni. It's a question of it being a problem when a spec flat-out doesn't function in lower levels or in crap gear.

Not everybody will make it to 545, or even close to that necessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the vast majority of players in the game won't get anywhere near it. I think your point about a spec playing differently as you gear up is compelling, actually, just as I found it compelling when healers were supposed to "grow" from using Heal to using Greater Heal - we're effectively talking about the same thing.

But I think that it's a fundamental design flaw when levelling warriors, or those just starting out, can't press buttons because they're not getting Raging Blow to proc. I think it makes the rotation feel slow, pedestrian and unenjoyable.

[Juni]

Ah, the real reason you're posting with such hostility. Another elitist screed. It's not as if we've not seen THIS before, when someone's ability to play is judged during an expansion where they've barely bothered to play much at all, and certainly not other than the odd half hour every few nights since 5.4. But that's cool. You're a better player than I am thanks to your commitment to a video game, and you're trying to belittle me for it on an Internet forum.


What a tragic, lonely creature.

I'm going to be pleasant to you, and pick out the rest of your post that has some actual value. Despite your childish gibberish, it's pretty clear you know what you're talking about so I shan't stoop to your mode of anti-social behaviour.

Hence why I said "to an extent". Did you miss that in your desire to gnash your teeth and scream at a stranger on a web forum? Lolz.

I've made Fury easier and less punitive for those with less experience or interest in committing themselves as you do to a video game. Good for you, though! More importantly, I've retained the exact gameplay you seem so desperate to keep. Just dry your eyes, wipe your nose and read the post properly, sweetie.

And Bloodbath is better than Avatar? Wow, I could never have figured out that 24 seconds of 20% damage every three minutes was inferior to 30% damage over 12 seconds every three minutes. Maybe I don't give a fuck, and like to clean up my bars by macroing three things together. But hey, how dare I do something that's more convenient. Clearly, I need flagellated for not doing what a simulator tells me I should be doing in a video game, hoho.

The leet warriors who make life harder for themselves can masturbate over their monitors and ejaculate on the pixels of noobs as they do more deeps than them!

It's against the rules to disagree with someone who commits the majority of their free time to video games, and thinks ostracizing others who have more to do with their time is impressive.

You must live a very sad existence.

You're very easily impressed.

Get a girlfriend.

I don't think behaving like a spoiled child is against the forum rules, though.

But you must admit - his hateful, angry post was a good laugh. Any attempt to project oneself as an authority on the Internet will invariably land in the "waving arms around and screaming" camp if care isn't taken. It's as if someone just told him to go to bed.

It's scary how poorly developed some people are when it comes to basic courtesy and/or social skills.

I blame the parents.

The ones, I'm not saying who, some people, I'm not saying who, probably still live with... But I'm not saying who.

Oh the irony....

But good thing you admit that you want what's convenient for you, and not what makes good gameplay or class/spec design, and that you have absolutely zero interest in the game itself nor any clue of how the class works.

And I wouldn't say that you, from that post of yours, behave like the "socially intelligent person with loads of interesting spare time activities and friends" like you try to be. The game is for everyone, that goes for scrubs and elitist assholes alike. And you saying the shit you did above shows that you're just another douche bag worthy of an ignore.

[Archimtiros]

Not even going to bother quoting. You realize the more quote block breakups you write the less people read. Sounds shitty but I don't think you know half of what you are talking about to begin with I am certinately not inclined to read 3 pages of it.

Your idea of stupid easy rotation is not in line with what the designers want. They want you to make decisions. They want your choices to matter, positive or negative.

And Matt Rossi, while a talented writer is the worst, period, warrior, period, to give advice ever. Period.
His blogs are laughable and he hasn't the slightest clue how to play Fury. He tells people to only get 2-3 GCD inside CS, is it any wonder people do bad damage and blame the CS rotation. That is the first of many laughable things he writes and I am extremely happy wowinsider cancelled their class articles because he was giving terrible advice.
I don't care how many fans he has that comment on his posts, because they are heavily misinformed and should the misinformed be adding their opinion?

Be objective. "You don't like it" doesn't mean it has a serious problem. It has a few minor problems. Parries are being largely fixed. Crit reliance is being fixed. What is left? Feeling like you do no damage outside of CS is mitigated by talents and glyphs. It literally is just a button that makes you do more damage. Every class has one.

While coolisions post was aggressive, it was apt. You may be qualified to say you don't like CS but certinately are not qualified to judge what is/not competitive design decisions. It is not nearly as easy as "remove this tier, fill in some talents".

You tell us to go get a life, get a girlfriend, whatever. We spend a hell of a lot of our free time teaching people like you how to play and helping the new or uninformed and realizing the new information, so however insulting you think one of our posts is when we claim you are misinformed, you are much more insulting when you belittle us and our work.

That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your opinion of course, but if you really think your be better off with Rossi...

[Pua]

Secondly, There is zero use of speaking of Arms as of yet, as we still have no clue what they want to do with it. My personal opinion is that the "Arms Concept" is in a good place at the moment, but the numbers are off. They would need to re-tune Slam and OP, so that Slam is better to use inside of CS, and OP outside. This could easily be done by just boosting Slams bonus damage inside CS from 10% to something higher. No matter what they do they are (hopefully) very unlikely to change how CS works for Arms, due to the way it's bound to our mastery, and how it works in PvP.

I think Arms certainly needs some help, but even it has awkward implementation for Colossus Smash. Slam does more damage within the window (as we know), which would logically imply that you should save rage for when it's up... But you can't really predict when Sudden Death is going to proc which can make the proc feel like a punishment when you're low on rage and stuck with Overpower.

PS: Before you talk smack about Collision, you may want to know who he is...

I know exactly who he is. I know how good a player he is, I know what he does for the warrior community, and I know how talented a theorycrafter he is.

But if you think I'm going to be spoken to like he chose to speak to me, and just take it, it's best he knows who I am. Had someone spoken to me like that in real life, I'd have taken their head from their shoulders - it's just not how mature adults converse.

It was a hostile, personal, and utterly unprovoked, response; suffice it to say, it was also entirely needless.

Not even going to bother quoting. You realize the more quote block breakups you write the less people read. Sounds shitty but I don't think you know half of what you are talking about to begin with I am certinately not inclined to read 3 pages of it...

Fair enough, I accept that there are some people I owe an apology to. I'll get to why (and who) that is.

But first, I do want to comment on what you've written. Yours is an opinion I value, as you'll notice on other posts of yours where I've commented, and I'd hate you to think otherwise. I accept your stance on why the designers want decisions, but they have to accept that players are migrating away from the class and beginners need a slightly easier road of it rather than simply saying "L2P, scrub" which is how a lot of people behave. Take a look at Collision's response to me. And I'm also not suggesting that Matt Rossi is a good player, I'm merely suggesting that he was a part of the discussion with Cynwise when a lot of his work was being done and his commentary on it is accurate. Because I didn't write any of that myself at the time, I'm relying on those who were.

I've tried to be objective. I've listed several fundamental issues with Colossus Smash rather than merely why I dislike it, thoughts that are echoed by a lot of warriors I've spoken to here, on the official forums, around the blogosphere and in game. Many people love warriors for things such as Titan's Grip (I do) and have been playing their toon for a long time, so simply "moving on to something else" just isn't as simple as some seem. There are players who have deep connections to their characters and who aren't as inclined as heroic raiders to simply jump ship when a spec doesn't work for them.

I appreciate that you, Collision, and a great many others spend a lot of time helping players to improve. At no stage have I suggested otherwise, or that your efforts are somehow universally unappreciated. But Collision's post to me was not apt. It was completely uncalled for, and there was a thousand ways he or she could have made their point without going down the path of elitist ostracism. If you feel I've belitted your attitude or work, then I unequivocally apologise. It wasn't then, nor will ever be, my intent.

The fact is, I bite back. I see no reason why I shouldn't.

If you feel you've been a part of that, I'm sorry.