Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill

[Cybran]

German's lendings has made the impact of those poor economic decisions less hurtful.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/up...isis.html?_r=0

Which brings us back to the euro zone crisis. People (especially Germans) often view the crisis, which first became severe four years ago this spring, through this frame: Profligate, free-spending nations along Europe’s southern coast (we’re looking at you, Greece, Italy and Spain) borrowed more money than they could possibly repay; then, when the bill came due, they nearly caused the collapse of the common euro currency before being bailed out by their more responsible Northern European neighbors.

The run-up in debt in Spain and Greece and Italy was the flip side of Germany’s success in containing workers’ wages and improving exports. Germany sold more stuff to Southern Europe than it bought. It took the profits and, in effect, lent the money back to those same Southern European countries. In Greece and Italy, it showed up as government borrowing, and in Spain as a housing bubble fueled by bank loans.

It all fell apart once the indebtedness of the Southern European countries became too much to bear. Because all these countries use the same currency, the euro, none could relieve the pressure by devaluing their currency as they might have with their own lira, drachma or peseta.

Europe has been forced to fix its internal imbalances some other way. The approach so far has largely been one of forcing steep cuts in wages and benefits on the Southern European countries, so that they can regain competitiveness against Germany.

How come you manage to read the same thing as everyone else and come to a wrong conclusion? The EURO is the root cause of the crisis. The way it works is turning the South into a periphery that has to rely on the North for it's survival and economic decissions.

The Euro is broken and Italy is right to consider ditching it.

[Rukentuts]

Well, clearly Americans love nepotism and hate government control; and we prefer it the other way around.

Yes we're well aware that Russia likes repeating its mistakes.

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How come you manage to read the same thing as everyone else and come to a wrong conclusion?

This is begging for a sig.

The Euro is broken and Italy is right to consider ditching it.

If they want to rot due to their own destructive economic practices, let them.

[Cyberowl]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/up...isis.html?_r=0


How come you manage to read the same thing as everyone else and come to a wrong conclusion? The EURO is the root cause of the crisis. The way it works is turning the South into a periphery that has to rely on the North for it's survival and economic decissions.

The Euro is broken and Italy is right to consider ditching it.

The Euro is not the root of the problem, shitty economy is. The Euro could have been a part-solution, but since it is an international currency and not a national currency, they can't decide to blow up the Euro on their own.

[Deleted]

The EURO is the root cause of the crisis. The way it works is turning the South into a periphery that has to rely on the North for it's survival and economic decissions.

There are many reasons why the eurocrisis happened, both due to poor handling of southern European economies but also because of the 2008 crisis. Has the handling of the euro problematized the situation? Yes. But the currency itself is not the root of the problem, that's just anti-globalization drivel.

[Cybran]

The Euro is not the root of the problem, shitty economy is. The Euro could have been a part-solution, but since it is an international currency and not a national currency, they can't decide to blow up the Euro on their own.

They are bound by the rules of the ECB that work for Germany, but don't work for anyone else. Without the Euro they would have been able to adjust much faster and lose far less jobs and GDP.

[Cynep]

Ukraine was trying to be neutral with pro-Russia leanings for 23 years and when choice came, well we know what happened.Look at statistics of Poland and Ukraine in 1991 - Poland chose EU/NATO and where it is now? Example of massive reforms,strong growth and rather good future in all sections of economy and politics.
Ukraine,Im sorry to say this but at the moment its a failed state.I dont think it has much future,unless you want to become something like Belarus,in integration with Russia.

Hold your tongue, your country was in worse situation in 1940. At least we have a good chance to win the war you lost, thanks to our size. I suggest you wait 2 months after elections before making judgements.

[Cyberowl]

They are bound by the rules of the ECB that work for Germany, but don't work for anyone else. Without the Euro they would have been able to adjust much faster and lose far less jobs and GDP.

So basically: "Hey central Europe.. I know this may sound bad, but we want to dumb your currency and your savings. It's not your fault, it's ours, but we are sorry! Deal?"

Do you really wonder why that didn't happen?

If the solution to economical crisis in Southern Europe is screwing their own currency, they shouldn't have swapped their national currency with the Euro.

[Cybran]

So basically: "Hey central Europe.. I know this may sound bad, but we want to dumb your currency and your savings. It's not your fault, it's ours, but we are sorry! Deal?"

Do you really wonder why that didn't happen?

Why not. Germany was just as much to blame for the bubble as the South. When they lend money to Spain, Italy and Greece they know of the risks, but when it came to fixing the situation Germany used it's position as the largest economy in the ECB to put all the blame and costs on the South instead of paying it's share.

The crisis showed who actually runs the show.

[vetinari]

So basically: "Hey central Europe.. I know this may sound bad, but we want to dumb your currency and your savings. It's not your fault, it's ours, but we are sorry! Deal?"

Do you really wonder why that didn't happen?

If the solution to economical crisis in Southern Europe is screwing their own currency, they shouldn't have swapped their national currency with the Euro.

Correct, they shouldn't have swapped their national currency with the Euro, and they should rectify that mistake, by returning to their own currency.

[Cynep]

Yeah you're right, but there are 3 problems:
1) Russia is too small have a chance in this conflict.
2) Russia invaded a country that has been a "brotherly nation" before, no one likes traitors.
3) Russia promised to protect Ukraine when Ukraine gave up our nuclear weaponry (3rd largest in the world), but instead attacked us.

It's funny how Ukrainian propaganda works... All three are false.
1) US-Russia conflict would end with destruction of both sides - nuclear deterrence is based on a system where each country can destroy each other many times over.
2) Our relations never were that "brotherly", it was always Ukrainians wanting to have various preferences, and their new leadership changing perfectly good long-term contracts for immediate gain. They could have 50$ gas until 2015, but they chose European price to get transit fee instead.
3) We did protect Crimea. Your own government fault such protection allowed them to secede, they didn't even try to talk them into remaining in Ukraine or making any concessions.

Heh, let's see.
0) We in Donetsk don't have Ukrainian propaganda, your side controls TV and broadcasts Russian channels, we have only Russian propaganda now.
1) Nuclear war won't happen, USA-Russia conflict is happening already. You will lose this second mini Cold War too. My point is true.
2) Gas price is irrelevant, don't replace topics. You, Russians, called Ukrainians brothers and now you attack us. My point is true.
3) "The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine", verbatim from Budapest Memorandum. You broke your promise. My point is true.

[Cyberowl]

Why not. Germany was just as much to blame for the bubble as the South. When they lend money to Spain, Italy and Greece they know of the risks, but when it came to fixing the situation Germany used it's position as the largest economy in the ECB to put all the blame and costs on the South instead of paying it's share.

The crisis showed who actually runs the show.

How high is the dosis of populist propaganda?

Correct, they shouldn't have swapped their national currency with the Euro, and they should rectify that mistake, by returning to their own currency.

The milk is already spilled.

[Shalcker]

Heh, let's see.
0) We in Donetsk don't have Ukrainian propaganda, your side controls TV and broadcasts Russian channels, we have only Russian propaganda now.

You have internet which makes it easy to find like-minded news anywhere

1) Nuclear war won't happen, USA-Russia conflict is happening already. You will lose this second mini Cold War too. My point is true.

Oh, really?

2) Gas price is irrelevant, don't replace topics. You, Russians, called Ukrainians brothers and now you attack us. My point is true.

Except we still didn't attack anyone. And Gas price is quite relevant - that's where "unbrotherly conduct" by Ukraine is most visible. Remember all "gas wars"?

Or you think we can call you brothers and you can spit and call us katsap indefinitely? :P

3) "The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine", verbatim from Budapest Memorandum. You broke your promise. My point is true.

I know Ukrainian interpretation, but we did not use any weapons against Ukraine (not to mention that this document is about Nuclear weapons specifically, not just any weapons - which were not even threatened to be used on Ukraine).

[Cybran]

How high is the dosis of populist propaganda?

None.

Germany used the crisis to cement it's position as the leader of Europe. They benefitted from the Euro even after the crisis when capital flight from the periphery moved to Germany lowering their borrowing costs even further. They fucked everyone else and laughed all the way to the bank.

[Cyberowl]

None.

Germany used the crisis to cement it's position as the leader of Europe. They benefitted from the Euro even after the crisis when capital flight from the periphery moved to Germany lowering their borrowing costs even further. They fucked everyone else and laughed all the way to the bank.

None? lol

You are the incarnation of populism. Present problems, fault everyone (except yourselves, of course), preach what folk wants to hear, nitpick reports/articles etc. that favor you (if there is nothing that supports you, you can still make things up!) and offer no good solution.

You are so populistic it makes my skin itch.

Germany's economy was hit by the crisis too, but we didn't fall into recession and managed to overcome the crisis and even became stronger. We got things done, which was a rarity in the EU and that's why Germany stepped up as "leader of Europe".

[Cybran]

Germany's economy was hit by the crisis too, but we didn't fall into recession and managed to overcome the crisis and even became stronger. We got things done, which was a rarity in the EU and that's why Germany stepped up as "leader of Europe".

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee.../euro-crisis-0

But we all know the rub: euro-area members' biggest trading partners are...other euro-area members. Member states can't all simultaneously raise net exports to other member states. So unless the northern core begins running big surpluses vis-a-vis the periphery, rising external demand means rising surpluses with the world outside the euro area.

As the latest data make clear, that is occuring. In the year to November of last year euro-zone exports were up 8% relative to the same period in 2011 while imports rose just 2%. The euro area's surpluses with Britain and America increased by nearly €13 billion and €14 billion, respectively, in that time, and its deficits with China and Japan dropped by €10 billion and €8 billion, respectively. But these figures, while directionally appropriate, are tiny relative to the output boost needed around the periphery. And neither is it clear that much of the gains are occuring around the periphery. Greece, Spain, and Portugal were running smaller trade deficits last year than in 2011, but not by that much—gaps shrank roughly €6 billion, €12 billion, and €5 billion, respectively. Meanwhile, Germany's surplus expanded by €19 billion.

Given this incredibly slow progress it isn't in the least surprising that peripheral countries remained mired in deep recession late last year while unemployment continued to rise. And while it is good news that Germany's export machine slowed a bit late last year, it is distressing that this slowdown led to an overall contraction in the German economy in the fourth quarter as German domestic demand failed to pick up the slack. That's very bad news; German consumers need to be gobbling up exports from the south.

It's nice that financial markets are much calmer, now, than they have been for much of the past three years. But the euro area's progress is occuring far too slowly. The periphery needs a return to growth and falling unemployment to secure the end of the crisis. The piddly surpluses now generated by the euro area as a whole simply aren't sufficient to get the job done.

Yeah. Germany got out by digging everyone else deep in the shit. They are using the EU for their own personal gains from the start.

[Cyberowl]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee.../euro-crisis-0


Yeah. Germany got out by digging everyone else deep in the shit. They are using the EU for their own personal gains from the start.

^ problem

v solution

???

My populist-o-meter is funky.

[Cybran]

solution

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/...et-rid-germany

The fundamental problem lies not in the efficiency of the German economy, although that has contributed to the divergence in economic fortunes, but in the behaviour of German politicians and central bankers.

Not only has the German Government consistently vetoed the only policies that could have brought the euro crisis under control – collective European guarantees for national debts and large-scale intervention by the European Central Bank. To make matters worse, Germany has been responsible for almost all the misguided policies implemented by the eurozone, ranging from last year’s crazy interest rate rises by the ECB to the excessive demands for austerity and bank losses that now threaten Greece with a chaotic default.

Mario Monti, the German-appointed Prime Minister of Italy, was explicit, warning that Germany would suffer a “powerful backlash” if it persisted in opposing measures that could relieve financial pressures on other euro members, such as the issue of jointly guaranteed bonds. Meanwhile, many of the country’s leading economists, former central bankers and business leaders have started writing articles advocating withdrawal from the euro on the ground that Germany’s policies are incompatible with other members’

The solution should have been to kick Germany out of the Eurozone. Too late for that now.

[Deleted]

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/...et-rid-germany

The solution should have been to kick Germany out of the Eurozone. Too late for that now.

The author of that opinion piece of yours have some pretty silly articles about how Germany is making the EU into a federal state so yeah, I wouldn't take him too seriously...

[Wilian]

Well, Germany pretty effectively manipulated odds to their favour, my favourite example being how they handled the Greece. First give that whole package deal, then sell military equipment worth of hundreds of millions.

Spend some money, other EU countries spend money -> bag that money via military hardware contract -> get interest of loan on top

[Kellhound]

It's quite hard to create limited response in such case, especially considering how deluded Americans are now about Russian intentions and capabilities.

Well, they were not stationed in Donbass and Lugansk - does that look any better to you?

There is a HUGE jump from peace to full nuclear exchange. The opinion of the run of the mill American is unimportant, and almost always wrong, and does not dictate how the Pentagon responds to rapidly emerging threats. I can assure you the DIA is quite up to date on Russian capabilities (and lack there of).

I was discussing Crimea and the prevalence of Russian military personnel, be it within the constraints of the treaty or not. If there are any Russian personnel in Eastern Ukraine, that is an act of war that cannot be pushed aside as part of a treaty.