DPS Balance - Are Locks too OP?

[Deleted]

That's just not true.

You cant really use PRORaiders as an argument, thats a site where people who go out of their way to cheese ranks end up.

[Deleted]

Proraider score doesn't work how you think it works.

I linked to PR instead of dps by mistake fixed it.

lmfao, it is on any fight with more than one target. Embers are the most broken resource in the game we don't need to check logs to even know that. It's common sense. 2+ targets, swim in embers and do amazing relevant single target damage with cbolt.

Again That's not true.

[Deleted]

On protectors your windwalker, fire mage, unholy, and even your frost mage should be riding his nuts on that fight.

No they should not. You mentioned it yourself in this thread so I don't know why you would claim such a thing. Warlock multi target is not balanced.

Expect affliction to fall behind significantly with snap shotting being taken away, destro though is barely affected by this.

Really? Did you miss the part where blizzard is fixing issues, redesigning specs and rebalancing? Warlocks won't stay exactly the same just without snapshotting. If blizzard removes snapshotting but doesn't change anything a ton of specs will be unplayable, as single target dps is balanced around it. Hint: that won't happen. You are delusional if you think the devs are that incompetent.

Having 2 specs to cover weakness isn't the problem, mages have that, multi-target (fire), single target (arcane), noob players (frost).

One would have thought that if you had a 570 mage you'd know what you were talking about...

[Durantye]

You have no idea what you are talking about if you dont think they arent going to buff the dots or the filler.

Lol blizzard has taken a stand telling people they won't be balancing classes to perform equally in all environments in WoD, thus affliction will be the warlock spec that performs badly as single target and does well on multi target. Honestly if they were to do anything otherwise with affliction it would be incredibly unfair to all the other specs that have been told 'you're good enough are multi target you're working as intended'.

[L3fty]

I thank all you guys for this info, especially the guys with hands on experience playing locks.

I'm going to feed what I've learned here back to our lock and see what he thinks.

On the issue of stats weights and scaling, then I can't really see any other classes that can stack mastery to the same level as locks
aside from DKs / arcane. Even then not to the same extent, where crit and haste can be treated as an after thought. Our destro is currently sitting on 125% mastery. I really do wonder if classes that cannot benefit directy from their mastery are automatically at a big disadvantage. Mastery was like the specialist new-age stat for high lvl, but it has poor synergy and scaling with far too many classes imo.

I hope this doesn't get to flamey, it's good to discuss class in a realistic way. Would I want them nerfed now? No, as has been stated many time already, lots of guilds would struggle on farm bosses without them in their current state.

Also, this is not crying or complaining about a class, it's just a discussion with opinions from all sides. I would not complain about a class doing double DPS without learning a bit first, but I might be concerned about its effect on other DPS morale etc. Part of the fun in raids is the flame / jokes / banter. E.g DPS epeen, but it kinda kills it when one guy is just so much higher all the time for months and months.

[Deleted]

Affliction without tricks or really good RNG isnt that special on single target fights, on multi target ofc affli is uncontested

[Durantye]

No they should not. You mentioned it yourself in this thread so I don't know why you would claim such a thing. Warlock multi target is not balanced.

Really? Did you miss the part where blizzard is fixing issues, redesigning specs and rebalancing? Warlocks won't stay exactly the same just without snapshotting. If blizzard removes snapshotting but doesn't change anything a ton of specs will be unplayable, as single target dps is balanced around it. Hint: that won't happen. You are delusional if you think the devs are that incompetent.

One would have thought that if you had a 570 mage you'd know what you were talking about...

If you would perhaps go read what I was replying to you wouldn't make yourself out to be an ass.

1: The warlock is destro which is middle of the pack for fallen protectors since shadow burn never regens embers in the fight, it is broken but not on this fight, Affliction I would expect him to practically solo dps the boss.

2: I do recall multiple times saying destro needs to be fixed, I don't see how me saying that destruction won't hardly be affected by this is means for you to point out that inevitably changes will be made. I am referring to the very basic change of no snap shotting, which destro is barely affected by which will actually mean it most likely will need more nerfs than expected.

3: Though that is exactly how it is supposed to be, fire is amazing when able to spread it's combustion, arcane has been very dominate single target, and frost has been well rounded without requiring much skill to play.

[Varlak]

Sad though how they completely raped Demonology and made it useless compared to Destro/Affli

I do agree with you on that one. My lock is just an alt (mostly a PvP alt) and well I always feel the class is messed up when demo isn't a top lock spec. I mena the class is designed to be a demon pet class so naturaly ones could think that its spec named "demonologi" would be a good one :-P

[Vargur]

Yeah i'm in agreement he probably is better, whatever that really means...but the gap is just crazy imo. Surprised there are no more threads about it, seeing as in WoD locks are remaining relatively unchanged we are told.

Thanks for the feedback.

There are thread/s in the Priest section for example. However, I don't think you're going to see the hordes of locks complaining they're OP.

[Viradiance]

Are Warlocks overpowered?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

[Deleted]

If you would perhaps go read what I was replying to you wouldn't make yourself out to be an ass.

1: The warlock is destro which is middle of the pack for fallen protectors since shadow burn never regens embers in the fight, it is broken but not on this fight, Affliction I would expect him to practically solo dps the boss.

2: I do recall multiple times saying destro needs to be fixed, I don't see how me saying that destruction won't hardly be affected by this is means for you to point out that inevitably changes will be made. I am referring to the very basic change of no snap shotting, which destro is barely affected by which will actually mean it most likely will need more nerfs than expected.

3: Though that is exactly how it is supposed to be, fire is amazing when able to spread it's combustion, arcane has been very dominate single target, and frost has been well rounded without requiring much skill to play.

I'll just ignore your insults. Ad hominem is the lowest form of communication.

1. Oh look: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spoils_of...all/14/60/max/
Seems to me like their unholy dk and frost mage shouldn't be "riding his nuts". That's a 20 to 30% dps difference if they play to their potential.

2. You are implying that blizzard will not change ANYTHING besides snapshotting and will not balance affliction (and other classes) around not having snapshotting anymore. That will not happen.

3. But it is in NO WAY as clear cut as you make it out to be.
Let's take a look at spoils, which is definitely not a single target dps fight: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spoils_of...all/14/60/max/
Then look at logs from iron juggernaut (http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...ge&spec=Arcane). Both arcane and fire are INCREDIBLY close to each other.

[Deleted]

So many people who main warlocks on this thread trying to defend their class. I mean cmon even the devs think you're OP.

[psyquest]

To go back to topic.

Warlocks are way ahead of everyone in terms of dps and usefulness in raid. In fact blizzard is well aware of that and various tweet said quite explicitely that they do know that warlocks are too high but that nerfing them would nerf guilds and thus the adjustement to their dps will wait until 6.0 most likely.

Warlocks are very sturdy thus easier to heal, they do the best single target dps and aoe and they are a range dps which is way better than melee is almost all fights.

Compare your dps to others from the same class and wait for 6.0, nothing else to do.

- - - Updated - - -

/end thread here

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/446704252052721665

Celestalon ‏@Celestalon Mar 20
@BurningVoidzone There's a huge conversation to be had about *when* to nerf. Short answer is that nerfing warlocks would also nerf *guilds*.

@BurningVoidzone Instead, we think the right call is to leave them until Warlords, then fix them there. We agree that they're too strong now

[Deleted]

So many people who main warlocks on this thread trying to defend their class. I mean cmon even the devs think you're OP.

I don't think ANYONE claimed that warlocks are not crazy good in multidot fights like protectors and nazgrim, or aoe fights like garaklas and spoils. However, it is a fact that in single target dps they aren't nearly as good as some people want to believe. And in most fights, single target dps on boss is what going to lead to a kill, not padding meters on adds which would get cleaved down 3 seconds later anyway without a warlock.

Are they still very good single target dps? Sure they are. Are they 20-30% better in single target than anyone else? No way in hell. The problem most people have in this thread is that people seem to claim that warlocks are as much better than everyone in every fight as they are in protectors, which is plain false. Some of the hardest fights in this tier, starting from Malkorok, Thok, Blackfuse, Paragons and Garrosh are all mostly single target fights. Spoils is the only one where warlocks really dominate, and it's probably the easiest fight in the last third of SoO anyway. On every other boss that I mentioned, warlocks are not far superior than other classes and others should be able to pull similar numbers on the boss.

[Deleted]

snip

Going to assume your main is a warlock since you have more post in the warlock section of the forums than any other class. Thank you for proving my point though.

[Teebone]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Only when the other Druids aren't watching.

[Deleted]

Going to assume your main is a warlock since you have more post in the warlock section of the forums than any other class. Thank you for proving my point though.

Going to assume that you have nothing worthwhile to say, since you did not even attempt to counter my argument, only did a pathetic ad hominem attack.

[Raiju]

Going to assume that you have nothing worthwhile to say, since you did not even attempt to counter my argument, only did a pathetic ad hominem attack.

Actually your point was invalid from the get-go. It's only on farm where aoe is padding. When you are progressing? Those adds need to die usually as a priority. So in terms of "getting the kill" is extremely important, especially when you can get everyone else to focus single target (some guilds use this method) where the warlock(s) aoe the adds on immerseus/garrosh. Galakras just adds to the point although I don't think anyone really bothered to split hairs on the adds, you could have people single targeting the shamans / bonecrushers while the warlock(s) solely take care of aoe other than passive cleave and similar. Trying to defend it as irrelevant when the reason you die on immerseus, galakras, nazgrim, spoils is pretty much because of the adds is why you are getting called out and ad hominem'd, maybe bring something valid first.

And you wanna know something? Even being 1% above in single target AND dominating AoE is OP. No class should be top in both, straight up. Every other class has roles where they shine and others where they fall flat on their face (generally). To then be so sturdy on top of that is just hilarious.

I've also never seen someone call spoils easier than malkorok before - but I guess that's what having warlocks in the raid does

[Deleted]

Even being 1% above in single target AND dominating AoE is OP.

Does 0.94% count?

[Deleted]

Does 0.94% count?

Arcane mages have shit mobility and weak survivalbility. They have many weaknesses. Warlocks don't.