Heartstrike - He Gone.

[Fyersing]

It seems unfair, and perhaps even unwise, to tamper with the aesthetics of any individual specialization -- irrespective of the usefulness of proposed changes, if it costs the players an ability that adds to the "feel" of their class (ex. Blood Boil, whose visual animation is thematically appropriate) it probably shouldn't be done.


It's typically just as easy, theoretically, to adjust the thematically-appropriate ability (see. Blood Boil) to better fit into the new iteration than it is to entirely replace the ability. There is also precedence, even among the DK's specializations themselves, for the single-run AoE abilities to apply one or both diseases (Howling Blast does this). Not really any reason BB cannot remain and simply do the same.

[Baracuda]

It seems unfair, and perhaps even unwise, to tamper with the aesthetics of any individual specialization -- irrespective of the usefulness of proposed changes, if it costs the players an ability that adds to the "feel" of their class (ex. Blood Boil, whose visual animation is thematically appropriate) it probably shouldn't be done.

If everything was looked at through this lens, most classes would be much more thematically sound. The visual aspects of the class are, often times, quite important to players; I don't play my Protection Warrior very often because I don't get to primarily use the abilities which, to me, are the most strikingly representative of their thematic (i.e. Cleave, Heroic Strike).

It would be just as easy, if not easier, to simply make Blood Boil apply diseases to every target it hits...

They're fusing blood boil and pestilence, pestilence simply won the name game.

[Deleted]

It seems unfair, and perhaps even unwise, to tamper with the aesthetics of any individual specialization -- irrespective of the usefulness of proposed changes, if it costs the players an ability that adds to the "feel" of their class (ex. Blood Boil, whose visual animation is thematically appropriate) it probably shouldn't be done.

You just argued against your own argument, good job.
Don't change the aesthetics of a class, so don't give them DC, which has been part of the blood dk since it's beginning, give them something new that doesn't have anything to do with blood dks. Blood dks do NOT wield blood magic, despite their name. They use UNHOLY magic, so making them use DC again is very theme appropriate.

It's typically just as easy, theoretically, to adjust the thematically-appropriate ability (see. Blood Boil) to better fit into the new iteration than it is to entirely replace the ability. There is also precedence, even among the DK's specializations themselves, for the single-run AoE abilities to apply one or both diseases (Howling Blast does this). Not really any reason BB cannot remain and simply do the same.

The change is to do exactly that, keep your aoe but make Roiling Blood baseline. Mechanically it will work just the same (mostly, the spread probably will be a bit different), they just decided that Pest was more kit-appropriate than BB, see the above argument.

[Willias]

The talents were shit pre MoP. It was basically "Spec into this because you NEEED TO." Any MoP it's different.

Hey, while there's more customization in each class now compared to how it was, you gotta admit sticking in that talent point every level at least felt pretty good. The old talent system definitely made it feel more like you were in control over how your class was progressing, even if at level cap you really just ended up in the same build everyone else used.

[Deleted]

Hey, while there's more customization in each class now compared to how it was, you gotta admit sticking in that talent point every level at least felt pretty good. The old talent system definitely made it feel more like you were in control over how your class was progressing, even if at level cap you really just ended up in the same build everyone else used.

That's exactly how I feel about the old talents too. I liked thinking about which talent would influence me how much. I liked it so much I played with the talent calculators for other classes/specs I didn't even play.
But in the end, the new talent system, while not even remotely as rewarding as the old one during leveling, definately has increased how much you can customize your character by a lot, and feels a lot more rewarding on max level.

[PickleballAce]

The old talent trees were problematic, but the new talents are shit for a different reason.

The idea was "customization" but the way they that talent tiers are tuned so inconsistently for different fight mechanics, MoP talents boil down to "Carry a stack of Tomes with you at all times and re-spec one or more talents between every fight".

[Deleted]

MoP talents boil down to "Carry a stack of Tomes with you at all times and re-spec one or more talents between every fight".

Which is exactly what the devs intended the new talents to do.
If you look back, during MoP beta the devs said clearly that they want talents to be either a personal choice (like our tiers 60 and 75) or situational (like our tier 58 or 90)

[Kraeth]

I agree to an extent. It's deffo better to be able to use different talents in different fights with a few clicks. Though I don't think our talents or rather talent tiers right now are very good at all, mostly because I'm still super mad about the loss of the original BT.

[Deleted]

I agree to an extent. It's deffo better to be able to use different talents in different fights with a few clicks. Though I don't think our talents or rather talent tiers right now are very good at all, mostly because I'm still super mad about the loss of the original BT.

BT was a incredibly boring ability. It gave you a single free death runes on a 1min cd in exchange for a neglegible amount of health. It's new incarnation is vastly superior to that.

[Kraeth]

The old BT worked almost exactly like PL does outside removing diseases. It said one rune, but under certain conditions it almost *always* gave two. It worked really, really well. Remember, it was a time where tanks had no vengeance, so DS timing was at it's finest since we had slightly higher damage compared to other tanks due to 2-handers.

Heck, the old PL worked like a shitty talented BT. New one works a bit less shitty. I very strongly disagree that the old BT was a boring ability, at least at the time.

Comparing it to the new one is like apples and oranges. RE was the only choice, and while it wasn't the best thing around it wasn't bad and BT complimented it *really* well. Compare it to PL if you're giving comparisons, and PL loses. Well, in a way.

[PickleballAce]

Which is exactly what the devs intended the new talents to do.
If you look back, during MoP beta the devs said clearly that they want talents to be either a personal choice (like our tiers 60 and 75) or situational (like our tier 58 or 90)

Well you still have right choices and wrong choices, and talents that are totally dead in the water for some specs.

[Raugnaut]

I do have to say that it seems they are taking the "Blood" out of blood spec. /sigh.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Hey, while there's more customization in each class now compared to how it was, you gotta admit sticking in that talent point every level at least felt pretty good. The old talent system definitely made it feel more like you were in control over how your class was progressing, even if at level cap you really just ended up in the same build everyone else used.

Even then, that's what the perks are for. Yeah it felt good getting a certain talent I won't lie but personally The new version is better. It's not perfect b ut it's certainly in another league of it's own pre MoP. I do theorize there should be more talents at certain levels. Like it jumps 15 levels (15-30 and such).

[Deleted]

The old BT worked almost exactly like PL does outside removing diseases. It said one rune, but under certain conditions it almost *always* gave two.

I've been playing dk since the start of wrath, and blood dk since cata, but I can't remember it ever giving 2 runes.

RE was the only choice, and while it wasn't the best thing around it wasn't bad and BT complimented it *really* well.

That was it's only use for me. To work against our runes desyncing because of RE (still didn't always work, so you had to use ERW somewhere in the middle of the fight to align them again. RE sucked for blood. However, with the upcoming SoB changes, single runes will be useful again.)

I do have to say that it seems they are taking the "Blood" out of blood spec. /sigh.

Blood never was part of the blood spec. Blood dks use unholy magic. Bloodworms were a mixture of leeches and corpse worms, both arguably unholy. Blood Boil didn't have anything to do with blood magic, it's original concept had your diseases erupt (thereby removing them, not unlike OB did), causing the blood of your enemy to boil. Blood Tap sacrificed your life to gain runes, not your blood as such.
The "Blood" in the spec name is a reference to the vampiric properties of the blood dk.

[Deleted]

There is so much wrong with most of the posts here.

Blood rotation is NOT being simplified. You will NOT ignore blood runes completely. Blood runes WILL will be WAY more valuable than now. They will be valuable enough to sometimes use death runes as blood runes on pest (on ST, that is).

None of the abilities are being removed. They are either being merged or replaced.
BB is getting replaced by Pest, which will function exactly like BB, PLUS the disease spreading. No one in his right mind should be opposed to that change.
HS is also getting replaced by Pest, Pest WILL do ST damage comparable to HS now.
RS is getting replaced by DC. It's damage WILL be buffed to be compareable to RS, only with WAY more flavor AND at range.
If you want to ignore SoB and the DC perk, NOTHING changes for you. But if you actually USE SoB and the DC perk, these changes make your rotation more interesting.

Removal of Flavor?
HS had no flavor. It was a generic cleave with no special animation or any graphic effects. The only "flavor" it has is that it existed since forever.
RS also had no flavor. It was so generic it could just as well buff the damage of your next auto attack. NO flavor to it.

Removal of Identity?
BB had flavor and class identity. But think about it, what has more flavor, BB or Pest? Also remember that this change doesn't have to please you, it has to please the majority of dks. So Pest it is.
DC has more flavor than any other rotational ability. It replacing RS is an AWESOME change flavorwise. It's also way more rooted to blood than RS. Short excourse: During WotLK, RS was a frost ability, activating on parry, that in essence was a conterstrike. Your main RP spender was DC, which, despite being a unholy ability, had its own talent in the blood tree: Sudden Doom.

Why is it a problem to have unholy abilities? I never hear anybody complaining about DnD, you even complain about the removal of ghoul yourself.
It's not a problem that Unholy has BB, so why would it be a problem giving blood pest? If anything, it's a problem that frosts has so few non-frost-abilities.
Do you want our 3 specs to be completely different classes, just like mage? No intersection between them?
After all, for the dk class identity should be more important than spec identity.

Lastly, your arguments are inconsistent:
Keep HS, since it has been part of blood since its invention in WotLK. Replace DC, which has been part of the class since WC2, and part of the blood dk since its invention in WotLK, with something completely new, but red.
This leaves the impression you are not complaining out of conviction, but simply because you like to complain.
This can also been seen in how your complaints change over time:

DKs: blood is boring, our reactive mitigation is a problem
Devs: RT now gives a shield based on AP, and RS does the same but smaller. Also DC removed because button bloat.
DKs: That makes Blood WAY to proactive, you're removing class identity. Don't take DC, it's such a great ability, take RS instead, it sucks.
Devs: OK, we'll figure out a way to let blood stay reactive while still addressing your concerns. In the meantime, DC is back and now replaces RS.
DKs: Aaah, why did you have to take RS? So uncalled for. DC doesn't belong to blood, RS was so awesome and had so much flavor.
Devs: We figured out a cool way to fix your problems while still being reactive, your rotation is way more interesting now.
DKs: Why did you have to remove HS, you're just dumbing down the class. Why couldn't you keep dks the way they were in MoP, they were perfect that way.

And you are wondering why we never get anything nice.

I totally agree with you

[Ellondra]

Not happy about this change, our rotation is already rather simple it doesn't need to be made more simple. Now our AOE rotation and single target will be basically identical. It may not have made much of a difference but I like having to put at least some thought into what buttons I am pressing. It was also nice because if you were doing single target you had to at least pay attention to procs so you could refresh diseases, not with the new talents and this change disease will literally require no effort to apply or maintain.

With the longer period for calculating blood shield (now averaged over 10 seconds) and the loss of heart strike, we are losing basically any thought behind what we are doing.

[Minetor]

I'm really not, you need to not come in here and tell everyone to calm down like you can read tone. Idk who you are, therefore, you're being rude

- - - Updated - - -



Start playing a Dk in MoP did you?

Used to be heart strike was a heavy part of the rotation. now... my blood spec, is having all the -red- abilities removed.

It's getting a green Aoe, and a Green rune eater.

For a blood spec, it isn't very flashy. How about pestilence spreads blood around, spreading disease that way. And death coil is actually a drain of sorts that steals like a ball of blood from the player, and uses that to create a red spellshield around us.

Or does a rune shield, and unholy abilities make more sense?

I still don't see the difference between plague heart and scourge strike... All three just look like a weapon swing. Why is blizzard so uncreative when it comes to melee

Because competitive players don't care about artistic direction its the same as quests lore etc to them. All they care about is it being viable in raiding and pvp.

[Deleted]

Not happy about this change, our rotation is already rather simple it doesn't need to be made more simple. Now our AOE rotation and single target will be basically identical. It may not have made much of a difference but I like having to put at least some thought into what buttons I am pressing. It was also nice because if you were doing single target you had to at least pay attention to procs so you could refresh diseases, not with the new talents and this change disease will literally require no effort to apply or maintain.

With the longer period for calculating blood shield (now averaged over 10 seconds) and the loss of heart strike, we are losing basically any thought behind what we are doing.

Our rotation is NOT being simplified. Its getting MORE complex. How do people not get this?
Our ST and AoE rotation already are the same. The only difference is that on ST you use your blood runes for HS (which a lot of dks don't even do anymore, they use BB even on ST) and on AoE for BB. Your rotation stays exactly the same.
Snapshoting was a mechanic that wasn't very intuitive, relied heavily on rng so it could screw you over pretty bad, and was disliked by a lot of players. The only reason blood dks even did it was because our rotation was so simple we had litterally nothing else to do. This is getting addressed in WoD, with the changes to SoB, DC and RT.

when do you put any thought into using HS? you use it in the rare situation where you are not RP capped, can't DS (delaying it or no free runes), and are only tanking one mob. Also, it's not getting removed. Pest REPLACES it, meaning that in every situation you use HS now you will use Pest instead.
The longer DS window does make things easier, but was neccessary because our defenses are so reactive we got screwed by certain boss mechanics numerous times. To compensate for this small simplification, we got the changes to SoB, DC and RT, which will require more thought than watching an addon telling you when to DS (provided you even time DS, most of the time you can go perfectly well with spamming it)

[Minetor]

I've been playing dk since the start of wrath, and blood dk since cata, but I can't remember it ever giving 2 runes.


That was it's only use for me. To work against our runes desyncing because of RE (still didn't always work, so you had to use ERW somewhere in the middle of the fight to align them again. RE sucked for blood. However, with the upcoming SoB changes, single runes will be useful again.)

Your an idiot Blood worms have blood in the name and drink the blood of enemies so that's a retarded thing to start with bloodboil boils the blood of enemies we used to drain blood with mark of blood.

Blood never was part of the blood spec. Blood dks use unholy magic. Bloodworms were a mixture of leeches and corpse worms, both arguably unholy. Blood Boil didn't have anything to do with blood magic, it's original concept had your diseases erupt (thereby removing them, not unlike OB did), causing the blood of your enemy to boil. Blood Tap sacrificed your life to gain runes, not your blood as such.
The "Blood" in the spec name is a reference to the vampiric properties of the blood dk.

Your an idiot Blood worms have blood in the name and drink the blood of enemies so that's a retarded thing to start with bloodboil boils the blood of enemies we used to drain blood with mark of blood. Blood tap give life....life and blood are the same really Blood has always been about blood magic. Sorry but its like em taking arcane missiles and arcane blast from arcane mages and giving em fireball and frost lance to replace them its full retard.

Infracted

[Skarssen]

Because competitive players don't care about artistic direction its the same as quests lore etc to them. All they care about is it being viable in raiding and pvp.

Competitive players, i.e. heroic raiders and rated PVPers, account for a small percentage of the total population. Blizzard knows it has many of these players hooked, and that they will play regardless. Its the others, those people that log on to quest a bit, do a 5man or random BG, maybe run an LFR every now and then, that make up the majority of the player base and are much more likely to unsubscribe and leave the game if they aren't having fun. And these people aren't on forums like this, and will likely never let Blizzard know how they feel, other than by stopping their subscription payments.