Sucks to be Shaman? Warlords of Draenor = NO HIGHLIGHTS.

[Deleted]

Again, its a problem because no other class faces such restrictions. Druids for example don't lose Force of Nature or Ursol's Vortex because they casted Stampeding Roar.

They aren't problems. They're decisions. Design restrictions.

[Teriz]

Isn't the point of Shaman to DPS and Heal? Why do we need movement speed?

Maybe because there are uses for it? Like escaping roots/slows for Feral, and getting away from bad as a Shaman? And it works exactly as it's supposed to for both?

Ferals don't need to shapeshift to do that. They have Stampeding Roar. Thus they can increase speed, break roots/snares without ever shifting out of cat form.

It doesn't, at all. It means they want Feral to be faster. If you think it shouldn't be, then complain about that. Shaman don't need to be faster, so they don't get a movement tier.

I'm fine with Ferals being quick and cat-like.

They don't need compensation. They have spiritwalker's grace, which effectively means they can still cast on the move while everyone else can't.

Mages can with Icy Floes. Warlocks can with KJC. I wouldn't be surprised if Priests and Druids also get something that allows cast while moving.

[Teriz]

It's not a problem, it's a decision. You can deal more damage or you can help your raid. I like having that decision, and I don't like the idea of it being taken from me.

If you don't want that restriction, then you're free to play other classes. That's kind of the point of the other classes not having them.

Druids also make a decision casting Stampeding Roar or Force of Nature. The difference is that Force of Nature doesn't end because you began Stampeding Roar.

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Icy Floes allows only one spell, KJC is being changed again:

coincidentally to a cooldown just like Spiritwalker's Grace, (Who'dathunk?) the other two get nothing.

Icy Floes has three charges.

I do believe your original point was that the other classes got nothing? You were wrong.

As for the rest, I'm willing to bet that Priests and Druids will get a CD to compensate. They always do.

[Teriz]

And my Fire Elemental doesn't end because I use Stone Bulwark totem or Windwalk totem or Healing Tide totem.

But it does if you cast Searing Totem, Magma Totem, Storm Elemental Totem, or Earth Elemental Totem.

My Earth Elemental doesn't end when I use Searing Totem, or Shamanistic Rage, or Capacitor Totem.

But it does if you cast Tremor Totem, Earthbind totem, SBT, Storm Elemental Totem, or Fire Elemental Totem.

Need I remind you that some of those are talents directly conflicting with each other?

Again, your point is?

That no other class has that level of restrictions placed upon it.

My original point was everyone was having their casting while moving nerfed, which they are.

No, your original point was this;

They don't need compensation. They have spiritwalker's grace, which effectively means they can still cast on the move while everyone else can't.

Again, you were wrong. Man up and own it.

Shaman's just lose Lightning Bolt while moving. Which still leaves UE, Earth/Flame Shock, Frost Shock (On a separate cooldown come WoD), Maelstrom Weapon procs for Enhancement, Lava Surge procs for Elemental, Ancestral Swiftness, and our totems which continue to attack while we move.

And all the problems the class had before they got LB on the move.

[Canderous1]

rogues remain the most unchanged class imo, playing both rogue and shaman. that is the only point im contradicting.

enhancement has changed a lot over the years. that is the only spec i can really talk about.. but the rogue plays exactly the same as far back as i can remember. sub got some minor changes toward the end of bc, and assassination in lich king. you are still using all the same abilities you used way back then.

[Nebria]

Shaman's just lose Lightning Bolt while moving. Which still leaves UE, Earth/Flame Shock, Frost Shock (On a separate cooldown come WoD), Maelstrom Weapon procs for Enhancement, Lava Surge procs for Elemental, Ancestral Swiftness, and our totems which continue to attack while we move.

they changed the perk that implemented this with the perk which gives 30% speed for some seconds when you use ue, just fyi

[Odintdk]

So only take one of the talents? I mean, unless you're bad, you won't take two earth totems, you'll pick the one you like better.

The way Talents were changed in MoP was all about "choice", if 2 talents are going to conflict with each others, and i'm forced to pick one or the other, that REMOVES "choice", you can't call me bad if i wanted to have access to whatever options i have in whichever order i wanted BECAUSE Blizzard claimed TALENT CHOICES were the entire point.

The Vanila totem restrictions DOES NOT make sense when paired with the MoP TALENT system revamp, this is only the case for Shamans, and its a problem no matter how you spin it.

Which won't exist since everyone else is also having their movement casting nerfed with us.

We were given lightning bolt while moving because we were weak compared to everyone else, who could cast while moving. They are all getting massive restrictions. Now it won't be a problem. So those problems won't exist.

The problem in Cata (when LB on the move was introduced) wasn't because other classes had cast while moving spells, afaik only Hunters and fire mages had such spells. The issue was other ranged classes having access to very effective mobility options such as Blinks and portals etc, while ALSO having spammable instants when Shamans had NEITHER. LB on the move was supposed to replace the ability to move from point A to point B which did not, does not exist for Shamans.

I don't see the other classes losing such skills in WoD, so yes, the CATA problems WOULD come back and in the same if not a bigger gap between Elemental and other ranged specs, and what MOBILITY are we getting in exchange? What is going to be the difference between WoD Elementals and Cata Elementals? THE UE perk? No thanks.

I'm starting to doubt you're claiming to play Shaman as a main for the sake of arguing, either that or you haven't played Shaman in wotlk/Cata, in which case i don't blame your ignorance of the class.

[BedlamBros]

rogues remain the most unchanged class imo, playing both rogue and shaman. that is the only point im contradicting.

Combo points are now on the Rogue. That's a pretty big change. Unlike now where you build up 5 CPs, kill a target and lose them, you can stack 5CPs, kill a target and open up a five point finisher on a new target. Some of the Rogue CP-based talents and passives are also expected to change.

[Riplin]

Unless they really tweak the damage numbers what we can do while on the move is WEAK!

Searing = not worth the global for Ele
Shocks = weak damage with a 6s cooldown, and shared. These are all used for utility, NOT damage (outside of 7 stack fulmination)
UE = weak damage
Ancestral Swiftness = a single NATURE spell every 1.5 mins? please
Spiritwalker's Grace = ONLY good paired with Ascendance. Otherwise what do we get, 15 seconds of lightning bolts. hardly scary
Lava Surge procs = these are still nice, but random.

With the loss of Healing Tide, Elemental healing will be as low as you can go. Seriously in a BG with nearly full Prideful I can spam Healing Surge 10-15 times and still be at half health. It's horrible horrible (not to mention extremely mana draining).

With the loss of LB on the move, we will be the true glass turrets. No control, no defense, and easily shut down/trained.

Here's hoping every other class gets nerfed into the ground to compensate.

[Mithgroth]

No other class has access to that much utility, either.

Hello, how is WotLK still going?
This was the arguement pre-homogenization; enter homogenization, everybody has the same amount of utility. However Shaman keeps paying for the drawback. Since we have as much as utility of other classes, this restriction is unjust.

Please stop putting this arguement in 2014, it's not even funny anymore.

[Epistate]

Spiritwalker's Grace = ONLY good paired with Ascendance.

This is not true. In fact, I haven't had ASC glyphed for longer than I can think back. Learning how to manage your movement makes movement during ascendance a non-issue. Most of the mechanics in the game right now are able to be anticipated and planned for while also setting up your 2pc + UF buff on the target quit easily.

@Fleugen As for the main discussion of how SWG is so OP compared to other classes. Mages are obtaining a buff from using scorch, identical to our UE "buff" they gave us. The only difference is theirs doesn't have a CD and isn't involved in their main rotation. Point other class.

Almost every other class has greater mobility or access to ~meaningful~ instant casts, whereas ele's lack a good amount. This discussion on this thread has simplified to the exact same one that exists in the LB thread and will get nowhere (as does that one). Elemental's will not receive any attention until the alpha and beta have started, so that the devs can see just how useless their band-aids are being (and how much pain some will leave when ripped off).

[Deleted]

They aren't problems. They're decisions. Design restrictions.

restrictions? and decisions? Remind me which other class in the game is using a 5 min cd (fire elemental) than is loosing ot when he: Uses another skill (searing totem) runs out of range and the skill is `cancelled` losses the ability when he switches from one place to another `zone shifting garosh heroic` buggs out when your target is out of reach `engineer garosh heroic` ? I am ok with 5 min cd to have 1 of those restrictions but all of them... and you do not call this a problem? Mate are u feeling alright? because it seems to me that u have a very bad case of trolling virus...

If you are incapable to admit the shortcomings of the totems than i am sorry but noone can help you here and if you believe that other ppl should believe that the shaman class is ok than i will do that as soon as u believe that the shaman class is not ok.

- - - Updated - - -

Ferals also lose 90% of their DPS OUTSIDE of Cat form, meaning they have to be in the form at all times while DPSing. On the contrary, Shamans have their DPS and healing impacted significantly by going into Ghost Wolf.

I do agree that Feral movement speed is out of control, but that's not what this discussion is about. If you'd like to make a thread suggesting Ferals have lower movement speed, be my guest, and I'd be glad to agree with you. This discussion is about what's wrong with Shamans, and Feral movement speed being overpowered does not make Shaman movement speed any worse. We're still quite mobile as healers, (Riptide, drop Healing Rain/Healing Stream/Healing Tide, Ancestral Swiftness for an instant cast spell, Spiritwalker's Grace), the most mobile DPS having our main rotation ability as an instant cast plus Spiritwalker's grace making even our outside-main-rotation cast spells able to be used on the move, and we're second only to Rogues when it comes to movement as a melee DPS. Our movement speed is not a problem.

We must be playing 2 different games. Because i swear to god on my game client spiritwalker's grace is on a long cd and i can't use it on most situations when i move. I also am doing the extremely noobish mistake of using it with ascendance because otherwise my dps suffers and i am wasting half of my ascendance which leaves me with no other option but to have spiritwalker's grace only for that type of situation which means i can't use it for the other times when i have to move.

Our moving speed is a problem if we are much slower movement wise from the other classes ingame and need twice as long or more to move from point a to point be because of this which means we are under greater risk of getting caught by some nasty mechanic and die and we will do much less dmg than the rest of the classes who can outmaneuver us. I don't know how any descent shaman could not be familiar with such basics but there u have them.

Please feel free to disagree so i can have a good laugh.

I will be the fool and pretend to be an oracle for the next part. Since blizz were so kind to tell us that we will lack dmg on the move but will be compensated with better stationary dmg than other classes i predict right here and right now that after the expansion hits if at max level with same ilevel ele shaman a warlock mage and hunter stay on one spot dont move and dps one target with the same buffs.. shamans will be 3-rd at best or 4-th hands down. And once we go into a raid the margin will become even bigger from all those classes in a normal boss fight battle we will be dead last.
When that happens i promise ppl like you that instead of getting angry i will have a laugh remembering how some deluded guy on the forums 6 months ago was trying to convince me that everything was going to be alright although plenty of us knew that was not going to be the case and this expansion.

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This is not true. In fact, I haven't had ASC glyphed for longer than I can think back. Learning how to manage your movement makes movement during ascendance a non-issue. Most of the mechanics in the game right now are able to be anticipated and planned for while also setting up your 2pc + UF buff on the target quit easily.

except that there are plenty situations where you have to pair them up and when that happens your cast on the move cd is on cd. Even if that is the case i cant see a mechanic on a boss where he is casting 1 skill on 1 min and a half majority of bosses required u to move constantly and saying stuff like `yeah you have spiritlwaker's grace` is just stupid since u can only use it so many times.

[Deleted]

restrictions? and decisions? Remind me which other class in the game is using a 5 min cd (fire elemental) than is loosing ot when he: Uses another skill (searing totem) runs out of range and the skill is `cancelled` losses the ability when he switches from one place to another `zone shifting garosh heroic` buggs out when your target is out of reach `engineer garosh heroic` ? I am ok with 5 min cd to have 1 of those restrictions but all of them... and you do not call this a problem? Mate are u feeling alright? because it seems to me that u have a very bad case of trolling virus...

If you are incapable to admit the shortcomings of the totems than i am sorry but noone can help you here and if you believe that other ppl should believe that the shaman class is ok than i will do that as soon as u believe that the shaman class is not ok.

Who is placing a Searing Totem after their Fire Elemental, or using their Fire Elemental during a Garrosh transition anyway? Totemic Projection actually shifts the bind point of your Fire Elemental, so you don't have to lose it if you need to move and are specced into Projection.

There are obviously niggling little issues at times, but they're no worse than some others like Alter Time, or you can ask Hunters how often they have pet issues.

And once again (it's like the seventh time I've said it now, please pay attention this time ):

Consider, for a moment, if you will, that they may not want you to use Fire Elemental and Searing at the same time. They may not want you to use Capacitor and Spirit Link at the same time. They may not want you to use Earthgrab and Stone Bulwark at the same time. Why? Go and ask them, not me. I am very confident this is the reason, but why they don't want you to use some abilities in conjunction with each other would be pure speculation, and you really need to ask them why they don't want you to use Tremor with your Earth Elemental.

[SenSayNyu]

Who is placing a Searing Totem after their Fire Elemental, or using their Fire Elemental during a Garrosh transition anyway? Totemic Projection actually shifts the bind point of your Fire Elemental, so you don't have to lose it if you need to move and are specced into Projection.

There are obviously niggling little issues at times, but they're no worse than some others like Alter Time, or you can ask Hunters how often they have pet issues.

And once again (it's like the seventh time I've said it now, please pay attention this time ):

Consider, for a moment, if you will, that they may not want you to use Fire Elemental and Searing at the same time. They may not want you to use Capacitor and Spirit Link at the same time. They may not want you to use Earthgrab and Stone Bulwark at the same time. Why? Go and ask them, not me. I am very confident this is the reason, but why they don't want you to use some abilities in conjunction with each other would be pure speculation, and you really need to ask them why they don't want you to use Tremor with your Earth Elemental.

Then why we have talent that allows it?

[Deleted]

Then why we have talent that allows it?

Obviously I meant by default. Allowing you to do so via a talent is like allowing you to move them through Projection - it's a benefit, something you can choose to spec into if you wish.

Which, to be honest, further proves that it's a design mechanism. Easing the restrictions to allow you to use two at the same is a nice totem utility, as is moving them, or resetting the short cooldown ones.

[Eliot123]

It's just bad design and that's all there is to it.

We all know that if they don't do much more for shamans soon it'll be Cataclysm all over again (i.e. band aids for pretty much all 3 specs some time mid-WoD), we've all been down this road.

[Blithe]

It's just bad design and that's all there is to it.

We all know that if they don't do much more for shamans soon it'll be Cataclysm all over again (i.e. band aids for pretty much all 3 specs some time mid-WoD), we've all been down this road.

Agreed, I can definitely see that happening.

[Deleted]

Obviously I meant by default. Allowing you to do so via a talent is like allowing you to move them through Projection - it's a benefit, something you can choose to spec into if you wish.

Which, to be honest, further proves that it's a design mechanism. Easing the restrictions to allow you to use two at the same is a nice totem utility, as is moving them, or resetting the short cooldown ones.

Agreed. The choice for multiple totems of the same element makes sense as a talent imo. Talents and Glyphs are meant to be similar in that you want to have them all but you need to pick the ones you want. Talents are stronger than Glyphs though because you only get 1 of each tier rather than 3 of each tier. I think Totemic Projection however is unique in this tier in that is should be baseline. It feels like it would solve so many other issues with our class if it was, and as they are willing to give us the option to have it then balance issues aren't really a thing.

I could see them saying that because it does solve so many downsides of our class, it is only right that we have to sacrifice something to get it, which is why I'm not overly up in arms about this, but I do feel like the upsides in this case outweigh the downsides. Maybe they could give some kind of downside to the use of Totemic Projection like it reduces the duration of totems moved by 10% or something, encouraging you to place your totems correctly to begin with, but giving you the option to move them if doing so is not possible/you misplayed.

It's just bad design and that's all there is to it.

We all know that if they don't do much more for shamans soon it'll be Cataclysm all over again (i.e. band aids for pretty much all 3 specs some time mid-WoD), we've all been down this road.

You can't say this. Someone speaks out against your point, you can't just turn around and say 'Well it just IS okay!' like that makes you right somehow.

Also, again with the 'We all know blah' statements. No, no we don't.

1 - I thoroughly enjoyed the changes that Elemental received in Cataclysm, probably the best expansion for Elemental in the history of WoW imo with how generic and macroable our rotation was before it to how it is now. I don't see how those changes were 'band-aid' fixes at all.
2 - You are still yet to really explain why the class needs such massive changes beyond 'because it just does' or 'because everyone else got more changes than us'.

There are changes that I think should be addressed, make Searing Totem more interesting, make HST more interesting for example. However, these changes don't need massive sweeping changes to the class like redesigning how the whole totem system works. If you feel we do need that, then fair enough, but explain why, and if someone comes at you with a counterargument, actually try and have a debate with then, don't just ignore their points and flatly state they are wrong, then go on to state the entire community agrees with you.

[Deleted]

In defence of Eliot123, from a resto perspective ("here he goes again"), that's exactly how last 2 expansions looked like. Underwhelming, clunky, battling with a design that is not fitted to modern day raids, while producing subpar numbers. Then, a 10/20% across the board hotfix. Rince, repeat.

I'm with you on the HST. I would love some QoL introduced. I would love talent overhaul because there's literally NONE choices involved for a healer. I wish for a mastery rework, but that is the only revolutionary change i think is needed.

Do i agree with all their design ideas? No, but there are ones i can understand - like the one totem per element limitation. I don't like it, i don't agree it's needed, but i can see the viewpoint. But frankly, if a spec requires a flat out buff across the board every tier content OR it drops 40-50% behind, there isn't much you can say to rationalise it.

[shammypie]

Agreed. The choice for multiple totems of the same element makes sense as a talent imo. Talents and Glyphs are meant to be similar in that you want to have them all but you need to pick the ones you want. Talents are stronger than Glyphs though because you only get 1 of each tier rather than 3 of each tier. I think Totemic Projection however is unique in this tier in that is should be baseline. It feels like it would solve so many other issues with our class if it was, and as they are willing to give us the option to have it then balance issues aren't really a thing.

I could see them saying that because it does solve so many downsides of our class, it is only right that we have to sacrifice something to get it, which is why I'm not overly up in arms about this, but I do feel like the upsides in this case outweigh the downsides. Maybe they could give some kind of downside to the use of Totemic Projection like it reduces the duration of totems moved by 10% or something, encouraging you to place your totems correctly to begin with, but giving you the option to move them if doing so is not possible/you misplayed.

.

I agree the 2 other talents in that tier are good and projection needs to be made baseline for QOL issues. I also agree that it should reduce the duration of the totems by some %. I would actually like more of a 50-75% duration reduction for synergy with Capacitor totem. Furthermore i would also like them to change it so that all the totems spawn on your curser and not in the 4 set locations for ease of targeting people.

.[/QUOTE]



You can't say this. Someone speaks out against your point, you can't just turn around and say 'Well it just IS okay!' like that makes you right somehow.

Also, again with the 'We all know blah' statements. No, no we don't.

1 - I thoroughly enjoyed the changes that Elemental received in Cataclysm, probably the best expansion for Elemental in the history of WoW imo with how generic and macroable our rotation was before it to how it is now. I don't see how those changes were 'band-aid' fixes at all.
2 - You are still yet to really explain why the class needs such massive changes beyond 'because it just does' or 'because everyone else got more changes than us'.

There are changes that I think should be addressed, make Searing Totem more interesting, make HST more interesting for example. However, these changes don't need massive sweeping changes to the class like redesigning how the whole totem system works. If you feel we do need that, then fair enough, but explain why, and if someone comes at you with a counterargument, actually try and have a debate with then, don't just ignore their points and flatly state they are wrong, then go on to state the entire community agrees with you.[/QUOTE]

I think there are a lot of changes that need to be made to shamans not for change sake but for the class itself. Ele mechanically i think is in a good place but could be tuned better. Enhance is clunky and could use better secondary stat synergy. Resto needs a rework to mastery/direction.