Making Alliance interesting

[Deleted]

Maiev, a priestess of Elune, was leader of the of the Watchers. Califax was her subordinate. Also, Malfurion knew about Tyrande's plan to release Illidan. They even split up before she goes inside the prison.

You should avoid calling peoples name, we are having a discussion.


PS: the Pope has no actual power, the Pope at 1500 AC did. Tyrande does.

People change professions. Maiev was no longer a priestess of Elune when she became leader of the Watchers, Califax was a Keeper of the Grove, something the Elune Priesthood had no direct control over. Malfurion knew of her idea and knew it was a shit one, because Tyrande is an utterly terrible and horrid person.

But people like her because she's a hotheaded dumbass? Where at every turn she makes bad mistakes and Malfurion needs to fix them because of her ignorance and stupidty?

I think it's best summed up how much of an utterly indefensible character Tyrande is when they are tasked with destroying the World Tree. Tyrande says that they might lose their immortality, and Malfurion, being the only voice of reason within the Entire Night Elf Society since the dawn of it says the best line in Warcraft 3.

"If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already."

People always harp that they want a strong Night Elf Character, yet they go for Tyrande every time. When Malfurion Stormrage is the perfect example of how a Night Elf Character should be.

Stoic, Wise, Primal and Noble.

[Florena]

I think they were doing something interesting stuff with the Alliance originally! The exterior of the humans was fantasy kingdom with knights in shining armour as you stated, but the concept of that race (which I think you can still read in the original WoW manual) was that the interior was quite different. Corruption everywhere! the masons had not been paid which lead to the Defias. And then the solution is just to kill the Defias :P. The King was missing, leaving a kid on the throne with less-than-trustworthy advisors one of whom turned out to be a damn black dragon :P. Meanwhile despite all the posturing the armies of the Alliance were failing so badly in the areas around Elwynn that Duskwood and Redridge seemed to be on the point of declaring independence.
Ever since the adventure moved on however these aspects seem to have been forgotten. Varian is pretty much a fantasy superhero and the 'corruption' in Cataclysm was just a foil for the really heroic characters (and us) to be more heroic about. All the moral greyness that the original human faction had (shiny exterior, but actually not really better than the 'demons' they were fighting against) seems to have seeped away and any time it turns up we get to beat it back to where it came from.

Yeah, the problem isn't that 'humans are just boring.' Anyone who says that should get slapped upside the head. It's that blizz is writing boring humans. They've done interesting human stories in WC 3 and vanilla. In fact the overall story of the kingdom of Stormwind falling apart at the seams, held together in Westfall, Duskwood and Redridge only because of the aid of heroes like you, then being sent specifically to ask for aid and being shot down by Prestor, and then having the reveal that the Highlord was the puppet of a dragon and ousting said dragon was a cool story. I like Varian but his story could have been handled much better.

Rather than having him resolve his issues in books and short stories, they could have done that in MoP itself, and it would have fit the theme of the expansion perfectly, with Varian overcoming his issues while Garrosh succumbs to his orcish pride. But no, we can't have that kind of thing shown in game, better to have him angry in Wrath, do nothing in Cata then be knight in shining armor king in MoP.

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People change professions. Maiev was no longer a priestess of Elune when she became leader of the Watchers, Califax was a Keeper of the Grove, something the Elune Priesthood had no direct control over. Malfurion knew of her idea and knew it was a shit one, because Tyrande is an utterly terrible and horrid person.

But people like her because she's a hotheaded dumbass? Where at every turn she makes bad mistakes and Malfurion needs to fix them because of her ignorance and stupidty?

I think it's best summed up how much of an utterly indefensible character Tyrande is when they are tasked with destroying the World Tree. Tyrande says that they might lose their immortality, and Malfurion, being the only voice of reason within the Entire Night Elf Society since the dawn of it says the best line in Warcraft 3.

"If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already."

People always harp that they want a strong Night Elf Character, yet they go for Tyrande every time. When Malfurion Stormrage is the perfect example of how a Night Elf Character should be.

Stoic, Wise, Primal and Noble.

I wouldn't say that letting Illidan out was a bad idea. Without him killing Tichondrius and taking the skull of Gul'dan things may have turned out not so great, as suggested by the demon hunter in Felwood. Plus life imprisonment is kind of a dick punishment when the prisoner is immortal.

[Dragon2K]

People change professions. Maiev was no longer a priestess of Elune when she became leader of the Watchers, Califax was a Keeper of the Grove, something the Elune Priesthood had no direct control over. Malfurion knew of her idea and knew it was a shit one, because Tyrande is an utterly terrible and horrid person.

But people like her because she's a hotheaded dumbass? Where at every turn she makes bad mistakes and Malfurion needs to fix them because of her ignorance and stupidty?

I think it's best summed up how much of an utterly indefensible character Tyrande is when they are tasked with destroying the World Tree. Tyrande says that they might lose their immortality, and Malfurion, being the only voice of reason within the Entire Night Elf Society since the dawn of it says the best line in Warcraft 3.

"If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already."

People always harp that they want a strong Night Elf Character, yet they go for Tyrande every time. When Malfurion Stormrage is the perfect example of how a Night Elf Character should be.

Stoic, Wise, Primal and Noble.

Another good indiction of how terrible Blizzard treats its female characters :P

[Littlepwny]

People change professions. Maiev was no longer a priestess of Elune when she became leader of the Watchers, Califax was a Keeper of the Grove, something the Elune Priesthood had no direct control over. Malfurion knew of her idea and knew it was a shit one, because Tyrande is an utterly terrible and horrid person.

But people like her because she's a hotheaded dumbass? Where at every turn she makes bad mistakes and Malfurion needs to fix them because of her ignorance and stupidty?

I think it's best summed up how much of an utterly indefensible character Tyrande is when they are tasked with destroying the World Tree. Tyrande says that they might lose their immortality, and Malfurion, being the only voice of reason within the Entire Night Elf Society since the dawn of it says the best line in Warcraft 3.

"If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already."

People always harp that they want a strong Night Elf Character, yet they go for Tyrande every time. When Malfurion Stormrage is the perfect example of how a Night Elf Character should be.

Stoic, Wise, Primal and Noble.

You can flaunt this all you want but the games have made it clear that Tyrande was acting within her rights. Also, Tyrande's action to rescue Illidan saved Azeroth considering he wiped out the Burning Legion's top general and a large portion of their forces. Also, the Cataclysm did not blow up Azeroth, I am sure whatever Illidan was doing to fight the Lich King was insignificant.

You see a stoic, wise, primal and noble man where I see a petty, cruel, unsympathetic, too proud to admit his mistakes man and a traitor to his race.

Also, I personally consider Shandris Feathermoon a better choice than Tyrande. Malfurion should die thought. Also, warning Malfurion about the loss of immortality is not a flaw on her part, if anything, she admitted her mistake and went along with it. Admittance of being wrong is an admirable trait.

[Deleted]

Another good indiction of how terrible Blizzard treats its female characters :P

Not at all, it's just the idea of an Amazon high Priestess who works purely on her whims and emotions is a totally BAD character. She was designed to be a foil.

The Hubris of an Immortal.

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You see a stoic, wise, primal and noble man where I see a petty, cruel, unsympathetic, too proud to admit his mistakes man and a traitor to his race.

I assume your a feminist then? Because Malfurion was hardly petty, Cruel, Unsympathetic or Proud when he didn't flintch at all when it came to sacrificing his immortality for the good of all?

And Race traitor? For not being a Xenophobic loon? Alright hun, whatever you say.

Malfurion was right, no matter how you dance around the subject. Yes, Tyrande ADMITTED HER MISTAKE. You know whats more admirable? Not being so hung up on your Immortality in the first place.

[Dristereau]

There's been some good points in this thread about whats wrong with the Alliance and what could be done to help. Before I say too much, I might as well just say that I agree that the Alliance is too Human centric and the Horde has a much more developed story in game. I'm not saying the Alliance has no story, but most major events happen in books. Then theres Blue Jesus, Varian-Jaina and Jaina-Varian, given the two seem to have swapped roles.

Not going into it too much (because I'm sleepy), but Tyrande came across as useless in MoP. Varian's call for Velen at the end of 5.1 was cut and the Draenei still have yet to do anything. Malfurion might as well be neutral, because currently I don't see him as anything else, especially in comparison to Warcraft III. You find out the conclusion to the Worgen story by playing Undead/Horde, and Genn has done nothing since Gilneas. Gnomes are still trying to retake Gnomeragon, and don't seem to do anything else.

For the Horde we've seen massive focus on Green Jesus, Garrosh and now looking at Durotan for Orcs. Vol'jin had some strong moments in Cataclysm and is now leader of the Horde. We've seen the Tauren leadership change from Cairne to Baine and the conflicts of that. Blood Elves have had the Leader finally given a new breath of life that makes him interesting and active. Undead and Sylvanas have definitely made the Horde interesting. Can't say much for Goblins though.

My point is that the Horde feels like its advancing, adapting, and changing. Theramore going boom definitely is noticeable in game. Dalaran is still however a neutral city in WotLK. I know you can scream quest hub and such at me, but are you telling me it could not have been placed off the coast of Orgrimmar as an Alliance only camp? Also Moira Bronzebeard had the potential to be as scheming and interesting a character as Sylvanas is for the Horde, but no, she cozies up to Varian.

[Littlepwny]

I assume your a feminist then? Because Malfurion was hardly petty, Cruel, Unsympathetic or Proud when he didn't flintch at all when it came to sacrificing his immortality for the good of all?

And Race traitor? For not being a Xenophobic loon? Alright hun, whatever you say.

Malfurion was right, no matter how you dance around the subject. Yes, Tyrande ADMITTED HER MISTAKE. You know whats more admirable? Not being so hung up on your Immortality in the first place.

Heh, feminist... dem jokes.

Malfurion was fully justified in sacrificing the world tree to save the world and the night elves. However, his inaction throughout Wolfheart (+ Leyara), his refusal to even try to save Shandris in Tyrande's short story show how a pathetic excuse of a night elf he is. Tyrande's admits her mistakes, Malfurion doesn't. Also, since you are ignoring the subject, isn't Malfurion petty and far too proud for refusing to release the powerhouse that is Illidan Stormrage?

I'd pick Tyrande any day.

I also find it laughable how you consider their immortality like some kind of joke. They grew up with it, they lived with it for millenia. Of course Tyrande will be cautious about throwing it away.

[Jessicka]

Arthas, no?

Urgh. Arthas was from Lordaeron. Lordaeron is now the Undercity. That's actually mostly Forsaken, and therefore Horde story, not Alliance. Stop forgetting this.

[Florena]

Urgh. Arthas was from Lordaeron. Lordaeron is now the Undercity. That's actually mostly Forsaken, and therefore Horde story, not Alliance. Stop forgetting this.

The forsaken and blood elves are really the two biggest races in terms of involvement in his story when you consider that the player humans (rp stories aside) are from SW and not even in wc 3 and that Dalaran is neutral in Wrath. Sadly though the belves were mostly just involved in the dalaran malygos plot and the Forsaken's role as the vengeful undead taken over by neutral ebon blade.

[Fenixdown]

Making Alliance interesting is a pipedream of people who play Alliance. All the devs see is red and black. I mean, this is Blizzhorde we're talking about.

[Deleted]

Oh dear fucking god. We have one of THESE retards.

Here is a hint. Night Elf Society was not a Matriarchal society. It was a Society split entire down the middle with two different theologies peacefully coexisting.

Tyrande was the leader of the Sentinels and the Priesthood of Elune. This was the "Matriarchal" side people saw, these were the women who were not bound by druidic code, those who watched over Kalimdor.

What YOU forget and what EVERY Night elf fanboy/girl seems to forget is how much pull Malfurion had and how the Druidic Sect was Just as large and just as important to Night Elven Society was.

Tyrande didn't command the Druids, she had no sway over them, the dryads or the Keepers of the Grove, these acted entirely under Cenarious and to a lesser extent Malfurion's leadership.

It's why MALFURION is needed to be awakened for the rest of the druids to rally, and it's why the Watchers, who are commanded by the Druidic sect, are within a Barrow Den, with a Keeper of the Grove as it's leader. It's why Maiev gives Tyrande the finger every time they meet.

Because the Watchers were not the Sentinels, they were not there to be commanded by the priesthood of Elune, they were there to defend the druids important assets.

Learn

Your

Lore

No, you need to think in learning your bloody lore terms.

The Watchers didn't give a shit about Tyrande being the High priestess of Elune Because they were Druid run, and they really don't care when the High Priestess comes in demanding they release their most dangerous prisoner.

It's like the Pope demanding the Yorkshire Ripper being released in person, with a threat of force. You think that bastard isn't going to get mowed down?

Who is the leader of the dryads? Cenarius, of course. But night elves are not dryads, are they?

So let's see again, what do night elf druids do? Well, they use the powers of nature, and the Emerald Dream, and, of course, Elune. Are Ysera or Cenarius their leaders? No, they're their teachers, they teach them how to best use their powers. They're mentors, and they do have an influence in night elven society. But the sole leader of night elves is and has been since the War of the Ancients, Elune. And since Elune can't lead the night elves herself, her representative on Azeroth, her avatar, if you please, the High Priestess of Elune, is their leader.
And she went to wake Malfurion up first because he is the strongest druid and her mate. She, after all, loved him. In a similar case, would you not try to save your love first? Bonus points if he's a powerful magic user! He, however, was, and is, still, under her. They are now co-leading the night elves, yes, but Elune is still the true leader, so if she'd give Tyrande a vision to do something with which Malfurion does not agree, not doing it would, in the end, be treason. Do you know why Malfurion could go with the Cenarion Circle and abandon the night elves in Ashenvale in the face of the Horde? Because everyone knew that defending the World Tree from Ragnaros is more important then their ancient homelands, for if the World Tree burned, the entire world would, too.

But let's return to Tyrande and take a look at what she did in WC3. So, from start, we know orcs killed Cenarius. Naturally, some night elves escaped and told Tyrande about the fel infused orcs. So orcs are scouts of the Legion. And here they are, with humans. So basic logic dictates that humans are also members of the legion. Ok, let's attack them.
Oh, but the Legion is here, there were not just scouts, but full Legion invasion! Go to army.
Let's wake the druids, most powerful druid is sleeping there. Orc camp on way, they're Legion scouts so evil, even the dryad messanger said so.
Malfurion says these guys who killed Cenarius are also fighting the Legion... but they killed Cenarius and Malfurion just woke up so he can't know all the facts, so we ignore them unless we have to deal with them and go awaken the druids. Furbolgs are our allies, let's help them.
So we're in a cave going for the druids of the claw, but there's a night elven door there... what's there? Illidan? Well, he can fight the Legion too! And think about all those who can join us, guards and prisoners, to fight the Legion! We can really bolster our forces. Malfurion said no and went on to wake up the druids. Some wildkin says that even the Goddess sees Illidan as corrupt... but Tyrande is the avatar of Elune, she has gotten visions from her, so the wildkin's vision is outdated... and yet he and others attacked Tyrande. This is a rebellion in the worst possible moment. By not dealing with it, it would make Tyrande look weak. I already explained her options in previous post, killing the rebels is the only option. Heck, even if she wasn't the leader of the watchers, by the simple fact that they refused the call to fight the Legion, they threaten the stability of her army, for others might get cold feet and say "well, I've always wanted to be a watcher too and not fight the Legion, and sit in this here cave!", thus weakening her army and her remaining army's morale.

So she goes and frees Illidan. Illidan turns himself into a demon and kills Trichondrious. His brother banishes him for it... yet... in this instance, even if Illidan is cursed now, he was right in doing what he did, for it was the only option! So here it's Malfurion putting his pride above anything, he refused to admit that his brother sacrificed his elfness to help them defeat the Legion. Yes, he's now part demon, and for that, even if they win the war, he will always be treated like a lesser creature, yet he did that to save Tyrande (and other night elves). So he banished him.

Ok, next thing is the interlude with the prophet. Tyrande asks if it's wise to trust these outsiders, in the end, they killed Cenarius. Malfurion had a vision though. Ok, let's talk then. And then join forces.

In last mission Malfurion understands that they need to sacrifice their immportality. Of course Tyrande asks what any other night elf would, if there's another way, since, you know, their immortality is an important part of their life(which is why Fandral was able to plant Teldrassil and he was supported by most night elves, it's because they all wanted their immortality back, so this is not just Tyrande's view, she just stated the view of her people hoping there could be another way). There was not another way so she agrees with the plan.

In the Frozen Throne, Illidan has gone and got some naga on his side. His goal now is to kill the Lich King. The madness is starting to take root, which is why he thinks the end justifies the means. Since nobody is going to give him a boat, he fights the night elves until he finds one. Maiev is chasing him.
He goes to the Tomb of Sargeras. Maiev is chasing him. He tries to get rid of her, since, for him, the end justifies the means.
He goes to start his ritual. Maiev calls for Tyrande and Malfurion. Ok. Malfurion goes to listen to trees, Tyrande comes with Maiev. On the way they meet Kael'thas. His goal is helping some of the caravans get to safety then going to Dalaran. Tyrande wants to help, for helping a populace in danger is important. Maiev just cares about Illidan (who is the brash one now?). They become overwhelmed by undead, so Tyrande goes into a chokepoint and does her starfall. She saves the blood elves and her forces, but bridge falls. Maiev abandons her!
Malfurion is overcome with grief after Maiev tells him Tyrande died. He goes to stop Illidan and kill him (stop him because Malfurion knows that Illidan's goal can harm the world too much, something Illidan does not, and kill him because Tyrande is dead due to him). He captures him and Illidan says that Tyrande is alive! Maiev was lieing so Malfurion joins with Illidan to save her.
They save her, and they let Illidan go, for even Malfurion has understood that Illidan is not truly evil, despite being half-demon. Maiev goes for him and Tyrande comments that she's become vengeance herself (P.S.: Maiev and Illidan, with their struggles, seem to have been more interesting then Tyrande and Malfurion in a way).

Anyway, since we were talking about Tyrande alone, I'll end it here. My point is that there is only one situation where Tyrande's action may be argued as not being justified, which is freeing Illidan, but if you think from the point that she was facing a superior enemy of higher power that would annihilate everyone, taking every able body is necessary, and even the prisoners would join the struggle to save their lives (and, as an example, they did, all prisoners in the Burrowed Dens join Tyrande in that mission). Illidan was not a friend of the Legion, and he knew their tactics, so he was an asset.

Last, but not least, while, if the pope said something now, nobody cared, if he said it in ... 1500 or before (since I said to think in medieval terms), most would have listened. How do you think he managed to gather armies to go in several Crusades? Or the fact that several leaders of nations did not get in power because they did not receive his blessing. And in WoW you're dealing with a "pope" with an even stronger power that also receives visions from the true leader.

I will not argue that Tyrande has shown herself to be full of herself in cases. But this flaw makes her character interesting. And you know what? She was arrogant at times, but only when she was sure she was right. Going in melee in small spaces when your army has used guerilla tactics, traps, and archery as their main tactics is neither of those, it's Tyrande being stupid and forgetting any tactics in favour of berserking.

This is the whole issue, the Tyrande in WC3 was feral brash, as in, she had experience and concluded that her choice was the right one based on that experience no matter what anyone said. The Tyrande in "A little patience" is berserker brash, as in, she would just burst in forgetting any logic of any kind, not basing her tactic on any type of previous experience and ignoring everything anyone said. They are two different types of being aggresive.
Example:
Thrall is the feral aggressive. When he's threatened, he thinks how to deal with the situation based on previous experience then storms in based on a plan.
Garrosh is the berserker aggressive. When he's threatened he storms in based on no plan except "kill".

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Name me something Greymane has done since the Worgen starter area. I don't even care if it's interesting, literally anything. If he coughed once, that would count. (I understand the irony of him getting sick in WoD)

Swap Varian's personality with Tyrande, what do you get? No change, they're the same person. Our leaders don't have unique personality, they beat it out of them. Tyrande was SUPPOSED to be a tribal leader that was a masterful tactician, leader of her people, which they then gave her a different accent, and let Malfurion (At the time females had near full rule of the Nightelf cultue) tell her to hush, and she just took it.

Greymane could be a savage (lawl) leader for the Alliance, go back to the worgen roots instead of human 2.0 with fish and chips.

These are the sorts of things most people want. Not dark brooding corrupt crap, just make them have their own nitch like the Horde leaders do.

I didn't say anything specifically about Greymane. But things happens behind the scenes and in books. I agree that the other Alliance leaders need more spotlight, but when someone says "Alliance Lore" .. there is more to it than the specific playable race leaders.

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You should probably read more than a couple posts then. What I have read (and my opinion as well) is that the Alliance is unique and interesting in its own right. The problem is that Blizzard basically doesn't give a damn about them and keeps writing them as generic goody two shoes HUMANS While the other races are just there to compliment king chin. And our leaders? They may as well not exist. Varian is everyone's leader as far as Blizz cares.

And in spite of all that the humans exist only to help progress a Horde Story. So what we have is a hierarchy.

1: Orcs Orcs Orcs
2: The rest of the Horde
3: Humans to help the Horde story.
4: Reskinned humans that players can play as.

What we are asking for is

1: Horde races = Alliance races in regards to development in game.
2: Let's not stroke it to Orcs for another expansion and at least focus on another race. Even Horde races.
3: Let's have Alliance leaders be more than just an NPC that stand next to Varian.


Seriously. How is fixing the park in SW still on the backburner?Why do I know half of Thrall's life story from Alliance gameplay and I have to do outside research to know who the hell Prophet Velen is?? Why do Gnomes exist for the sole purpose of evening out faction races? I could go on but I'm sleepy. Funny thing. I was thinking of him as I read that other post. Other than standing next to King Chin I know nothing of the guys actions. And like I said above. I didn't even know who Velen was for the longest. I PLAY DRAENEI and love them. And I had no idea who Velen was for 80% of my time playing this game.

But I can tell you that Thrall is a Shaman. He is the first Orc Shaman in a long while. He is married to Aggra and they are having babies. He has blue eyes which is apparently special. he was the orc leader but gave it up to Garrosh so he can do some soul searching. Etc etc.

And I had no idea who my faction leader was -_-

I read through a few pages and that what I was addressing wasn't exactly rare or anything. I even quoted the type of posts I was aiming at, so I don't know how you could think I was talking to you about it.

[Deleted]

I find Alliance very interesting.

I think people are focusing way too much on the fact that a few guys like Samwise and Metzen are obviously big fans of their horde, projecting that as if ALL Alliance is just bland and boring because of it. No, the Alliance has plenty of interesting story and tidbits, theyre just not getting as much of the limelight which is a shame but it's not the biggest deal in the world to me.

The Alliance has by far the better and deeper backstory and are more culturally interesting and diverse than the Horde is currently.