How Much Rehashing is Unacceptable?

[Jaylock]

Okay, something i've noticed as im sure many of you have is that Blizzard has a known history to rehash much of the content they previously worked on. Some notable examples:

• Dragon Soul (almost entire instance was a rehash)
• Zul'Gurub (rehash of the 20 man raid)
• Zul'Aman (rehash of the 10 man raid)
• Naxxaramus 2.0 (a literal copy and paste from vanilla naxx for wrath progression content)
• Scholomance (rehash of the classic dungeon)
• Shadowfang keep (rehash of the classic dungeon)
• Deadmines (rehash of the classic dungeon)
• Seige of Orgrimmar (literally 50% of the raid was previous out door world environments)
• Scenarios (many of them a rehash of an already outdoor open environment)
• Onyxia (a copy and paste to Wrath updated to 80)
• Black wing descent (rehashed Nefarian, Re-Rehashed Onyxia)

Now this list even surprises me as a long time fan of the franchise. It looks like a whole expansion could have been made from this. At what point does the rehashing become unacceptable to you? Or, is it okay that they continue this trend, and will likely continue it even into WoD?

Will we see original content for the end raid of WoD?

I feel that they definately have the resources to be able to come up with original ideas that a) stick to the lore and cannon of warcraft, and b) are new and feel fresh and fun.

[Zenny]

If it's spread out over a long period of time then it's perfectly acceptable. The list you mentioned goes back about 6 years now. The majority of all content that Blizzard introduces is brand new, with some raids/dungeons here and there being updated and/or tweaked. It can work to great effect, especially in something like Siege of Orgrimmar.

[Jaylock]

If it's spread out over a long period of time then it's perfectly acceptable. The list you mentioned goes back about 6 years now. The majority of all content that Blizzard introduces is brand new, with some raids/dungeons here and there being updated and/or tweaked. It can work to great effect, especially in something like Siege of Orgrimmar.

I disagree. Going into orgrimmar to kill raid bosses felt bland and not fresh. I was like: "oh hey theres the bank, theres the auction house that the majority of my time is spent. Oh hey, theres the drag with a few orc catapults strewn around, oh hey theres the entrance to rage fire chasm"

[Mystile]

Yay another Jaylock thread with Guaranteed Replies.

Dragon Soul was a bad raid, in environment and mechanics. The entire experience was poor.

ZG was completely redone. The only thing that remained was the environment, which even then was still changed somewhat (no Bat area).

ZA is similar to DS; same zone and mechanics. However it was still enjoyable (for awhile).

Naxx was redone because of how few actually saw the content, and yes, it was a cheap cop out, but honestly it was a great starter raid.

Scholo is completely different. Only the zone was reused, and even then (notice a theme yet?) it was changed.

SFK was completely redone and given a heroic mode, nothing reused except the environment. Why would they change a classic dungeon instead of putting in a new one if it was going to be 100% different?

VC (Deadmines) look at SFK, same shit.

Siege of Orgrimmar?

Going into orgrimmar to kill raid bosses felt bland and not fresh. I was like: "oh hey theres the bank, theres the auction house that the majority of my time is spent. Oh hey, theres the drag with a few orc catapults strewn around, oh hey theres the entrance to rage fire chasm"

How you going to siege a place without going to it?

Scenarios tell a story in a place where a quest line would be less helpful for the story. Their purpose is to tell the story (also for fast valor).

Onyxia, this fucking red herring. It was redone as a bonus for their 6th(?) anniversary. You're welcome for getting a gift on Blizzard's day.

BWD. Just because the bosses' names (Nefarian and Onyxia) are used does not, in any way, make them rehashed. This is a terrible attempt for your "argument."

As for seeing original content? No, not by your standards, because the bosses are somewhat already in the game. Gul'dan? REHASHED GG BLIZZ. And so on.

[Jaylock]

First off, we already know what raids we'll see in WoD's first tier. No rehashing (iirc... >_>). There are a couple of updated dungeons though. Which I think is fine. It's basically just bring content people liked into the modern age of the game.

As for everything else, I'd say it is fine. It has been spread out over years. It isn't as though they give us rehash after rehash every 6 months.

I agree with you here, but too much in one expansion (like MoP, like Cata) can hurt the perception that they are actually creating new content.

Also, i have never seen anywhere where people were yelling and screaming for them to update old dungeons for max level content.

[MoanaLisa]

If you're assaulting the capital city of a faction, one would presume that you would not be presented suddenly with an entirely new urban environment. The world is the world. If you're going to have raids or scenarios staged partially or entirely in the world I wouldn't expect to see massive changes as it totally disrupts the story-telling.

[Deleted]

Regarding scearios, I like rehashes to some extent. It was fun to go back to frostfire ridge, for example, for the first time since levelling. There's a lot of beautiful content no one has any reason to visit.

[Spl4sh3r]

Some of those "rehashes" shouldn't even be on the list because they have their reasons. Onyxia was not added as new content, it wasn't intended to be new content it was scaled up as an anniversary special. If you don't want anniversary things you can just ignore them and play like they don't exist. Nothing in Blackwing Descent is rehashed in my opinion. The bosses aren't even similar to Blackwing Lair. If you even think they are rehash you have to think that all bosses are rehashes because if we kill boss X then killing boss Y is a rehash since you already killed a boss, killing another is no different. Classic Dungeons are something players wants. Naxxramas was scaled up as a intro raid because so few people in the playerbase had actually done Naxxramas. I myself had been max level for over a year in Vanilla and I didn't even do Naxxramas. Scenarios is not a rehash, it is small group quests you can do with a random group. Similarly to you doing lots of quest in the outdoor, or would you consider those rehashes because many quests are in the same area?

[Darsithis]

Okay, something i've noticed as im sure many of you have is that Blizzard has a known history to rehash much of the content they previously worked on. Some notable examples:

• Dragon Soul (almost entire instance was a rehash)
• Zul'Gurub (rehash of the 20 man raid)
• Zul'Aman (rehash of the 10 man raid)
• Naxxaramus 2.0 (a literal copy and paste from vanilla naxx for wrath progression content)
• Scholomance (rehash of the classic dungeon)
• Shadowfang keep (rehash of the classic dungeon)
• Deadmines (rehash of the classic dungeon)
• Seige of Orgrimmar (literally 50% of the raid was previous out door world environments)
• Scenarios (many of them a rehash of an already outdoor open environment)
• Onyxia (a copy and paste to Wrath updated to 80)
• Black wing descent (rehashed Nefarian, Re-Rehashed Onyxia)

Now this list even surprises me as a long time fan of the franchise. It looks like a whole expansion could have been made from this. At what point does the rehashing become unacceptable to you? Or, is it okay that they continue this trend, and will likely continue it even into WoD?

Dragon Soul had some re-used assets because they made sense. It took place, after all, in Wyrmrest Temple, the seat of power for all of the surviving dragonflights. Where else would you do it? It had to take place on Azeroth and it feels like you'd label it a "rehash" no matter where they stuck it.

ZG and ZA were done supremely and brought back those raids that anyone post classic/TBC never raided anyway for them to enjoy. Scholo, DM, and SFK are all great re-creations that also have their level-appropriate versions still available.

SoO obviously has to take place in Orgrimmar for Christ's sake. Come on. You're invading the damn place. What, were they supposed to design a whole new Orgrimmar that no one has ever seen before and expected people to believe it?

Scenarios. Really? Rehashes? You're just grasping for straws here. At that rate we might as well call anything with lava a rehash of Molten Core. Exodar is a rehash of Tempest Keep (or the other way around). Dragonblight is a rehash of Winterspring. Should I go on?

The rest aren't even worth mentioning.

Will we see original content for the end raid of WoD?

I love the implication that the first raid isn't new or original.

[Kaleredar]

Dragon Soul is the only one I'll give you any sort of "agreement" on there because it could have been a much better raid had it taken place in Grim Batol or somesuch. But that's hardly the only reason Dragon Soul was a bad raid.

All of the others have been addressed by other posters. "Rehashes" aren't a problem as long as they do them well. For instance, the Nexus was a new dungeon, but it sucked. ZG was a "rehashed" dungeon, but it was much more fun than Nexus.

It is hard to say, depends on your original hash algorithm. Generally speaking you lose cohesiveness every single hash, as md5(a) may not be md5(b), but md5(md5(a)) could be md5(md5(b)). In general, avoid having more than one hash if at all possible. Possibly combining multiple hashes into another hash is ok though, as long as the data isn't too similar.

As usual, if security is needed, add salt.

Not sure if serious or...

[jimlow]

I can't fault them for reusing art assets when they say they are going do redo a dungeon. If they didn't do it a lot more people would be upset that it deviated from the original too much.

The great majority of the player base only saw the naxx post WotLK so for all intents an purposes it was new art anyways.

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on rehash and as someone pointed out that's all the "re-hashing" they have done over 10 years...so really it would actually require more effort on my part to be mad at them.

[Blithe]

Naxxramas in my opinion was the only justifiable rehash of content as not many players actually got to see it during Classic. It also made sense for the content, and while Blackwing Descent and Dragon Soul aren't as justified, they're just as interesting and also fitting for the time.

The rest are really annoying, especially Zul'Gurub, Zul'Aman and Scholomance. They should have all stayed the way they were.

[wych]

Dragon Soul had some re-used assets because they made sense. It took place, after all, in Wyrmrest Temple, the seat of power for all of the surviving dragonflights. Where else would you do it? It had to take place on Azeroth and it feels like you'd label it a "rehash" no matter where they stuck it.

It's more of a case of it feeling like it was put there just so that they didn't have to create new environments. DS was an absolute disaster and probably the worst raid they've ever made (at least ToC had the excuse of being filler).

Give Deathwing his own island, with a daily hub on there, boom I just made 4.4 10x better


ZA/ZG were lazy rehashes, particularly ZA.

[Jaylock]

If you're assaulting the capital city of a faction, one would presume that you would not be presented suddenly with an entirely new urban environment. The world is the world. If you're going to have raids or scenarios staged partially or entirely in the world I wouldn't expect to see massive changes as it totally disrupts the story-telling.

The whole idea on which the premise of the expansion was based on, namely, we have to kill Garrosh as the end raid boss was where the flaw was in the first place. I believe that it was this idea that allowed them to be lazy and create yet another rehash raid dungeon like they did with Dragon Soul.

They could have taken the whole corruption thing in an entirely different direction, had us kill or banish the influence that garrosh was being lured by, and then put him in prison, or cast him out as war chief or somehting that could have been much cooler. But no, instead we assult a capital city? Come on now.

[A Chozo]

Dragon Soul had some re-used assets because they made sense. It took place, after all, in Wyrmrest Temple, the seat of power for all of the surviving dragonflights. Where else would you do it? It had to take place on Azeroth and it feels like you'd label it a "rehash" no matter where they stuck it.

ZG and ZA were done supremely and brought back those raids that anyone post classic/TBC never raided anyway for them to enjoy. Scholo, DM, and SFK are all great re-creations that also have their level-appropriate versions still available.

SoO obviously has to take place in Orgrimmar for Christ's sake. Come on. You're invading the damn place. What, were they supposed to design a whole new Orgrimmar that no one has ever seen before and expected people to believe it?

Scenarios. Really? Rehashes? You're just grasping for straws here. At that rate we might as well call anything with lava a rehash of Molten Core. Exodar is a rehash of Tempest Keep (or the other way around). Dragonblight is a rehash of Winterspring. Should I go on?

The rest aren't even worth mentioning.

With OP's logic, Frostfire Ridge is a rehashed Borean Tundra, since there are orcs on both, it's snow'ish-themed...

But I can see why some are frustrated when they see the same landscape again. For me, It's okay on cenarios, since it's the nature of the whole thing; It was okay on SoO, because less than half of the raid actually happens in open-world areas, making sense since the whole objetive is the Siege of the Horde Capital...

But Dragon Soul.
Dragon. Soul.

There's a unusued portal in Grim Batol. It's sealed by gates. I heard somewhere (don't remember where) that the Final Battle against Deathwing would happen in a new part of the instance, but they changed it, and we went to Dragonblight. In that case, they didn't even created a new space for the raid, they used one that existed. Spine and Madness were the only fights that actually took place somewhere "new". The final raid of Cataclysm could have happened in a new place, but we fought the villain on a already-visited space. In my opinion, that didn't bring a good vibe to the player. In this case, I think "rehashing" is... too much. The rehashing of space, the unwelcome rehashing of space.

[Deleted]

I have nothing against rehashing. It makes me feel that world in WoW is a little bit more dynamic and something actually happens in old lands. and doing same dungeons on max lvl that I used to do 28938013129038910 times while leveling all characters would be boring.

[Kaleredar]

Naxxramas in my opinion was the only justifiable rehash of content as not many players actually got to see it during Classic. It also made sense for the content, and while Blackwing Descent and Dragon Soul aren't as justified, they're just as interesting and also fitting for the time.

The rest are really annoying, especially Zul'Gurub, Zul'Aman and Scholomance. They should have all stayed the way they were.

No one but no one did Zul'Aman after BC unless they were doing it for the achievement. Seeing as, in many ways, it remained "the same," but in dungeon form, I really don't see any reason to "keep it." Zul'Gurub only saw life because people were farming it for the mount.

[wych]

No one but no one did Zul'Aman after BC unless they were doing it for the achievement. Seeing as, in many ways, it remained "the same," but in dungeon form, I really don't see any reason to "keep it." Zul'Gurub only saw life because people were farming it for the mount.

There's a difference in that tons of people saw ZA and ZG as current content and had done the bosses, literally less than 1% of players saw Naxxaramas.

[Kaleredar]

There's a difference in that tons of people saw ZA and ZG as current content and had done the bosses, literally less than 1% of players saw Naxxaramas.

I'm actually very dubious that "tons" of people saw either ZA OR ZG when they were "current content."

[wych]

I'm actually very dubious that "tons" of people saw either ZA OR ZG when they were "current content."

In comparison to Naxxaramas, yes they did.

They were entry level raids, Naxxaramas required 40 man raid guilds that had cleared MC, Onyxia, BWL, AQ40. And Naxx wasn't out for too long before TBC, Blizzard said themselves many times how disappointed they were over not many seeing it, which is where the less than 1% comes from.