Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 295 people has been shot down in Ukraine

[Wildtree]

I've read the tweets, and I think they're bullshit. An ATC person probably wouldn't have access to the kind of info he's claiming.

Sounds like Robin Williams deprived of a Snickers.

[Deleted]

It was one of the sources. If you want more, google it.

You posted a website as evidence that frequently claims hoaxes as fact, and allows anyone to publish anything on it.

That's not a source, that's drivel and is treated as such; Back up your statement with credible sources, people have debunked it in this thread numerous times and mainstream press has ignored it.

[Phookah]

I've read the tweets, and I think they're bullshit. An ATC person probably wouldn't have access to the kind of info he's claiming.

Exactly, sounds like the guy is coming to this assumption because the plane was escorted by 2 Kiev planes before it was shot down rather than having any hard evidence.

[MerinPally]

I've read the tweets, and I think they're bullshit. An ATC person probably wouldn't have access to the kind of info he's claiming.

Easy to find out is it not, isn't there someone who posts on this forum regularly who either is/was/involved with Air Traffic Control?Either way I think using a twitter account that was since deleted as a source is completely ridiculous. I was translating some of his tweets last night. He didn't say anything special, they're posted earlier in this thread.

[Megraam]

How pathetic and wrong.



I'm not an Ukrainian army supporter, but here is my take on those questions.

1. As your question stated, it was broken. Maybe it couldn't be moved. We don't know how it was broken.
2. Source for Ukrainian army saying there are no Buk's in possession of the rebels? And in addition, source for saying specifically that there aren't ANY, working or broken, Buk's?
3. Your proof that it is fake? It could be, but there is no proof. If there isn't an Indonesian Thompson university student aboard that plane, then it can be proven as fake.
4. There is no proof of fighters following the plane. Even if there were, there is no proof (or even a clue) of them shooting it down. It's quite obvious as of now that the plane was shot down with a ground-to-air missile.
5. Source for that? Regardless of that, it is quite obvious that Buk's are needed near the war zone and Russian border.

1. Ah, so it was unable to move? Okay, let me try to believe it. Do you know where this base is located?
2. Please re-read the thread. This is the last time I am spoonfeeding you, okay? It was posted here http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/07/18/7032278/ use the google translate for yourself. Please note this is EXTREMELY pro-ukranian government resource, check all other news of them. But even they agree with it (this is just if case if you're going to ask for its credibility).
3. This YT channel is famous for creating fakes, re-read the thread. The file itself was created 1 day before the tragedy.
4. There is: a trusted source from Kiev airport posted it. Please reread the thread. I am not saying they shot it of course. I am asking why Ukraine tries to hide this fact so desperately.
5. It was posted in this thread several times. As I warned you, no more spoonfeeding.

I didn't prove your point? You started off your post by saying "Yea.. let's not talk about Crimea anymore since it's offtopic and we ALL KNOW that it's Russia's anyway." It's like a four year old little girl putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "I said it last and can't hear you NANA!" It's childish and we all see what you tried to do there. Next, you posed the same questions for the past several pages looking for people to answer them. Nobody is going to go down that route with you because they're OBVIOUSLY biased. You're looking for answers that nobody has, and, when nobody can answer them, you'll use it to further back your point. Similar questions could be posed to you about anything Russian, and you'd pawn it off as nation bashing and Russian pride.

As I said, I have been reading this thread for a very long time. Your arguments are nothing but emotionally driven and full of flaws. You have no facts to support anything that you claim, and the only time people don't have a response for you is when you pose questions that nobody, including yourself, has answers to. Your contribution to this thread has been lacking since you arrived in it, and you've only gone further to fuel and flame the arguments that have led to this thread being derailed several times. We get it: you like Russia. We definitely got that a long time ago. Take your zealotry elsewhere because nobody actually cares about it.

Sorry your post is completely overridden by guys above you. They have answers: however, their answers are wrong. Your ad hominem attack is completely wrong as well: I don't bash any nation, I have asked people of this thread to be civil and polite to each other several times giving them examples how rude people is going to get banned, I've asked you to stay on topic and not to derail the thread to Crimea again (I've made some post on Crimea myself and I am sorry for this actually).

This is so ironic it hurts.

You pull your questions out of thin air, we don't answer them because we don't have evidence and neither do you so the fact you're asking them is ridiculous to begin with. You don't have evidence for your claims, and your jingoism is showing. Discussion with you is like headbutting a brick wall and slightly less productive, because your pro russia hardon prevents your brain from functioning.

Your questions have answerss and/or are pure speculation on your part with no evidence to even warrant asking them. If we make up questions about Russia, you going to try and prove them?

My questions contain proven facts as statements. Re-read the thread please and don't be so ignorant.

1. Well, the equipment was at a military base that has been overrun by the rebels.
2. Whether it was functional or broken is imo unclear. The claims contradict each other, and often even the claims from the same source.
I would argue how it could very well have been a protective lie by the Ukrainians to not cause any kind of panic amongst it's people. It's a scary thought, and an embarrassing situation on top, having to admit how the other side just seized some serious powerful weaponry from you.
Points 3 - 5 are speculations, or even outright false.

1. So why have they removed all operational Buks from it then? And left this one there?
2. I am yet to see a claim it was operational. No one said this. Remember, contradicting claims both belong to Ukranian military, so they are lying no matter the truth is. Why have they told rebels didn't ever have it after the tragedy?
3. This youtube account is known for making fakes: check the thread when it was posted. The date of the video shows it was created one day before the tragedy.
4. This is a claim from spanish radar. Twitter of guy who was in Ukraine airport while seeing it was deleted today supposedly because of a hack to remove evidence.
5. This is a proven fact as well. Check the first 10 (I believe) pages of this thread.

[Bolson13]

The Netherlands aren't the EU.... There are EU members that do in fact NEED Russian gas..... Germany for example.
Stop trying to be delusional now.
Never in our modern worlds recent history was it possible to stop using crucial resources from a source.
We've been through the oil crisis in the 70s... We have a slight dent in the current oil situation due to the middle east conflicts. We need this shit, one way or another. And we also need Russia's Natural gas.
We cannot enter embargo's that cost us in the end some half trillion dollars or something... That creates hardship on our own populations.
Job losses what not....
Sorry, no that's not how it works, just to satisfy some Russia/Putin haters.

If you would have been following the discussion, it was about the Netherlands and Russia. When i said that Russia needs Europe as a customer and food provider just as much as Europe needs Russia for their gas, the other poster noted how he specifically meant The Netherlands and Russia. So perhaps read before you comment.

And yes, Russia indeed needs Europe as much as Europe needs Russia.

[Dezerte]

It was one of the sources. If you want more, google it.

The onus is on you to provide credible sources if you want the claim to be taken seriously. But come on, try reading some of the other articles on that website - I think you'll find that it's about as credible as this.

[bclumas]

Sorry your post is completely overridden by guys above you. They have answers: however, their answers are wrong. Your ad hominem attack is completely wrong as well: I don't bash any nation, I have asked people of this thread to be civil and polite to each other several times giving them examples how rude people is going to get banned, I've asked you to stay on topic and not to derail the thread to Crimea again (I've made some post on Crimea myself and I am sorry for this actually).

Do you just not read what you reply to? At no point have I done any nation bashing. What I said was that when people make claims AGAINST you, that YOU claim nation bashing and show your Russian pride. Take a look at the sentences before you respond. Also, I'm not talking about Crimea; I never have. I just pointed out how your cute little reply just shows how truly delusional you are. You're not a saint, and you haven't done anything in this thread besides incite people. Go back to doing what I have been doing for 90+ pages -- Lurking. Come back when you have legitimate information to add rather than conjecture and sideways evidence.

[Wildtree]

And yes, Russia indeed needs Europe as much as Europe needs Russia.

Then you and I have nothing to argue lol
I was just in the believe this is again about the false assumption how we can just eloquently deprive Russia of all business. Some people think that way, and it's a false assumption. We'd hurt ourselves more than we'd hurt Russia.

[alkyd]

You posted a website as evidence that frequently claims hoaxes as fact, and allows anyone to publish anything on it.

That's not a source, that's drivel and is treated as such; Back up your statement with credible sources, people have debunked it in this thread numerous times and mainstream press has ignored it.

Nevertheless we have to take into consideration all sources. Not only the 'mainstream' media which are known to be biased toward one or another side, which makes this kind of media even less credible.

[Ulmita]

If you would have been following the discussion, it was about the Netherlands and Russia. When i said that Russia needs Europe as a customer and food provider just as much as Europe needs Russia for their gas, the other poster noted how he specifically meant The Netherlands and Russia. So perhaps read before you comment.

And yes, Russia indeed needs Europe as much as Europe needs Russia.

No the other poster meant European Union and since you mentioned Netherlands, i replied to that too. And again, Russia can find food elsewhere, EE needs Russian gas. Also, go check the latest Ru-China gas deal and the new pipes that will be getting build next few months.
There is nothing more to it.

[Reeve]

MH17 is a far less inspiring name than Lusitania.

[Orange Joe]

Nevertheless we have to take into consideration all sources. Not only the 'mainstream' media which are known to be biased toward one or another side, which makes this kind of media even less credible.

Is that why you immediately dismiss anything that doesn't go along with your view of things?

[MerinPally]

Nevertheless we have to take into consideration all sources. Not only the 'mainstream' media which are known to be biased toward one or another side, which makes this kind of media even less credible.

No you absolutely don't, that is absolute fucking bullshit. You absolutely do not take into account conspiracists and fringe sites and people who are bias.

[Zigzagzoom]

Nevertheless we have to take into consideration all sources. Not only the 'mainstream' media which are known to be biased toward one or another side, which makes this kind of media even less credible.

Websites that capitalize on the tinfoil wearers and alien abduction supporters with the occasional Elvis sitings thrown in are for for the Lols and no one takes them seriously try again.

[Deleted]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ight-MH17.html

A BuK launcher was moved into town several hours before the launch, it was set up, it launched a missile or two at MH17, and was seen today being hauled back across the Russian boarder. #caseclosed

Yeah sure and they didn't even bother to cover them so everyone can see and record them on camera, not to speak moving them in the middle the of day on a large road... I rather belive in Santa then in such nonsence.

[NYC17]

Nevertheless we have to take into consideration all sources. Not only the 'mainstream' media which are known to be biased toward one or another side, which makes this kind of media even less credible.

Pointing out that your source and claims seem to stem from pure, undistilled bullshit does not mean they weren't taken into consideration. They have been considered and deemed lacking at best.

The credibility of "mainstream media" may be questionable to some, and that's fine. What isn't fine is taking that and declaring every source now has instant credibility.

[Megraam]

Go back to doing what I have been doing for 90+ pages -- Lurking. Come back when you have legitimate information to add rather than conjecture and sideways evidence.

Please proceed with your own advice. If everything you were able to do after lurking it is posing some ad hominem attacks (being offtopic), it is not good for this thread at all. We are trying to make a conversation here, not throwing the dirt in each other.
I do not intend to answer to you or quote you any further since you are making me to offtop as well which I'd like to avoid. Please do the same (and yeah, hope you will be back to lurking).

[alkyd]

Is that why you immediately dismiss anything that doesn't go along with your view of things?

And what did I dismiss?

Edit: Oh god, one small post that discredits Kiev and I get eaten alive by piranhas

[Cairhiin]

Russia taking distance?

17:50: Alexander Nekrasov says there is a perception in the West that Russia has control over all Ukrainian separatists. "It's not as simple as that," he says. "There are many groupings there that have their own agendas and supplies of arms." Some of the Ukrainian troops have switched sides and are fighting on the side of separatists, he argues.

17:48: Former Kremlin adviser Alexander Nekrasov: "The Buk system consists of four vehicles [and] two radars. You really have to be professional to control it. So the suspicion is that it might either be some renegade unit within the Ukrainian army, or a renegade unit among the so-called separatists."