WoD Beta Demonology Discussion

[Alarinth]

I think I decided what needs to happen.

- Replace Cataclysm the talent with something truly passive.
- Make Cataclysm baseline for Demo as a centrepiece for ranged AoE rotation.

From a balance perspective, purely about numbers and spreadsheets, this makes sense. However, this spell is supersentric for Destruction I think. Doesn't strike me at all as a demonology-spell, as much as it does Destruction.

[DesireKT]

It's going to be hard to make it an AoE ability on a long CD without making it part of single target rotation. If it was truly for AoE I wouldn't want to to be viable on less than 3 targets but that's probably just me, but at that point it's not much better than our lackluster AoE we already have (aside from being able to cast at a target).

Aside from the possible Demonbolt changes I mentioned earlier they could also go with a stacking buff that increased Haste or Mastery or some stat by 200-500 per stack to give it more of a possible rotational value. It could be a 45 second buff (or less depending on how the debuff averages out in length) so that with good weapon or trinket procs there's a chance you could extend the buff from one "Demonbolt Phase" into the next. It's unlikely you would be able to regularly chain these buffs back to back, but given the normal rotation of 1 minute burns you would be able to have 45 out of every 60 seconds with an extra stat buff.

You could try to permanently extend the buff by casting a new Demonbolt just before your buff expired, but without letting the debuff reset it wouldn't be very advisable as you'd be spending large chunks of fury after 3-4 casts and basically unable to recast after probably 6 because you can't generate enough fury to cast a 7th time before the buff falls off. Actual fury generation in combat single target AoE and multitarget would actually change the value of Demonbolt in this version because the extra Fury generation would let you extend the buff longer. It might actually let it somewhat compete in encounters with mixed styles of combat.

Comparatively now Cataclysm is always better no matter what. I honestly don't know if I'd like something like this or them just changing the values of Demonbolt like I mentioned before so that you are able to cast 5-6 in a row before Soul Fire becomes better. I'm leaning towards 5-6 casts and being able to use extra Soul Fire charges in caster form like I suggested before.

[Jetjaguar]

No thoughts on Servitude? It's massively underpowered and the only spec it could be viable for is affliction. And I'm using "viable" very loosely. They have the opportunity to make the Servitude pets grant a very high amount of fury generation to compensate for not having a felguard or the other two talents and I feel like that is the way to go if you want a passive talent. I'm curious to see the numbers on fury generation from an Infernal/Doomguard vs a regular pet but I have a hunch it's really not a big upgrade.

Demonbolt is a complete mess though. The debuff is extremely punishing for something that doesn't even hit as hard as Chaos bolt

[Jessicka]

My thoughts on Servitude are that it simply isn't passive, it replaces my pets of 7 years, my 10 min cooldown, and offers nothing extra in return; especially not for Demo. Replacing the signature Demo pet just makes it worse.

On cataclysm as baseline for Demo as ranged AE, obviously it would need toning down and the cooldown shortening. As long as it still applied Doom or (and?) Corruption it would be enough I think. At present, Demo AE is using way too many keystroke a and takes way too long to set up as the burst it deals, it's completely backward.

[Beris]

On cataclysm as baseline for Demo as ranged AE, obviously it would need toning down and the cooldown shortening. As long as it still applied Doom or (and?) Corruption it would be enough I think. At present, Demo AE is using way too many keystroke a and takes way too long to set up as the burst it deals, it's completely backward.

Something that isn't spam able isn't a bad thing. on all of the testing from beta raids Cataclysm's CD usually can be timed in accordance to mechanics. Holding onto the right cataclysm usage is quite huge I've noticed. It also depends on what is being burst down, Chaos wave is still a great alternative for a mass of adds that die before HoG can ware off. The Demonology tool set is in amazing place. You have to tailor the moves to the fight.

What really needs to happen to tinker with demonology is imp swarm being unnerfed, or allowed to function with any of the grimoires (Supremecy for Fel imps to spawn, Service for more imps?, Synergy to work with the imps).

[DesireKT]

The problem I see with them balancing Servitude at the moment is the fact that it's a 100% copy of the 10 minute CD spells. In order to balance out the DPS loss of not having a 10 minute CD they have to make them all new separate pets for Servitude that have their own separate damage modifiers compared to the CD's. Because as it stands right now any buffs they do to Servitude pets in turn buffs the damage of the CD versions as well. Which is ironic because now CD Doomguard/Infernal generate Fury for their duration. I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen on live and didn't happy in any build prior to them adding Fury to those pet attacks.

So they really only have two options to balance that section. Add Doomguards/Infernals to the pet fly out menu allowing you to summon them as permanent pets while still allowing them to keep the CD versions. They don't need to change anything about them aside from probably buff the damage to be better than regular demons. This would keep Servitude balanced with the other two talents because they no longer lose the 10 minute CD.

Second option is to make the Servitude pets completely different than the CD ones. This way they can have different scaling coefficients to allow the pets not only to be better than baseline pets but add in the lost damage from not having 10minute cd's. This could also be done with additional buffs that are given to the summoned pet after you summon it and a few other various ways but this makes the most sense and easiest thing to be able to manage in the future.

At the moment I do not see either of these options being used to correctly balance the level 100 tier and expect Servitude pets will inherently be better than basic pets to balance the DPS compared to the other two 100 talents, but they won't give compensation for the loss of a 10minute CD.

Also it would be nice to see Infernal/Doomguard added to Grimoire of Service and I think it's odd that hasn't been done yet. Potentially Doomguard/Service Doomguard could be pretty strong if they balanced the 100 tier properly by increasing Servitude pets damage. Service Infernal would just come in like the CD version does causing a Meteor Strike as its special attack landing on the target while the Doomguard can instantly silence then start tossing out Doombolts.

- - - Updated - - -

Something that isn't spam able isn't a bad thing. on all of the testing from beta raids Cataclysm's CD usually can be timed in accordance to mechanics. Holding onto the right cataclysm usage is quite huge I've noticed. It also depends on what is being burst down, Chaos wave is still a great alternative for a mass of adds that die before HoG can ware off. The Demonology tool set is in amazing place. You have to tailor the moves to the fight.

What really needs to happen to tinker with demonology is imp swarm being unnerfed, or allowed to function with any of the grimoires (Supremecy for Fel imps to spawn, Service for more imps?, Synergy to work with the imps).

Wild Imps are scaling with mastery they just don't snapshot it but you can see the damage change by adding and removing Mastery buffs while they are shooting. They really need to fix the spawning bugs and attacking bugs so we can actually see how good/bad they are. We can at least use the Glyph now.

It would be nice to see them scale with the Grimoire talents, but that seems a bit problematic and possibly overkill. Fury generation would get really high from the first 2 talents and Synergy/Imp Swarm Glyph would be extremely high burst especially when timed with trinkets/cd's. At the very least it would be nice if they increased the chance for the Synergy to proc on the Warlock, but gaining the damage buff is a lot.

[Keltas]

Why not replace cataclysm with Twisting Nether for demo?
http://www.hearthhead.com/card=859/twisting-nether
Pulls all creatures in and deals X damage a second for 3 seconds. Damage is equal to what cataclysm would've done. (bosses are immune to the pull in, but not the damage) Applies doom/corruption to everything it hit.

It would be almost the same spell, except have a fun little pull-in for pvp, and would be a little more thematically different for demo.

[Nivrax]

Honestly I would love if they simply remove 10 min cooldown versions altogether. Back when they were doing decent damage (Cata), it felt bad having so much dps tied to 10 min cd. Now that they were toned down, I don't feel they really offer anything meaningful, it's just like 2 Chaos Bolts with 0 buffs as dot over 45 seconds. They hardly qualify as 'burst' cd either, it's just something you press at fight start and forget it. They serve exact same role as Grimoire of Service right now. I'm surprised they weren't 'pruned' yet, especially that they take two spell slots.

[Jessicka]

Why not replace cataclysm with Twisting Nether for demo?
http://www.hearthhead.com/card=859/twisting-nether
Pulls all creatures in and deals X damage a second for 3 seconds. Damage is equal to what cataclysm would've done. (bosses are immune to the pull in, but not the damage) Applies doom/corruption to everything it hit.

It would be almost the same spell, except have a fun little pull-in for pvp, and would be a little more thematically different for demo.

Not allowed any more CC, is basically why that won't happen.

Spelt out clearly why Demo AoE is a mess at the moment over on Beta forums
_________________

Why Demonology's AoE is a shambles
For one "too many buttons"


Dark Soul (Glyphed)
Hand of Gul'dan
Service Felguard
Imp Swarm
Couple of ticks of Hellfire
Hand of Gul'dan
Metamorphosis
Cataclysm
Mannoroth's Fury
Immolation Aura
Felstorm


Secondly, how long did that take?
1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 3 + 1.5 + 3 = 12 seconds, probably nearer 13 adding in the things off the GCD, before we're into Immolation. 10 seconds and 11 keystrokes seconds before we're rolling. AoE stuff is dead by that time.

And all that has to happen in melee range. And can only happen once per minute, outside that there's Hellfire, which does nothing.

How did we get to this point? It needs fixing.

I suggested over at MMO-C that Cataclysm as a talent could be replaced with something more passive, maybe even ST, and Cataclysm the spell instead be used baseline by Demonology as a basis for a much cleaner ranged AoE rotation.

[Lovestar]

My thoughts on Servitude are that it simply isn't passive, it replaces my pets of 7 years, my 10 min cooldown, and offers nothing extra in return; especially not for Demo. Replacing the signature Demo pet just makes it worse.

My thoughts exactly. @CT keeps touting DemServ as the easy, simple talent if you don't like the complication of the other two.

Except it isn't, because:

• Infernals are ugly and dumb (yes, they look great summoned once a fight as a background object or in the Vanilla cinematic... not when they're following you around like a puppy 24/7)
• Doomguards are bland and boring (again, they look great as a temporary "I HAVE A GIANT DEMON" ... not when they're out permanently standing around slooooowly casting)
• When I talent Supremacy, I want to see my cool flashy demons, not ... an orange Infernal and a Doomguard that fell out of Capcom's DarkStalkers circa 2001.
• When I don't talent Supremacy, I want a reason to use the classic demons, not two underwhelming Swiss Army Demons.
• I love my Felguard and I want my Felguard and my backpack full of his swords, maces, and mining picks and watching him charge up and carve things to pieces on command.

Final Verdict changes almost nothing fundamental about your Paladin's visuals. Thermal Void doesn't force your Water Elemental to turn into a Whale Shark. Adaptation doesn't only apply if you're using either a Direhorn or a Clefthoof. Defile doesn't uncontrollably turn your Ghoul into Professor Putricide.

I feel like a lot of the "systems" team doesn't really quite understand the non-mathematical / non-rotational aspects of WoW's appeal. This isn't a slight on their capabilities, but @GC had the same problem — he seemed to have trouble fully-grasping conceptual, RP, cosmetic, etc. concerns which, ironically, are some of the things which allowed WoW to grow so aggressively in appeal.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when @CT refers to DemServ as "the passive talent" (or similarly), he's mostly-right in a pure isolated gameplay sense. But completely, totally missing the point by a kilometer in every other sense.

You can't just pick DemServ and move on as if nothing happened to your character, unlike other cop-out talents, because (for Demo especially) your Demons are a part of your Lock, as much as your transmog or spell animations.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

I don't understand why Servitude pets have to be separate from normal pets. When they announced the talent, I originally imagined it as a permanent guardian pet that you'd have in addition to your usual pet. This would allow you to still have your Felguard or sacrifice another pet and then they wouldn't need to worry about adding utility to the Doomguard or Infernal.

[Lovestar]

Exactly! I'd be all over Servitude if it just made the Guardians not expire. That would be simple, and cool.

Trying to turn them into superpets that replace everything else feels so gratuitous and unnecessary.

[Zathrendar]

The issue I have with Demonic Servitude is that, although the Doomguard/Terrorguard is good for PVP functionality, it still replaces your other pets, which in turn provide their own integral functionality. In the end, the PVP functionality that the DG does provide is limited and wrapped into most other (non-warlock) specs one way or another, without needing this level of expenditure, and requires the sacrifice of other abilities (such as interrupts), so it's not a huge gain in any way, shape or form. This isn't an issue in and of itself, but when you consider that you have to talent it and that it synergises with other talents in particular, it does limit your options, for a level 100 talent that isn't that awe inspiring.

This, all in addition the fact that Cataclysm and Demonbolt both look better, although I am still a bit confused by the design intention of Demonbolt, what with it now being a poor clone of Arcane Blast.

- - - Updated - - -

Why not replace cataclysm with Twisting Nether for demo?
http://www.hearthhead.com/card=859/twisting-nether
Pulls all creatures in and deals X damage a second for 3 seconds. Damage is equal to what cataclysm would've done. (bosses are immune to the pull in, but not the damage) Applies doom/corruption to everything it hit.

It would be almost the same spell, except have a fun little pull-in for pvp, and would be a little more thematically different for demo.

Yes, it's a nice mechanic. A bit like the Gravity Well concept put forward for arcane mages, and how I expected Supernova (for that spec) to function, but as this concept isn't being utilised for Mages, and is thematically similar to Cataclysm anyway, it could be a nice modification of it for this spec.

[Deleted]

Exactly! I'd be all over Servitude if it just made the Guardians not expire. That would be simple, and cool.

Trying to turn them into superpets that replace everything else feels so gratuitous and unnecessary.

well, our doomguard guardians are cast capped at 18ish shadowbolts, not much point in having them stand still doing nothing for the duration of a fight atleast not as long as they are cast capped.

[jackvii]

At the moment I do not see either of these options being used to correctly balance the level 100 tier and expect Servitude pets will inherently be better than basic pets to balance the DPS compared to the other two 100 talents, but they won't give compensation for the loss of a 10minute CD.

Currently that's not even the case, Servitude and standard pets with or without Supremacy are doing the same dps within 100 of each other.

Both the Fel Imp and Terrorguard pulled about 1.3-1.4k dps in all my tests for about 6 minutes.

[Skayth]

Honestly, Servitude should simply add a second pet for us, so we have our felguard/wrathguard out and Doomguard/terrorguard as well. With servitude as it is, and if they actually, and correctly, play the numbers games to have inf/abys aoe better than fel/wraths aoe and doom/terror single target better than our regular, what is the point of the Felguard being demonology only at this point?

And, our aoe stacking is insane now, to the point our aoe will be nerfed because of these talents. They need to change mannoroths fury, at least. They need to make our aoe ranged. But hey, they are not going to listen to common sense. Hell, I watched jessika's us beta posts get downvoted, even though they point out these things. They will not reply to anything of the sort on twitter, even though I think blues should simply keep off twitter and keep their life in the forums, and actually address the community.

The entirety of our lvl 90 and lvl 100 talents just suck for Demo. AD was a quick fix during mop, as AV was bad design and noone took it, unless they wanted to gimp the fights (until it was "fixed") by making the healer pay. KJC has become crap for demo, and is still pretty bad in wod. MF is just bad design now, and add cd stacking. Demonbolt is garbage, and think it is an abomination of a creation and should be throughly destroyed. (yay arcane blast for demonology O.o). Cataclysm adds to AoE stacking. Servitude is garbage, and makes our spec only pets irrelevant (if they get the number correctly done, which I doubt). These two tiers need to be redesigned thoroughly and have no synergy with each other. They are very niche for 90 and 100 to the point it becomes either cd stacking or arcane blast with ad.

The two tiers are garbage in design... with 100 Serv just being lazy as hell for us, and demonbolt being bad design from the get go.

[DesireKT]

Currently that's not even the case, Servitude and standard pets with or without Supremacy are doing the same dps within 100 of each other.

Both the Fel Imp and Terrorguard pulled about 1.3-1.4k dps in all my tests for about 6 minutes.

I know that which is why I said when they balance the level 100 tier they have to be better than regular pets or selecting Servitude is not an option in any situation.

[Jetjaguar]

Calling them 10 min CDs is giving them more credit than they deserve. They're all of 2% of your damage nowadays, nothing like they were back in Cata and I think it would be easy for blizzard to buff the fury generation and pet damage by a significant enough portion that it could make up for the loss in the 10 min CD. They've shown they don't have problems with specs that talent for insane resource generation with talents like Charred Remains and Auspicious Spirits

[DesireKT]

They problem with just buffing them is any buff they give Doomguard/Terrorguard and Infernal/Abyssal also affects the CD version so it's impossible for them to make up the DPS loss of the 10 minute CD's because they get buffed as well. That's why I said they need to separate them into different pets so they can properly balance them.

Just wait more ability pruning incoming! Doomguard and Infernal 10 Minute CD's are removed. If you want to play with them use Servitude.

[Zathrendar]

They'd be worthwhile as a second pet. As a replacement for your main pet, however, I wouldn't bother with them. Besides, Wrathguards, being Eredar, are already at the pinnacle of demonic power, especially compared to abyssals which are mere constructs, or terrorguards which are lesser demons.