Do you actually enjoy the current state of shadow?

[Aere]

That's #3 rank on US/EU 25H WoL, the priest does have insanity and it accounts for less than 1% of his damage.

/facepalm - you linked the wrong priest.
The priest (I guess you intended to link?) has 2.7% uptime on Insanity.
Same priest - same raid - Garrosh - Same Talents - 5.44% uptime on Insanity.

Yes there are variables on each fight.
Do you really think that a difference of 2.74% is that big of a factor? Especially when you're also factoring the fact that protectors generally has more aoe and multi dotting elements in it than Garrosh in which you wouldn't want to Insanity because it is a dps loss - In fact you wouldn't use any level 45 talent with the exception of mindbender before the event happened.

[BalkothWarcraft]

You can't simply "forget everyone else's numbers" If you're using it as a comparison tool. You give an example of you doing 400k, where the rest of the group is doing considerably less of what they should be doing - it really achieves nothing. You still should've used a better example of medians for the classes in general - not your own personal logs to prove a point - especially when the other people in the log aren't performing close to where they should be. or atleast on the same level as you.

Are you trying to misinterpret what I said or something? You absolutely CAN forget everyone else's numbers, what we care about is the fact I did 400k to Garrosh specifically. Doesn't matter if everyone else in the group sucked and did 150k, the point is that if you're on Garrosh and doing 200k single target damage the problem is YOU, not shadow priests. We're not comparing that 400k to anyone else here.

In regards to ACTUAL comparisons to other classes (which, again, was NOT what was being done previously), do YOU know of a resource that tracks damage to Garrosh specifically in p2 and p3? I sure don't, and looking at the fight overall is completely worthless, we're looking at the single target burn phases of the fight where DPS matters the most.

I'm trying to fight against stuff like the below quote -- his DPS on Garrosh isn't terrible because he's Shadow, it's terrible because he's not playing correctly. He still shouldn't/won't do the most to Garrosh, but if he's getting doubled on damage it's not due to Shadow (not that he's actually claiming Shadow is to blame, but I've seen others blame it).

Yeah, I enjoy playing shadow a lot. I can't dps for shit, but I love it...for instance, my garrosh dps is god awful.

[Shaiandra]

As someone who doesn't main a Spriest and just plays one as an alt... number tuning issues aside, I enjoy the spec as long as I'm not using Insanity or simply spamming Mind Sear.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Insanity were frequently the strongest talent in the tier since it also has the most drawbacks (and risk should result in reward).. But I personally can't stand it. I just don't like having to commit multiple GCDs in a row. (That's also why I quit playing Lancer/Dragoon in FFXIV...)

[Setheria]

I'm trying to fight against stuff like the below quote -- his DPS on Garrosh isn't terrible because he's Shadow, it's terrible because he's not playing correctly. He still shouldn't/won't do the most to Garrosh, but if he's getting doubled on damage it's not due to Shadow (not that he's actually claiming Shadow is to blame, but I've seen others blame it).

Shadow's weakness is often overstated, but it can equally be masked by other players not playing to their potential.

But anyway, this tier is over, has been for a while. There's no value in repeating the flaws with shadow's output when there's no possible benefit other than perhaps letting off steam.

What matters more is feedback on beta, or feedback about our playstyle.

Re the Insanity vs others discussion, I think finding one (or even more than one) amongst the overwhelming majority of Insanity logs where the uptime isn't stellar doesn't detract from it's potential.

We're left in the position of either providing advise for non-optimal play assuming people cannot (and most 'average' raiders, quite clearly can't) maintain dots and use insanity well, or we suggest insanity with the caveat that on the 2 first bosses (but certainly not the remaining 12) might find mediocre players getting comparable or even better results with other choices.

But honestly, what a mountain out of a mole hill. Should we really shape our advise to aspiring spriests on the first 2 encounters of a tier when the results are at best 'mixed' and assume lack of competence in maintaining insanity uptime?

[Regen]

I'm trying to fight against stuff like the below quote -- his DPS on Garrosh isn't terrible because he's Shadow, it's terrible because he's not playing correctly. He still shouldn't/won't do the most to Garrosh, but if he's getting doubled on damage it's not due to Shadow (not that he's actually claiming Shadow is to blame, but I've seen others blame it).

Yeah, I said I can't dps because I'm aware that it's me.

[BalkothWarcraft]

Yeah, I said I can't dps because I'm aware that it's me.

Er, yes, I know, and the section you quoted specifically acknowledges that.

(not that he's actually claiming Shadow is to blame, but I've seen others blame it)

[Kanariya]

No, this expansion has been my least favorite for Shadow. I miss when Mind Blast nuked targets, our DoTs were lethal and orbs didn't exist. Thankfully they're much less gimmicky now than back in Cata with our throttled periodic damage. I do miss Shadow Weaving as a debuff (though I know buff was a big qol improvement), VE being a curse and healing the entire group for a crapton and my favorite talent, Blackout.

At least we have 0 mana issues now I guess.

[Nestar]

/facepalm - you linked the wrong priest.
The priest (I guess you intended to link?) has 2.7% uptime on Insanity.
Same priest - same raid - Garrosh - Same Talents - 5.44% uptime on Insanity.

Yes there are variables on each fight.
Do you really think that a difference of 2.74% is that big of a factor? Especially when you're also factoring the fact that protectors generally has more aoe and multi dotting elements in it than Garrosh in which you wouldn't want to Insanity because it is a dps loss - In fact you wouldn't use any level 45 talent with the exception of mindbender before the event happened.

If he's got that low uptime from insanity, he would have done even higher damage with Mind Bender. As pointed out earlier, that fight was a rank 1 no matter what talent he took in that row.

[Aere]

If he's got that low uptime from insanity, he would have done even higher damage with Mind Bender. As pointed out earlier, that fight was a rank 1 no matter what talent he took in that row.

I don't know where you are getting "rank 1 regardless of talent" from. But yes. Considering his low Insanity uptime due to being able to mind sear for longer, mindbender would have been better in this case.

It looks like he was neglecting to Insanity in favor of mind searing all three protectors. The other spriests did not.

[Dierdre]

It looks like he was neglecting to Insanity in favor of mind searing all three protectors. The other spriests did not.

And still he ranked. So mindbender would be superior. Because he ranked. All hail mindbender.

Flawed logic is flawed.

[Aere]

And still he ranked. So mindbender would be superior. Because he ranked. All hail mindbender.

Flawed logic is flawed.

He didn't do as well as he could have.

You originally said that FDCL was best - you didn't even mention mindbender

Same for protectors, you'll get more damage out of keeping DoTs up on every target than from your filler spells. You'll barely have space to keep DoTs up and spend your FDCL procs, let alone spending 4 GCDs on MFI.

Is this not correct;

Mindflay per Tick: 1049 + 50% SP
Mindsear per Tick: 303 + 30% SP
MS on 2 per Tick: 606 + 60% SP
MS on 3 per tick: 909 + 90% SP
Insanity per tick: 1049 + 50% SP x2

It means he shouldn't have neglected Insanity when there were only 3 targets up. Especially when He jumps around and you can't mind sear him anyway.

I can't find the scaling on Mindbender but it would have to be greater than the difference between Insanity and MS on 3 per tick minus shadowfiend.
You also have to take into account that because of the fight duration - in a 3min fight you would get 2 Shadowfiends and only 4 mindbenders.

[Dierdre]

You originally said that FDCL was best - you didn't even mention mindbender

Sorry, I missed the /sarcasm. I was just pointing out how flawed it is to say "X is superior because Y players ranked with it" when X has little to do with them ranking.

- - - Updated - - -

It means he shouldn't have neglected Insanity when there were only 3 targets up.

It would be better to use it then, yes. While FDCL allows you to use your filler optimally when you have to use your filler throughout the entire fight. Because the bulk of your damage on that fight comes from appropiately managing your DoTs, not from your filler spells.

[Aere]

It would be better to use it then, yes. While FDCL allows you to use your filler optimally when you have to use your filler throughout the entire fight. Because the bulk of your damage on that fight comes from appropiately managing your DoTs, not from your filler spells.

I'm not very good at this but.. assume you have these

Mindsear per Tick: 303 + 30% SP
MS on 2 per Tick: 606 + 60% SP
MS on 3 per tick: 909 + 90% SP
MS on 4 per tick: 1212 + 120% SP
Insanity per tick: 1049 + 50% SP x2
Mind Spike per cast 1340+ 130.4% SP x1.5

but because insanity and mind sear tick every 0.67 seconds, we can make it 2 seconds which is 2 globals on mind spike
MS on 3 per tick: 909 + 90% SP x3
Insanity per tick: 1049 + 50% SP x2 x3
Mind Spike per cast 1340+ 130.4% SP x1.5(FDCL) x2
Lets just assume 50k spellpower

MS on 3 per tick: 137727
Insanity per tick: 156294
Mind Spike per cast: 195600

Now - Remember that Mastery doesn't affect Mind Spike nor is it guaranteed to always be available from the start as a filler.

12000 mastery rating is almost 50% mastery. Which is extremely achievable.

MS on 3 per tick: 137727 x1.5 = 206590.5
Insanity per tick: 156294 x1.5 = 234441
Mind Spike per cast: 195600

You'd have to dump so much mastery in to crit to even make it worth using FDCL - and i'm pretty sure you don't want to have too much of one secondary over the other and it would destroy your swp and VT damage. Which as you said are our main damage.

Mindbender is fine for Protectors as long as you can guarantee that you'll have lots of mind sear damage for the majority of the fight.

[sarecho]

shadow now is an aberration. they gave up trying to fix what shadow really was and turned it into a lock/mage hybrid spec. it sucks. i hate it. when they change it back to something more like an spriest i'll play it again

[Nestar]

snip

Also worth mentioning, Higher mastery means more procs for FDCL, making it easier to replace all your mind flay casts with Mind Spike.

As far as uptime goes, the less you use mind flay, the better FDCL is in comparison to Insanity. Being able to bank charges on fdcl means every single time you would cast flay, you have a spike available. Rather than having to line up your flays with insanity, which becomes more and more wasteful the less you cast flay.

[Dierdre]

You'd have to dump so much mastery in to crit to even make it worth using FDCL - and i'm pretty sure you don't want to have too much of one secondary over the other and it would destroy your swp and VT damage. Which as you said are our main damage.

Wow. Your understanding of how stats affect your spells and talents is clearly off.

I'll let you do a little experiment so you won't even have to trust me:

1. Unequip your trinkets (to minimize RNG)
2. Try FDCL.
3. Reforge full crit.
4. Try it again.
5. Reforge full mastery.
6. Try it again.
7. Realize how you need to stop following what you read in noxxic and start trying stuff out and understanding how things actually work.

[Swoon]

ITT: People who don't parse talking about what's best for parsing.

[Relapses]

I like the playstyle, I hate the shit damage.

It's better at higher ilvls, but it's still frustrating when I have a 586 Warlock and Mage as well and I know how much lower SPriest's potential for damage is.

[Dharknez]

Shadow Priest since TBC chiming in. The dps was meaningful as being mana battery and vamp healer for tanks. We filled a role and do pretty good damage so it was fun for sure. Rotation wasnt to hard but it was smooth.

As for Wrath CoH was to op to not play in Naxx and Coliseum. But i did play shadow in ICC and it was fun and rotation was the same and felt competitive on a lot of fights because of multi dotting.

Then Comes Cata. I agree with most people that shadow was at its most fun in Cata. The shadow weaving gave a unique play style to the class that let the difference between good and bad shadow priests. You had to recast dots always when you got a buff to keep up the more damge plus recasting right at the end to get the most of the buff and uptime of the most damage. It was real fun to play and could definitely play competitively with all classes if you knew what you were doing and using it to its fullest capabilities.

Then when MoP came out I had high hopes for the combo system cause if they had changed it then they had to have something better. It seems to me that they just changed it to change it. It plays almost the same as before just a few different tweaks. We just did not get enough damage to get with this new kit. And they say if we buff it then you will be to good in multi dot situations. So we fall behind in single target. And yet nothign has been done at all this expansion to correct it. There is no reward for playing better at your class as well. Rotation is nothing out of ordinary and no buffs to manage at a time. Just hope you dont have to move cause you cant cast MF and move. Oh most fights have movement at most of the time. Well hope for MB procs and spam SW:P. To much utility to make us better. Thanks for saying we would be op and yet dont change it so we wouldnt be.


Long rant. Made an account to say this.

[Swoon]

Shadow Priest since TBC chiming in. The dps was meaningful as being mana battery and vamp healer for tanks. We filled a role and do pretty good damage so it was fun for sure. Rotation wasnt to hard but it was smooth.

As for Wrath CoH was to op to not play in Naxx and Coliseum. But i did play shadow in ICC and it was fun and rotation was the same and felt competitive on a lot of fights because of multi dotting.

Then Comes Cata. I agree with most people that shadow was at its most fun in Cata. The shadow weaving gave a unique play style to the class that let the difference between good and bad shadow priests. You had to recast dots always when you got a buff to keep up the more damge plus recasting right at the end to get the most of the buff and uptime of the most damage. It was real fun to play and could definitely play competitively with all classes if you knew what you were doing and using it to its fullest capabilities.

Then when MoP came out I had high hopes for the combo system cause if they had changed it then they had to have something better. It seems to me that they just changed it to change it. It plays almost the same as before just a few different tweaks. We just did not get enough damage to get with this new kit. And they say if we buff it then you will be to good in multi dot situations. So we fall behind in single target. And yet nothign has been done at all this expansion to correct it. There is no reward for playing better at your class as well. Rotation is nothing out of ordinary and no buffs to manage at a time. Just hope you dont have to move cause you cant cast MF and move. Oh most fights have movement at most of the time. Well hope for MB procs and spam SW:P. To much utility to make us better. Thanks for saying we would be op and yet dont change it so we wouldnt be.


Long rant. Made an account to say this.

Well, this is somewhat true I suppose, when you say there is no reward for playing better that isn't... True at all..

There are so many shadow priests who think they can play the class and put the blame on shadow being bad and not them but have.. terrible dot up times, low mind blasts, horrible insanity;DP ratios, complaining about shadows damage when the rotation and class is so simple apparently yet every priest I look at has the same flaws and mistakes.

There really aren't many good spriests and most of the people on these forums are insanely mediocre besides 2-3.

tl;dr; Most people who complain about shadow don't even play shadow properly, we don't do warlock/mage damage but no other class does either and hopefully things even out in the xpac.