Fast & Easy content being preferred

[MoanaLisa]

Many other players are chasing rewards and not having fun.

I started having fun when I stopped chasing what other people said I should be chasing and started to play exactly how I wanted to. It's quite amazing. It requires enough mental strength to understand what you like and then not listen to anyone else that condescends to tell you how you should be or not be liking what you're doing.

[Deleted]

I don't think it's good to force players to be social in order to have fun. It should be the other way round: They need to provide content to cater for people for whom socialising on that level is fun.

The funny thing about multiplayer games is that people aren't expecting a single-player game. they're expecting a game where interaction with other players is encouraged, and where interacting with other players enriches the whole gameplay experience.

But the real problem with WoW is that social/multi-player content is sorely lacking in the game.

We used to have a reasonable balance between social content and asocial/solo content - but the balance has tipped so heavily towards single-player questing and asocial group finder tools, that those who actually want to group up with others on their server or play with their friends are left with some very unappealing and bland options (Oh, yes, you can raid at maximum level.. well that's great if the only thing you want to do is rush to max level and raid, but historically that was always a minority of players...)

Firstly, there's no fun gameplay out in the world for players who enjoy questing in groups. Once upon a time, it would have actually been beneficial players to do the quests in a group, because you'd be able to kill things more quickly and therefore get your quests done faster, which made levelling slightly quicker despite the lower XP-per-mob. In addition, there were always a few group quests in each zone to give grouped players something slightly more challenging (All of which were entirely optional and skippable, but still worth doing, and rewarding for solo players who went to seek help from others).

These days there's nothing appealing about questing with other players; everyone can complete things so trivially quickly and easily on their own, that the group-XP penalty ends up being a hinderance - If anything, questing with other players is more likely to slow you down, and there's certainly nothing anywhere out in the world which actually requires a group.

Secondly, the dungeons don't offer any fun multiplayer or co-operative gameplay - dungeon instances feel like playing a single-player game with other player avatars who may as well be bots for all of the social interaction or teamwork which is actually involved in the content.

In short, WoW's multi-player has been entirely marginalised, and 99% of its content has degenerated into a purely single-player game. Those who actually want a multi-player experience have had nearly all of that content stripped away from them in order to appease those who want to be able to solo everything.

Put simply, WoW was never a very good single player game to begin with, and it never will be either. Anyone who plays a lot of single-player games will tell you that there are dozens of amazing Single-player games out there, with better ones being released all the time, and WoW doesn't come anywhere close to those. It's a multiplayer game which is currently sorely lacking in multiplayer.

[Polarthief]

When did the journey became unimportant vs the goal?

The same time we had literally everything about the journey told to us on the front-page of MMO and alike sites. The same time all mystery of a raid was lost when Fatboss tells us how to beat bosses that aren't even available in the game yet. The same time raiding became next to nothing because of how simple and easy it is with all the hand-holding, even in Heroic.

[Kryos]

MMOs used to reward devoted and skilled people. Now they reward people with no jobs and a lot of free time instead...

Are you joking? Tell me about the big skill you needed to play Ultima Online or Everquest and the many complicated boss fights back then... how many phased and transitions and things to take care of did they have? Oh, it was all about having the right gear... usually crafted.... by GRINDING and having LOTS OF FREE TIME...

- - - Updated - - -

The same time we had literally everything about the journey told to us on the front-page of MMO and alike sites. The same time all mystery of a raid was lost when Fatboss tells us how to beat bosses that aren't even available in the game yet. The same time raiding became next to nothing because of how simple and easy it is with all the hand-holding, even in Heroic.

So about 9 years ago?

[May90]

Are you joking? Tell me about the big skill you needed to play Ultima Online or Everquest and the many complicated boss fights back then... how many phased and transitions and things to take care of did they have? Oh, it was all about having the right gear... usually crafted.... by GRINDING and having LOTS OF FREE TIME...

It is sad that people today see possible difficulty only in "complicated boss fights", "phases" and other algorithmic crap. In UO, you could grind however long you want, but if you are not skilled enough to get through the layer of PKs surrounding the city, you would grind exactly 0 money. And, unless you had some really good friend who would craft you decent equipment for free, you were screwed until you actually learnt how to survive with next to nothing in your hands.

Now, how to survive in WoW? This question is ridiculous. No one needs to "survive" while leveling or grinding dailies since you need to try really hard to actually die to mobs there.

[MoanaLisa]

The funny thing about multiplayer games is that people aren't expecting a single-player game. they're expecting a game where interaction with other players is encouraged, and where interacting with other players enriches the whole gameplay experience.

But the real problem with WoW is that social/multi-player content is sorely lacking in the game.

That's part of the problem. A bigger part of the problem can be experienced by reading this or Blizzard's forums. There are tons of people that post that I never ever want to run into in the game. There's an even larger group that never posts.

The answer to all of this is expanding the ways that people can group together one way or another. They've done some good things for the next expansion but they need to do much more.

One thing is to borrow the D3 community model which allows one to join several communities as well as be a member of a clan (somewhat the same as a guild in most important ways). That allows you multiple ways of being social and finding a spot that is a good fit socially.

There's a lot they can do but the "Join one guild and hope for the best" model really needs to be changed.

Note: Sorry to be off-topic but we seem to be wandering a bit. I can brush up against the topic though by noting that those that prefer specific levels of difficulty should be looking for those that share their preferences. In many cases a single guild isn't going to make it. Cross-server guilds or communities are really needed but I feel that limiting your choices to 1 is something they need to do away with.

[Kryos]

It is sad that people today see possible difficulty only in "complicated boss fights", "phases" and other algorithmic crap. In UO, you could grind however long you want, but if you are not skilled enough to get through the layer of PKs surrounding the city, you would grind exactly 0 money. And, unless you had some really good friend who would craft you decent equipment for free, you were screwed until you actually learnt how to survive with next to nothing in your hands.

Now, how to survive in WoW? This question is ridiculous. No one needs to "survive" while leveling or grinding dailies since you need to try really hard to actually die to mobs there.

So all you need in UO is TIME to GRIND your crafted gear. No time, no gear, no progress. Wow on the other hand only gives you good gear if you have skill. No skill, no dead heroic boss, no dead enemy Arena team. I prefer skill based games over grinding boring mats any day. If you have no skill, you would prefer to grind your stuff.

[May90]

So all you need in UO is TIME to GRIND your crafted gear. No time, no gear, no progress. Wow on the other hand only gives you good gear if you have skill. No skill, no dead heroic boss, no dead enemy Arena team. I prefer skill based games over grinding boring mats any day. If you have no skill, you would prefer to grind your stuff.

Skill-based game is the one in which, based on your skill, you can reap benefits right off the bat after creating your hero. UO was like that: the more skill you had, the more chance you had to collect enough money to buy something before you get killed and your money taken away. WoW is not like that: there are strong bottlenecks all the way until, maybe, normal raids in which your skill doesn't matter since the content is ridiculously easy. In normal/heroic raids, I guess, skill really matters, but that is a very tiny part of the game content-wise, and, again, a huge part of your success is still defined by the gear you've grinded by doing basic effortless things for a very long time.

I'm not saying UO was highly skill-based, it certainly was not, it was quite a dumb game even for its time. But there skill definitely mattered all the way, and newbies actually were in the worst position due to overpowered mobs and PKs. In WoW the game before level 90 isn't even considered real, you have to go through all this mindblowingly easy content just to start actually playing. This is an apex of ridiculousness.

[Powerogue]

It'd be nice if things like LFR could be more challenging without being obnoxiously time consuming. Those seem to be at cross purposes.

I love a raid boss that takes more than one try, but at the same time I don't have enough spare hours in the day to try the same raid boss 10 times straight. Due to this being a multiplayer game I can't just try 5 times, take a break, and try 5 times later.

[Marrilaife]

Are you joking? Tell me about the big skill you needed to play Ultima Online or Everquest and the many complicated boss fights back then... how many phased and transitions and things to take care of did they have? Oh, it was all about having the right gear... usually crafted.... by GRINDING and having LOTS OF FREE TIME...

Yep, or numerous Asian MMOs that were all about grinding & ganking all the way.

[Deleted]

MMOs were never about skill and shouldn't be.. well MMORPGs anyway. They should be about immersion (the story and the world) and time investment - the more you play, they richer and better you get. RPGs originate from tabletop games so where is the skill in rolling dice or moving the pieces? If anything, then planning and strategy should matter but the game shouldn't reward button smashers and players with fast reactions or those who can perform combos better.. that sort of stuff belongs in action games.

[Vash The Stampede]

MMOs used to reward devoted and skilled people. Now they reward people with no jobs and a lot of free time instead...

Quoted for truth.

[Deleted]

The same time we had literally everything about the journey told to us on the front-page of MMO and alike sites. The same time all mystery of a raid was lost when Fatboss tells us how to beat bosses that aren't even available in the game yet. The same time raiding became next to nothing because of how simple and easy it is with all the hand-holding, even in Heroic.

So noone ever goes to Hawaii on vacation, because everyone reads the advertising, and that's just as good as being there, am I correct? ^^

[Vaelorian]

So noone ever goes to Hawaii on vacation, because everyone reads the advertising, and that's just as good as being there, am I correct? ^^

exactly but these people you quoted heard the same statement elsewhere and thought there was wisdom in it, so they just repeat others. Thats to say that it is not entirely true. But since:
1. most people do not read websites such as mmo.champ or alike - the statement is quite false for the majority of players
2. when you play WoW for the first time (or a new expansion) it still offers fresh things. Bosses aren't everything (and that is coming from a heroic raider)

MMOs used to reward devoted and skilled people. Now they reward people with no jobs and a lot of free time instead...

I hate to disagree with you mate. Before when I played WoW I was 24/25. I had a job and my own house. No other responsibilities or people I needed to socialise with apart from friends. I had time plenty. So in Vanilla I was at it all the time. Due to that I had a lot of fun because I gobbled up content at a nice pace. Whereas now... (still have a job and a house) I have a dog and a fiancee (and her family). So I don't have as much time. But nowadays I gobble up content at an astonishing rate. Skill isn't required at all to see all the content (via LFR). But when I was playing Vanilla or even TBC or prenerf Cata, then you needed more (not a lot but more) skills then you do now.

[Vash The Stampede]

I hate to disagree with you mate. Before when I played WoW I was 24/25. I had a job and my own house. No other responsibilities or people I needed to socialise with apart from friends. I had time plenty. So in Vanilla I was at it all the time. Due to that I had a lot of fun because I gobbled up content at a nice pace. Whereas now... (still have a job and a house) I have a dog and a fiancee (and her family). So I don't have as much time. But nowadays I gobble up content at an astonishing rate. Skill isn't required at all to see all the content (via LFR). But when I was playing Vanilla or even TBC or prenerf Cata, then you needed more (not a lot but more) skills then you do now.

Top ranking guilds will never associate progress with time, because everything is a race to first. People who couldn't see all the content needed more time because of people standing in fire or not doing their job in raids. Those type of guilds need more time. Of course with LFR you could literally AFK from your keyboard while everyone in the raid is pointing fingers at people at the bottom of the meters, without even realizing you're there because you did 0 damage.

Things like LFR devalue content to the point that it's not worth doing unless you plan to progress to Flex -> Normal -> Heroic, or in WoD Normal -> Heroic -> Mythic. What's the point of doing LFR when you don't really get to see content? Sure you get to see the boss models and the dungeon but what's the point? That's usually a reward for fighting your way through difficult content. About 90% of boss mechanics are ignored in LFR, so you're not seeing any actual content. Just some stuff that would take the same effort as going onto YouTube and watching it.

Come WoD and new or returning players are going to find themselves against lock out restrictions. I know I can do Heroic and Mythic content but I'll first have to do it on LFR and normal. You need to do that content as new players with skill or no skill, cause no guild will take you without being slightly over geared for the content. Not like in Vanilla and TBC where you just ran dungeons and you were set. UBRS took team work and coordination to get through it, while LFR does not. If you were skilled enough and players liked you as a person, you could run it over and over again. In LFR you could accuse players and be a total a-hole to everyone and still receive loot.

Modern WoW not only doesn't require skill but you don't even need people skills.

[Vaelorian]

Not like in Vanilla and TBC where you just ran dungeons and you were set. UBRS took team work and coordination to get through it, while LFR does not. If you were skilled enough and players liked you as a person, you could run it over and over again. In LFR you could accuse players and be a total a-hole to everyone and still receive loot.

Modern WoW not only doesn't require skill but you don't even need people skills.

Yeah I ran dungeons to the max far after I gained the sets I required and other items for resist X. You needed to be good else no loot or PUG for you ever again. I loved that part.

[fixx]

Skill isn't required at all to see all the content (via LFR). But when I was playing Vanilla or even TBC or prenerf Cata, then you needed more (not a lot but more) skills then you do now.

Your problem is equating vanilla or TBC content to LFR which couldn't be farther from the truth and are just doing dumb apples to oranges comparison. The actual raid difficulty in TBC was somewhere between current normal and heroic modes, so if you want to accurately compare time used you should be comparing it to heroic raids, not LFR.

[Vaelorian]

Your problem is equating vanilla or TBC content to LFR which couldn't be farther from the truth and are just doing dumb apples to oranges comparison. The actual raid difficulty in TBC was somewhere between current normal and heroic modes, so if you want to accurately compare time used you should be comparing it to heroic raids, not LFR.

I merely said something about LFR which had nothing to do with comparing.
Funnily enough I in this very thread said to another guy that you cannot compare LFR with raiding in Vanilla such as MC

[fixx]

I merely said something about LFR which had nothing to do with comparing.
Funnily enough I in this very thread said to another guy that you cannot compare LFR with raiding in Vanilla such as MC

Yeah, you were comparing your time use raiding between TBC and today. I'm not surprised the tourist mode takes less time to do than actual raids, are you?

Personally I find it impossible and outright ridiculous to compare the time that I spent raiding between TBC and today. Back then I spent about twice as much time raiding ~20 hours/week doing 100 pulls (the most we had on anything) it took to kill Kael in TBC (world ~2000ish) compared to 12h/week and over 300 pulls on Garrosh (world ~200ish) today. People and guilds are just significantly more effective at playing the game today than they were eight years ago.

[Deleted]

I agree with the op, but thats becuase i play games mainly for the gameplay not for the rewards. Rewards are just a bonus. Currently for me only fun gameplay is herioc raiding but since i dont play it i dont play WoW at all atm.