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  1. #581
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kingbrab View Post
    And the ATVI quarterly reports show just how well that idea is working out for them.
    Hmm, I think they've been doing quite ok in the reports, except for the last quearter, but that probably has different explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingbrab View Post
    But all the raid content is basically wasted. I got back recently to try MoP after quitting in Cata. I went from level 1 to having done all MoP raids in less than a month. Then quit because the game was dull. It would've been better for me if all MoP contained was one tier like Kara, and a bunch of real heroics like TBC. I saw all the content, but the gaming experience was disastrously bad. The fundamental game mechanics and end game model is just completely broken at the moment.
    I don't see why it would be wasted? You ran it through in a month because you didn't play when they came out and were relevant to your ilvl. The only raid content that is relevant in that context is Siege - and even that relevancy can be debated now that it is 1 year old (it's fully possible to get carried through HC SoO, if your guild is willing).
    Kara was also a 15 minute faceroll when you ran it at end of TBC with a guild that had cleared Sunwell.
    Last edited by mmocdd602b3b80; 2014-08-24 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    Based on what, the sonic boom of failure created when Wildstar flopped? I love this fucking fantasy that Blizzard would make more money if only they didn't cater to casuals so hard, and how desperately people like you cling to it. Reality check: There have now been at least two attempts at a "hardcore MMO" and both turned out to be horrible trainwrecks.
    Yeah, it amazing how that ridiculous canard keeps being repeated, despite zero evidence to support it. It's hardcores (or, more likely, hardcore wannabes) projecting their own supposed desires onto the general player population. Totally illegitimate and illogical.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #583
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft. It's the community that get behind this idea that things need to be hard, and only the best should be able to do the hard things so everyone else looks in awe at that. I have zero issue with something that's designed for average people, because that's average. You don't design around the top or the bottom, you design around the middle because everything else are outliers.

    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.

    I play actual hobbies (tabletop wargaming) that require an investment of time and/or money (expensive figures, painting them, etc.) and even those tend to rarely focus on the tournament, top-tier crowd. You get some that are more tournament-friendly, but there isn't this big myth that everyone has to be playing at a high level like you find in online games. A game like LoL seems to be more competitively positioned anyways, while WoW (and most other MMOs) generally realize in short order that making things super hard for only the best of the best works fine for the first month or two, then it turns out that people don't like being told "VIP only. No riffraff" at the door. There's a reason why virtually all MMOs end up having to add a dungeon finder, if they don't start with one.

  4. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojomoses View Post
    LoL is a casual/fun game that has been labeled as competitive.
    isn't any game casual/fun? it just depends in the person and how serious they are at being the best at it. silly statement
    Dear frozen yogurt, you are the celery of desserts. Be ice cream or be nothing.

  5. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yeah, it amazing how that ridiculous canard keeps being repeated, despite zero evidence to support it. It's hardcores (or, more likely, hardcore wannabes) projecting their own supposed desires onto the general player population. Totally illegitimate and illogical.
    It's not like the reality of Wildstar's hilarious failure is going to deter them. MMO-C's resident foreveralones have built themselves into a bubble where they seriously believe casual gamers will happily pay a monthly fee for a game that only offers them table scraps out of pity if they beg nicely enough so it can funnel its budget into content balanced for the top 5% of the player base. Wildstar was a fluke, you'll see! So were RIFT, and Everquest 2! The next game that comes out gunning for WoW's hardcore audience will totally succeed and kill WoW once and for all, heralding a new, glorious age of hardcores-only MMO gaming!
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft.
    'perfecting your craft' is part of the enjoyment for many people though. accessibility is all fine and dandy until you overdo it and dumb down your game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.
    why does blizzard continue supplying all this hard content then? the problems only arises when you tie it to LFR/LFD.


  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Ray III View Post
    why does blizzard continue supplying all this hard content then? the problems only arises when you tie it to LFR/LFD.
    They must think the rather low marginal cost of including a hard mode (once you already have easier modes) is worth the return. But even GC in that twitter thread said for WoW, the hardcores cannot sustain the game themselves.

    https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...71835465789440
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  8. #588
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamyz View Post
    I don't see why it would be wasted? You ran it through in a month because you didn't play when they came out and were relevant to your ilvl. The only raid content that is relevant in that context is Siege - and even that relevancy can be debated now that it is 1 year old (it's fully possible to get carried through HC SoO, if your guild is willing).
    Kara was also a 15 minute faceroll when you ran it at end of TBC with a guild that had cleared Sunwell.
    I paid Blizzard for my xpac and a month a play time, I didn't get quality gaming experience in return. That's the bottom line, and that's why they're losing customers quarter after quarter for years.

    You're describing exactly why the current model is so badly broken. In TBC all the content was current all the time (until they started handing out T6 level gear for badges and dropped T6 attunement at the end). If I had come into TBC late, I could still do heroics the way they were intended and there would still be guilds starting on Kara progress that I could've played with. I wouldn't have "seen everything", but all my play hours would've been filled with meaningful, high quality gaming. In MoP all I did was run through all heroics in a night and all raids in 2-3 nights, and then I had seen everything and was out of content. There was actually quite a lot of content, but all of it was wasted since I didn't get to experience it in a meaningful way, and it didn't provide me with a quality gaming experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft.
    Who are you to tell me why or how I am supposed to play? Get over yourself. In TBC/WotLK I did spend hours perfecting my craft and it was great, I enjoyed it, and it was worth my money.

    It's the community that get behind this idea that things need to be hard, and only the best should be able to do the hard things so everyone else looks in awe at that.
    Except people who do the hard content typically don't care how others look at them. This is just a fantasy concocted by casuals, who selfishly believe that hardcore players put in all the time and effort just to have the casuals look at them in awe. It's an utter fallacy and needs to be put to rest already.

    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.
    Now you're just parroting GC's tweets. Not everyone will rise to the challenge, not everyone needs to. What the game needs is diversity and variety, and part of that is hard content. It's absolutely not a myth, it's the reason why I don't pay Blizzard at the moment. There should be hard content for hardcores and easy content for bads, and meaningful content for skilled casuals. Blizzard is not delivering that. They're trying to push everyone do the same content at the same time, with only difference being how many times you grind it in how many modes. That's just bad game design, and the sooner they realize they need to build different content for different playstyles, the sooner WoW has a chance to start recovering from the death spiral it is currently in.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They must think the rather low marginal cost of including a hard mode (once you already have easier modes) is worth the return.
    do we know that's how they design btw? i always thought they start at the hardest mode and go down from there.


  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Ray III View Post
    do we know that's how they design btw? i always thought they start at the hardest mode and go down from there.
    That's irrelevant. Marginal cost doesn't depend on which is "done first"; it's a measure of how much you save if you omit one of the modes.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  11. #591
    Why would anybody pay to play a game that's too difficult to win in this day and age? Maybe once or twice, for the challenge. But I'm not going to spend however many bucks a month on something that I get no joy from, when I can spend on things I do enjoy.
    Feel like you have a target on your back around here?

    Knowing this place, you probably do.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's irrelevant.
    do you know the answer though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Marginal cost doesn't depend on which is "done first"; it's a measure of how much you save if you omit one of the modes.
    doesn't matter what the cost is. if it wasn't worth it blizzard wouldn't be bothered with heroic modes. not only we get them every tier sometimes they even throw in heroic only boss. we also got challenge modes and brawler's guild.


  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft.
    Great games very much encourage both sides of this coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.
    Hard content, or, in looser terms, 'the stuff you can't do quite yet' certainly is needed, because a player feeling like they've done all they want to is a bad thing for a company trying to sell a persistent-world, sub-based game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's irrelevant. Marginal cost doesn't depend on which is "done first"; it's a measure of how much you save if you omit one of the modes.
    Shareholders make terrible game designers.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Prothall View Post
    Why would anybody pay to play a game that's too difficult to win in this day and age? Maybe once or twice, for the challenge. But I'm not going to spend however many bucks a month on something that I get no joy from, when I can spend on things I do enjoy.
    Some people glean their enjoyment from feeling like they worked to accomplish something.

    Some could say the very same thing you said about why someone would play a game that's too easy to win, it's all a matter of personal preference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    Some people glean their enjoyment from feeling like they worked to accomplish something.

    Some could say the very same thing you said about why someone would play a game that's too easy to win, it's all a matter of personal preference.
    That's not to say of course, that artificial difficulty is a good thing, something can be hard and enjoyable instead of being hard for the sole purpose of extending the time you're playing the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Prothall View Post
    Why would anybody pay to play a game that's too difficult to win in this day and age? Maybe once or twice, for the challenge. But I'm not going to spend however many bucks a month on something that I get no joy from, when I can spend on things I do enjoy.
    What joy or satisfaction is there in the easily achieved?

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    GC is complaining about a dumbed down game he dumbed down?

    That's level 100 irony right there.
    Ghostcrawler wasn't 100% in charge of anything. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he wasn't even 5% in charge of anything in the game. Everything has to go through a team, and when they sit down and have their board meeting, and Mike Morhaime tells them all that the game has to be accessible to all players, then their design concepts have to mold into whatever he wants the game to be.

    Ghostcrawler probably very much so wanted WoW to be much harder or more complex than it is, but was likely restrained by what the company wanted or needed as a whole. He worked for the company, not the other way around.

  17. #597
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yeah, it amazing how that ridiculous canard keeps being repeated, despite zero evidence to support it. It's hardcores (or, more likely, hardcore wannabes) projecting their own supposed desires onto the general player population. Totally illegitimate and illogical.
    So... if easy is good for retention... where the fuck did the 5 million subs go to? You and your sycophants forget that all the work making the game easier has seen nothing but sub losses. If your argument is "Making things easier attracts and retains players" then WoW's history since TBC utterly contradicts you.

    People don't want Auber-casual nor do they want ultra-hardcore. They seemed to want Vanilla and TBC - a game that presented enough challenge to give most people a feeling of accomplishment without being so hard that they felt like they had no chance of succeeding. Blizzard had this in their hands and decided to change things... and have been losing players ever since.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Though yes, casualizing games would ruin them. In many ways things like grinding and killing mobs are very casual like in MMO's, which is getting boring. Let me know when Wildstar has LFR in it and that's when the game will be for sale for $1.
    Wildstar has maybe 150k subscribers left, three months after launch, and will be lucky to survive a year. That's how popular exclusive raids and attunements are. Funny how all these "totally obvious reasons it should fail that have nothing to do with nobody liking hardcore bullshit" didn't seem obvious until the hardcore types needed an excuse for why it tanked.

    The vast majority of WoW players completely ignore organized raiding and always have.
    LFR continues to be the dominant and most participated raid mode by far.
    Vanguard tried to bring back hardcore MMO gaming and was dead at launch.
    Wildstar brought back 40-mans and attunements and was a disaster.

    But please, tell me more about how Blizzard are fools to ignore the bonanza of money they could make by catering to hardcores more. After all, eventually after enough years WoW started to decline, whereas if they had catered to hardcores more it would have grown forever! Right?

    Get the fuck out. Hardcore MMO gaming is dead and buried.

  19. #599
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    Wildstar has maybe 150k subscribers left, three months after launch, and will be lucky to survive a year. That's how popular exclusive raids and attunements are. Funny how all these "totally obvious reasons it should fail that have nothing to do with nobody liking hardcore bullshit" didn't seem obvious until the hardcore types needed an excuse for why it tanked.

    The vast majority of WoW players completely ignore organized raiding and always have.
    LFR continues to be the dominant and most participated raid mode by far.
    Vanguard tried to bring back hardcore MMO gaming and was dead at launch.
    Wildstar brought back 40-mans and attunements and was a disaster.

    But please, tell me more about how Blizzard are fools to ignore the bonanza of money they could make by catering to hardcores more. After all, eventually after enough years WoW started to decline, whereas if they had catered to hardcores more it would have grown forever! Right?

    Get the fuck out. Hardcore MMO gaming is dead and buried.
    Do you have any evidence that palyers stop playing wildstar becouse of hardcore tunning? Becouse i left wildstar becouse of scifi theme, wierd lore, game is too cartonish and humor is over the top. Rest of the game is just amazing. So pls dont talk like we all left Wildstar becouse it was too hard. But you know what w/e keep your and rest of players what think that easy game = more players dream. Too bad that WoW will never grow again in number of players. And no it isnt becouse of age of the game.

    Oh and btw WoW is popular game not good game. So pls learn difference. MC Donalds is visited by millions people even when they sell trash food.
    Last edited by mmoca9a2d58f1f; 2014-08-24 at 06:21 PM.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    This isn't true. Blizzard have said that they either made LFR or stop making raids entirely - the cost of raids was in no way justifiable to their finance team given how few people raided.
    Never been said. All Blizzard has said is LFR justifies more resources to raiding.

    Originally Posted by Watcher
    Q: I have read posts that claim you have said LFR saved raiding from bean counters and the chopping block. I cant find this. T/F?
    A: There are no "bean counters" -- just us prioritizing. Can justify larger raids, more art, when it's not just a few seeing it.
    Two things happened in MoP which has an influence on raids. First was a 40% increase in the development team and second was less five mans which share the same team as raids.

    Sure without LFR Blizzard wouldnt be able to justify larger raid, but what is so bad about spending more content for non-raiders? All I keep hearing from the LFR supporters that bitch about the amount of resources raiding gets is that raiding should continue to get more resources. Just a bunch of people who only care about raiding themselves and dont want to see any meaningful alternatives to raiding. Those are the selfish ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    I'd have to admit challenge keeps players. When people can do all the relevant content in 1 day there is no reason to stay subscribed.
    Personally the better word choice is engaging gameplay keeps players, excluding the ones that just play WoW to turn off their brain and do a bunch of mindless tedious chores.

    The inherit issue with group based gameplay is even if things are designed to be engaging and fun around the majority average it takes just one person a minority of the group to start ruining the majorities enjoyment of the game and they start getting frustrated. Which is why Blizzard then designs around the bottom minority to create a less frustrating experience for the majority, but in turn makes something more lackluster. Players are more likely to put up with something lackluster than frustrating.

    Then there is the other aspect of what is engaging for each player and with WoW being a theme park MMO to cater to such a wide variety of interests it further splits up the population unlike more focused games.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-08-24 at 07:14 PM.

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