Removal of fel flame (what are we supposed to cast now?)

[Deleted]

I'd say there's a big difference between "not ideal on certain fight" and "not viable". Specs being not ideal on certain fights, that's to be expected.
Right now as it stands on beta, there are quite some fights where you have only 1 spec - that being demo with it's better mobility - viable, all other specs pure dogs**t. Bad design in my opinion. Doesn't it go against that "bring player, not class/spec" mantra I've been hearing about from Blizzard?

The mantra is bring the player, not the class. Its been a goal, but one which was obviously missed for certain specs in MoP. MM, Arms, Retri, Shadow, were all weak throughout this expansion. For MM and Arms this is far less of a problem; they have Fury, BM, and SV. A Ret or SP who wants to play DPS is left out in the cold though, and for them their flexibility for their spec lies in their talent tree. Or well, at least for SP.

Looking back at MoP lock as well as the above it is not unlikely one spec is going to be best, that is how WoW works (even as SP, you often are forced into Insanity + turret if you want to do the max potential damage for two patches in a row now). If you don't like Insanity as SP you are playing the wrong spec or you get GCD capped and then you got choices between SoD (FDCL) and Mindbender. During heavy movement on Lei Shen we had to go for FDCL (which favors crit, which isn't favored due to UVLS) because else we did nothing in P3. I'm sure someone can draw a warlock analogy for that one. I mean, on Lei Shen you played Demo, no doubt about that one. Did you complain about that one too?

And, are you sure the problem can't be fixed by tuning?

About PvP, its pretty damn clear Blizzard wants it to be World of physical damagecraft. Melee and hunters.

[Jessicka]

At this point you can use pretty much any spec on any fight. Removing Fel Flame to regress us to force us into spec changing... I don't have words for that. I honestly don't get your campaign against Warlocks. I'm sorry if you got benched a bunch of times because our class was overtuned, it's a tough break, but there's really no need to go on a senseless crusade which amounts to little more than a personal attack on Warlock players because Blizzard fucked up the maths. That isn't our fault. Your rage is misguided.

Yes, Shaman also got nerfed on the premise that they should revert to planting on using cooldowns, instead of running around spamming their filler, then binding SWG to their cooldown and continuing to run around. Fair enough. The key difference here is that when a Shaman plants to blow their cooldowns, they're not doing so based on a resource gathered in the previous minutes from using their filler spells. Without Fel Flame, even when an opportune moment comes to plant to blow cooldowns, there is a very real risk we're short on resources to get the most out of it. Movement impacts us therefore twice - firstly the DPS loss from not casting, and secondly, later when we've stopped moving due to the resource loss from having not generated Embers/Fury during that downtime. The resource cost is for me the much bigger deal than the damage while moving loss, as its far more frustrating and is far more punishing to unplannable movement. To add that they changed the Moonkin Eclipse swing bar to overcome this issue for them, well...

[Deleted]

yeah, for me the biggest worry is the loss of our secondary resource generation when we move, it is something that will end up impacting us greatly, which was another role that fel flame would have had, other than giving us something to do while moving, blizz really need to give us something that allows us to generate a decent amount of resources while moving, and tbh id gladly take a fel flame with reduced dmg if it would give me a steady stream of fury/embers while moving.

[Ammeg]

Bit of an over exaggeration and pretty sure it is bait but I'll bite.

Affliction - you are supposed to re-do your dots while on the move, between making optimal use of your portal and gateway (fuck your raid unless the gateway is REQUIRED it is YOURS to use as a personal) you shouldn't find it too hard to minimize movement though this spec is obviously the most heavily affected by movement changes.

Demon - Realistically nothing here changes, you'll still use meta to move just like you would have on live because KJC really isn't worth it except on rare occasions for demo because meta makes it incredibly mobile. You should easily be able to fit in most of your fury into your cds and procs still, I would LOVE to them remove the fury cost from demon leap as well, you can also refresh corruption use your hand of guldan maybe even pop imp swarm to use as a mobility ability. Of course your portals and gateway as well.

Destro - With the rare chance Charred remains makes it to live this spec becomes less affected by movement than affliction since missing out on procs isn't as bad as originally. You can pool Conflagrates to use, rain of fire on movement, portal and gateway, we certainly aren't going to be incredibly mobile but we have it just as bad as ele shamans or shadow priests (maybe a little worse than s priest depending on luck and talents) at the moment.

Pretty much this ^^^ and the "try not moving" that has come up too. Not all classes have a moveable casting spell iirc.

[Deleted]

The resource cost is for me the much bigger deal than the damage while moving loss, as its far more frustrating and is far more punishing to unplannable movement. To add that they changed the Moonkin Eclipse swing bar to overcome this issue for them, well...

Absolutely this!!! From a destro point of view the damage gain through fel flame was minimal to say the least, it was always about it generating embers that made me want to cast it. Invaluable in pvp, to allow consistent ember generation while being trained, now melee have absolutely ZERO reason not to train you as not only do you shut down the damage you prevent any sort of meaningful healing as you cannot generate enough in time.

Had a warrior/dk on me earlier and all they did was interrupt my immolate and stun me during pummel/mf cooldowns, so i was left with RoF to try get some embers, its a joke i literally had to stand there like a fucking moomin and try to get some distance every port cooldown, which resulted in maybe a couple of casts if i was lucky.

I would still take Fel Flame if it did zero damage but generated embers, i really cant see how they can be so blind as to how important that spell was for us to function

[Deleted]

Oh its all personal blabla its not a good argument and I pity you for pulling it off cause you'll surely get an argument of popularity with bullshit like that. It is those who pull that card who are going personal, not me. I feel sorry I got benched a bunch? Yeah, that's funny, I'm one of the few in my team who benches whatever underperforms when needed so no need to feel sorry for myself. I have been asked to reroll 3 times in 2 patches and refused, I got myself to blame there. I've also been on the OP side of the stick cause I played SP in Cata so I knew potentially MoP was going to be less good.

If you're OP 3 patches in a row, I honestly don't understand why you would expect to be above mediocre when it comes to tuning. DPS (or GCDs which do DPS and resource generation) during movement out of boredom is a bad argument because it will cause tuning to occur around it whereas if that doesn't happen your damage while turret will go -in theory- up. I say in theory cause you never know what Blizzard tunes around behind the screens (for us, it was our off healing). So, in theory, cause like I said 3 patches OP and that argument is related to tuning, not mechanics. The other point I made was that it doesn't matter if one spec of a pure is underperforming for one, maybe two patches.

Moonkin eclipse you got that one backwards. Auto Eclipse can actually ruin you if you have to move right when you got into an Eclipse. You really need to plan around that if you want to perform well. The way it works with movement as far as I understand it is Glyph of Astral Communion (which does no damage) and you can go into an eclipse during movement and then time that with GCD redots and/or turret. For the rest, Moonkin only can proc Starsurge from the last 2 dots applied akin to how Haunt works.

there is a very real risk we're short on resources to get the most out of it

No shit, Shadow needs to plant and turret for almost 10 seconds for a successful Insanity which you need to plan around your limit of orbs, trinket procs, and movement. Yet you complain you need to plan your Chaos Bolt of 2,5 sec around a trinket proc during movement? Maybe you can, maybe you can't it would depend on the fight and your skill. Regardless of that there is no spec in this game other than Shadow which has to turret for almost 10 seconds. When we complained "this lock here casts MG during movement we want MF during movement too" it was we'll nerf every ranged movement DPS cause its gone out of hand.

I don't know exactly how Elemental got changed but on live what I do is FS multidot and pump the procs into a primary target. Its pretty sick and movement friendly but I'm pretty sure it won't be like that in live and their AoE also got quite changed (Earthquake is now akin to a DnD). I'll make an Ele today to test out some stuff. Regardless, Blizzard's intention was to hurt Ele and Lock movement DPS the hardest and we've all known that for various months now. No need to act surprised about the effects of those statements.

PvP, it seems all casters got issues getting melee peeled off from them and I believe if we look at the reduced CC for all casters that is by design. Consider to reroll from caster if PvP concerns you.

[Deleted]

If you're OP 3 patches in a row, I honestly don't understand why you would expect to be above mediocre when it comes to tuning..

Because nerfing 3 specs to the ground purely on the basis that the class was OP for an expansion is retarded, spiteful, and idiotic game design.

We understand that you are bitter that SP got nerfed and was weak all expansion because of Cata. We really do, but just because it happened to you does NOT mean it should happen to anyone else. ALL specs should be balanced. I would fucking love it if Warlocks weren't OP and could stand on their own merit, as opposed to people making "Warlock OP" comments when I wreck them as Demonology even.

Also, does Insanity make up like 70%+ of your DPS? Because if they tune CR to become the staple for single target (assuming servitude remains garbage) then yes, not being able to cast 2.5s chaos bolts for prolonged periods of time is a very big issue. A bigger one than you face with Insanity thanks to a much more flexible talent tree.

Similarly, I would also like to point out that when you look away from the top tier players and at the masses, with pure classes there is a much higher tendency to only play one spec. Sure, most people here will respec if the fight calls for it, but I guarantee you will see a ton of Destruction Warlocks in WoD who only played Destruction in MoP and will continue to only play Destruction. They cannot spec out of Chaos Bolt and into something else. Shadow can at least amend talents to react to fight mechanics.

[buffalowbie]

Because nerfing 3 specs to the ground purely on the basis that the class was OP for an expansion is retarded, spiteful, and idiotic game design.

You guys aren't being nerfed into the ground. You (general you) were OP, and now are being put back in line where you should have been all xpac. Also, you have three specs. Pick the highest DPS one. If not being able to top the charts with little skill upsets you (again, general you), maybe you need to reevaluate what class you play. Or maybe you aren't as good as you thought you were.

[Nerraw]

You guys aren't being nerfed into the ground. You (general you) were OP, and now are being put back in line where you should have been all xpac. Also, you have three specs. Pick the highest DPS one. If not being able to top the charts with little skill upsets you (again, general you), maybe you need to reevaluate what class you play. Or maybe you aren't as good as you thought you were.

Learn to understand the difference between pure DPS and overall class mechanics, and then come back.

[Deleted]

Because nerfing 3 specs to the ground purely on the basis that the class was OP for an expansion is retarded, spiteful, and idiotic game design.

buffalowbie gets it and got the TLDR.

Nowhere did I say nerfing 3 specs "to the ground", those are your words. You can keep using strong words like retarded, spiteful, idiotic and whatever other ad hominem you got to give your argument strength it means nothing to me because I look through such empty claims. Repeating that and have a whole lot of people who play your same class repeat that as well like a bunch of parrots, it won't make it right either.

I will draw it out for you bunch of stubbornistic folks.

1. Method
2. Blood Legion
3. Exorsus

If Method is the best guild in the world, then Blood Legion cannot be the best guild in the world. There can only be one best guild in the world, and that's Method. Exorsus can be a great guild, but they're not the best. Do you get that principle? Good.

If we got 3 clothies, warlock, mage, and priest then only 1 of those can be best. Do you get that one too? Great.

Well if we look at the recent history I don't think it works like Shadow, Demonology, Destruction, Affliction, Fire, Arcane, Frost and lets balance these 7 based on a lottery. I think it works rather like comparing subspecs of Shadow with the other 6 (and their talent choices, too), and given Shadow's recent past its going to be higher. That's just Shadow. We got more hybrids or specs in general who were bad or downright terrible last patch or last few patches. Retri, MM, Arms. If you'd buff all those cause they been weak in the recent past the logical conclusion is going to be that the class which was OP for 3 patches is going to be below that. This is because in a ladder you got winners and losers.

If we talk about class balancing we tune it for the high end, the top guilds. We don't really tune it for the casuals as they don't really care if they use MF or KJC or Soul Leech or glyph Havoc or any of that. That's a different playing field where player quality can make more difference. So if you have a pure, you always need to assume the pure plays the best spec. For a hybrid, like SP, you need to assume they spec for the best talents of a fight. That's the analogy to use.

When we say "what goes up, must go down" we mean sometimes a class or spec has a period in which it shines but like when you drink a lot of alcohol you're going to have a hangover cause you won't stay at the height forever. Well, your hangover is coming sooner or later. I argue it should come sooner, because after 3 patches its quite time for that. I would have this opinion even if I mained a warlock, what I main has nothing to do with my opinion. Its just I know a lot about SP, lived it, and its a direct competitor of the other two clothies one of which you happen to play and we happen to discuss here. There's other examples, like Retri. We can use that as base point, I don't think those guys respec much for DPS gain at all.

We understand that you are bitter that SP got nerfed and was weak all expansion because of Cata. We really do, but just because it happened to you does NOT mean it should happen to anyone else. ALL specs should be balanced. I would fucking love it if Warlocks weren't OP and could stand on their own merit, as opposed to people making "Warlock OP" comments when I wreck them as Demonology even.

It is not possible to balance everything exactly equally. Whether its 20% or 10% or 5% there is always going to be better and worse.

Also, does Insanity make up like 70%+ of your DPS? Because if they tune CR to become the staple for single target (assuming servitude remains garbage) then yes, not being able to cast 2.5s chaos bolts for prolonged periods of time is a very big issue. A bigger one than you face with Insanity thanks to a much more flexible talent tree.

You got more stationary spells than CB. Spec out of Insanity is for ST not really a choice right now. Only during super heavy movement did we do this (Lei Shen P3, cause in P1 and P2 Insanity was better).

Similarly, I would also like to point out that when you look away from the top tier players and at the masses, with pure classes there is a much higher tendency to only play one spec. Sure, most people here will respec if the fight calls for it, but I guarantee you will see a ton of Destruction Warlocks in WoD who only played Destruction in MoP and will continue to only play Destruction. They cannot spec out of Chaos Bolt and into something else. Shadow can at least amend talents to react to fight mechanics.

People who want to stick to Destro when its the least viable are more than welcome to do so if they prefer that spec but then don't cry about the performance as its a conscious choice. If you want to walk up a mountain backwards, by all means have fun doing that but don't complain its hard. If you only like one spec of warlock perhaps you play the wrong class or game. For SP, our flexibility comes from talent tree, yours is akin to talent tree PLUS the spec so DPS-wise you got a lot more flexibility than us. So where we spec for movement friendly talents, you need to go Demo (IF you want to be competitive). No big deal!

Look I get it warlock was the class of this expansion, it was largely redesigned and it had 3 amazingly good specs (Demo being my fav, and arguably most fun alt experience in whole of MoP) but now its time for the FOTM to move on and the people who love the class warlock to stick around with it until the storm has passed. That is how class balance goes, in every game. LoL, HS, MtG, D3, it doesn't matter. The same principle will apply.

[woodydave44]

You guys aren't being nerfed into the ground. You (general you) were OP, and now are being put back in line where you should have been all xpac. Also, you have three specs. Pick the highest DPS one. If not being able to top the charts with little skill upsets you (again, general you), maybe you need to reevaluate what class you play. Or maybe you aren't as good as you thought you were.

Funny, I'm not seeing the op'ness here

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic

[Baconeggcheese]

Regardless of that there is no spec in this game other than Shadow which has to turret for almost 10 seconds.

Um...

We have to cast 4 chaosbolts within dark soul / trinket procs etc.

We don't cast a single chaosbolt and then go, whelp the other 7.5 seconds of this extremely powerful proc seems like a good time to jump around and spin! WEEEEEEEEEE!

The same goes for casting haunt, we don't haunt then go *hmm, I should probably dance around for 8 seconds instead of turreting MG into the target I just haunted*

The same goes for demo dumping soul fires during strong procs / DS.

I'm sure most classes have examples of having to plant in order to make the most of of procs etc. So uh... no. Spriests are not the only ones who have to plant for 10 seconds. Go away with that shit.

[Deleted]

You guys aren't being nerfed into the ground. You (general you) were OP, and now are being put back in line where you should have been all xpac. Also, you have three specs. Pick the highest DPS one. If not being able to top the charts with little skill upsets you (again, general you), maybe you need to reevaluate what class you play. Or maybe you aren't as good as you thought you were.

Lolalola's post effectively called for us to be nothing more than 'mediocre'. His previous posts have always followed a trend of "you deserve to suck in WoD because of how strong you were in MoP and because of what they did to Shadow this expansion".

We bring no raid utility in WoD (gateway is a joke now, and healthstones heal for less than Health Tonics and share a cooldown). As a pure DPS class, it is expected that we have at least one spec which can push competitive DPS. That's the nature of playing a pure DPS class. We don't have to be top, but if all 3 specs are 'mediocre' then that's a problem. Again, I would vastly prefer that ALL CLASSES/SPECS be competitive across a tier, with certain specs winning out on certain fights, but generally allowing a healthy balance across an instance with opportunities for multiple specs to come out on top.

You (actual you) and others such as Lolalola come here and think that we are complaining about being nerfed. News flash, we are not! We expected it! We know we have a fucking broken spec in the form of Affliction in high gear and Destruction in low gear, and we are quite open to seeing our numbers tuned down. What we are not happy with is how our specs are being diluted and made rather boring, and how we don't like the feel of not being able to cast on the move anymore. We like it, it's fun, and we aren't thrilled to have it taken away from us. Our talent trees are also rather boring and don't really offer any changes to our play style. These are our concerns! We don't give a flying fuck about numbers right because we know that at least one spec will be fine, and that there are still a ton of bugs to be fixed before we can make proper evaluations.

But please. Quit it with the random cameo appearances of calling us out as whining little bitches who only play the top DPS spec "that requires little skill", and feeling smug with yourself that you called out the big bad warlocks on their true intentions.

[Rizendragon]

Funny, I'm not seeing the op'ness here

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic

Noxxic is probably the biggest piece of garbage on the internet. Every log reporting site and raidbots (which takes data from log sites) has destro on top. The only ppl denying that fact are those that wish to mislead others.

[Nighthaven-]

#348

Get lost if you're just going to whine with no relevancy. Especially when you hint that you don't understand the issue nor can make any related comparison why it should be so. Just remember that we can bring a hundredfold counter- examples.

-gibberish-

Can you be short and consistent without shoving your arguments with feelings?

If you need to mask what you're really saying, your argument is very weak to begin with.

Most claims backed up by reasoning can be done with a single line.

This isn't contest about being the most vocal by delivering walls of text, you'll just end up being dismissed if you haven't understood so already.
A forum isn't a pub, try to deliver your message instead.

[woodydave44]

Noxxic is probably the biggest piece of garbage on the internet. Every log reporting site and raidbots (which takes data from log sites) has destro on top. The only ppl denying that fact are those that wish to mislead others.

Funny, raidbots has Destro as 4th also.

worldoflogs has locks on top for a few fights though....but so are warriors, monks, and hunters....


hmmm....maybe it depends on the fight?

[Deleted]

Snip

'Mediocre' - of only average quality; not very good.

You want all 3 warlock specs to be not very good. That's what you said. It's what you've been saying for months.

Your example is rubbish. Stop being so patronizing with your little step by step explanation. I never said I wanted Warlocks to be the best. I said I don't want them to be crap. Having 3 mediocre specs with useless raid utility = crap class.

[Deleted]

Um...

We have to cast 4 chaosbolts within dark soul / trinket procs etc.

We don't cast a single chaosbolt and then go, whelp the other 7.5 seconds of this extremely powerful proc seems like a good time to jump around and spin! WEEEEEEEEEE!

[...]

I'm sure most classes have examples of having to plant in order to make the most of of procs etc. So uh... no. Spriests are not the only ones who have to plant for 10 seconds. Go away with that shit.

If you talk about live, lets compare Destro with Insanity and not some random spec nobody serious plays with another random spec nobody plays. Its not even remotely similar for skill check or flexibility on live. For Insanity you need to weave it in a Mind Blast (and SWDs in execute). If your BBoY procs while you just used your DP, well gg trinket proc largely wasted and you can't sit on 3 orbs with MB off CD. As Destro that can't happen, you can just juggle between 3 and 4 embers and unload when your KTT procs. Its a lot more convenien (our issue is being addressed tho, as we get the retri treatment). Chaos Bolt doesn't even take 2,5 sec on live either. It takes about 1,5 seconds to cast with my 580 ilvl gearset, and your CB cast time benefit as well from LMG. LMG doesn't allow me to spend my resources quicker.

Looking forward hearing all of these specs who have to plant for 10 seconds for their highest single target. There is none. Apart from Moonkin, no other rDPS had issues in P3 on Lei Shen. NONE! Moonkin is an oddball class though, because it actually becomes a lot more friendly with movement as you gear up, gaining crit. Its akin to Fire in that regard except Fire has the advantage of having 2 more viable specs.

Mediocre is middle of the pack, you did understand that part right? If those who were bottom are going to be top now, and those who were top are going to be bottom (a reverse of what is now) then you should be happy being middle of the pack ("mediocre").

As for Nighthaven, my argument has been very consistent in multiple threads. You don't agree with it, sois. For you what I have to say is the following: you accuse me of the very thing you are doing, namely you are not talking on topic at all, you go ad hominem. If you are unable to quote someone and just call what someone says gibberish instead of going in depth about an argument you have lost the argument because you are resorting to fallacies. Have fun juggling around with them, because I won't spend my time reading your posts anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

'Mediocre' - of only average quality; not very good.

From Dictionary.com

of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate:

That's pretty much the definition of average.

You want all 3 warlock specs to be not very good.

Very good is what warlock is now. I indeed think after 3 patches its time the class at a whole isn't going to be "very good"

Stop being so patronizing with your little step by step explanation.

Its apparently necessary.

I never said I wanted Warlocks to be the best. I said I don't want them to be crap.

Having 3 mediocre specs with useless raid utility = crap class.

No, its mediocre.

If I meant shit or bad or crap I would use those words, not mediocre.

The word kinda hints its own definition. You know, medio from medium?

[Baconeggcheese]

Noxxic is probably the biggest piece of garbage on the internet. Every log reporting site and raidbots (which takes data from log sites) has destro on top. The only ppl denying that fact are those that wish to mislead others.

Noxxic is just using the single target simcraft numbers for that which isn't entirely off.

That simcraft isn't including everything warlocks use to cheese like crazy to see the silly silly numbers we get on raidbots etc. We're less silly when you take away the cheese.

[Zinnin]

Please keep the discussion civil, you can disagree without the rude back and forth. Personal attacks aren't tolerated in these forums.