WoD Beta Demonology Discussion

[Crisius]

I think Grimoire of Synergy is awesome. Gives you another proc to work with. It's kind of an exact copy of our T16 2pc.

Well, one is proactive while the other is reactive, so difference in gameplay can vary vastly. Synergy is way, way better than having a wasted talent point though, and I can definitely see the use for it.

[Jessicka]

Synergy is fine, they should roll it out for all specs; that might fix the scaling issues of Sacrifice.

[Deleted]

Synergy is fine, they should roll it out for all specs; that might fix the scaling issues of Sacrifice.

Why ? I love GoSAC. I have always hated depending on that stupid pet for procs and buffs and whatnot.

[camicio]

Cataclysm casted in meta now consume 60 demonic fury per target it hits, nice balancing, imho.

[Jessicka]

Why ? I love GoSAC. I have always hated depending on that stupid pet for procs and buffs and whatnot.

If Fel Flame doesn't come back, you'll need to rely on it for mobility anyway. Besides, as I said, it's proven very difficult to balance with Masteries, and it has all kinds of "special rules" for various abilities and other talents that frankly, are of questionable merrit. Generally, more people use it because of the balance issues it presents - being overpowered - than because they "like" it, I doubt most would really be too concerned either way.

Even so, perhaps Sacrifice could be offered elsewhere; on the 90 tree in place of Mannoroth's Fury, or as a Glyph or something.

Cataclysm casted in meta now consume 60 demonic fury per target it hits, nice balancing, imho.

Always been that way, confirmed as a bug though.

[Alarinth]

Generally, more people use it because of the balance issues it presents - being overpowered - than because they "like" it, I doubt most would really be too concerned either way.

Not too sure on the validity of this claim, as I personally strongly dislike the demons while playing Destruction. I feel the pets doesn't even slightly live up to the name of the spec, and seem counterproductive to what I'm trying to do (Destroy things with a capital "D"), and I know several other warlocks feel the same. Now, for affli, it is different, but seeing as we're discussing GoSac, I'm assuming it is Destro anyways.

[Jessicka]

Not too sure on the validity of this claim, as I personally strongly dislike the demons while playing Destruction. I feel the pets doesn't even slightly live up to the name of the spec, and seem counterproductive to what I'm trying to do (Destroy things with a capital "D"), and I know several other warlocks feel the same. Now, for affli, it is different, but seeing as we're discussing GoSac, I'm assuming it is Destro anyways.

Why would you assume that, just because Destruction favours Sac at this point? Affliction with Sacrifice was bonkers overpowered earlier in the expansion. Would you feel Destruction was "right" without a pet if the roles were still reversed?

[Ryuushima]

like seriously, blizzard has let demonology down a lot of expansions already.
Those still positive that blizzard will buff Demonology damage mid expansion are plain silly.

I really do hope I get to play some demonology this expansion without feeling totally gimped but as always the odds are small...

[Nighthaven-]

Well Jessicka, there's no synergistic features of pet anymore.

The only tiny exception to this is Demonology, where Felguard provides a spec ability.
(even that is minor at best, relative to your other abilities)

As you know,
when you SAC, you gain the utility of the pet anyway.

The only thing that pets do, is taking damage out of yourself and putting it into it. They have never been 'additional' damage - as any pet-less class makes up for lost damage when they can connect to their target again.


So ultimately, what's the point?
Affliction and Destruction doesn't utilize pets in any way, only Demonology by a tiny bit.


There's also the case where pet-less classes with Guardians, where their Guardians have much higher DPS than ours because of their limited up-time. We do not even provide the strongest pets when we need them.

- There are only DISADVANTAGES by having pets for the time being.
Majorly so, when abilities are connected to them instead of providing them yourself like other classes.

(The only exception to this is solo tanking to a very limited scale, if your class cannot heal or evade damage or tank).
- There is no class that lacks all these things.

[Deleted]

I enjoy GoSac for all specs. At the same time I do enjoy certain pet interactions. I remember UVLS era on multi target fights, Demo w/ GoSac was so much fun, those Soul Fire crits, delicious!

My own personal preference would be pets win out on single target, and GoSac wins out when we can obtain a greater influx of secondary resources from multiple targets.

[Jessicka]

I enjoy GoSac for all specs. At the same time I do enjoy certain pet interactions. I remember UVLS era on multi target fights, Demo w/ GoSac was so much fun, those Soul Fire crits, delicious!

My own personal preference would be pets win out on single target, and GoSac wins out when we can obtain a greater influx of secondary resources from multiple targets.

At which point Sac wins out almost all the time.

It seems pretty clear from this discussion that Blizzard have completely lost their way with our minions. Sac should never have happened, they should have taken an alternate route to integrate them more, not less - Synergy would do that. I honestly cannot believe some of this stuff I'm reading from players who picked a pet class know what they were getting into.

[Nivrax]

I loved Imp when it granted instant Soulfires. Felpuppy crits when you had all dots and Shadowflame on target wasn't bad either. Right now however those pets just feel bland, there is no interaction at all unless you somehow need dispel or interrupt. Sure, having your abilities leashed to pet and being forced to switch specs if you needed that interrupt or blood pact sucked, but at least you feeled like your pet was part of you. Now whether I have imp/puppy/blueberry/succ out or sacced, there is no difference in what I do in fight. Neither Affli or Destro have anything that 'suits' them anymore. 2 specs of hunters don't care for pet either, but at least they have hundreds of different species and skins to choose from while our autohitter is limited to 10 models.

In terms of balance, pets are always on target so they're part of 'mobile' dps. As such, Sacrifice should always provide higher dps gain if fight doesn't have much movement.

[Baconeggcheese]

Generally, more people use it because of the balance issues it presents - being overpowered - than because they "like" it, I doubt most would really be too concerned either way.

You'd be surprised how many people enjoy everything about their warlocks except the pets.

I know gosac was one of thee biggest warlock selling points for me going into MoP as I've always hated pets. I actually enjoy destruction more *because* it uses sac, not because sac is strong for it.

If it weren't for me preferring the current setup in flexibility (passive, active, petless) I'd say it would make more sense to get rid of service for aff / dest and give them synergy in that spot considering demonology would be the spec that makes the most sense to be able to control 2 demons at the same time where the other specs aren't even mildly about their pets.

Eh it's all preference anyway.

[Jessicka]

In terms of balance, pets are always on target so they're part of 'mobile' dps. As such, Sacrifice should always provide higher dps gain if fight doesn't have much movement.

Very often though, the best on that stack rank for Patchwerk becomes "only"... as most players actually don't want to be messing with their talents on every other fight.

Frankly, if any should be the best, it should be Service because it's an active talent that has a "missed opportunity cost" that neither Sac, nor Sup, as passive talents suffer from. It goes totally against the philosophy of 'passive talents being weaker' that it actually is, marginally for two of our specs.

- - - Updated - - -

You'd be surprised how many people enjoy everything about their warlocks except the pets.

I know gosac was one of thee biggest warlock selling points for me going into MoP as I've always hated pets. I actually enjoy destruction more *because* it uses sac, not because sac is strong for it.

If it weren't for me preferring the current setup in flexibility (passive, active, petless) I'd say it would make more sense to get rid of service for aff / dest and give them synergy in that spot considering demonology would be the spec that makes the most sense to be able to control 2 demons at the same time where the other specs aren't even mildly about their pets.

Eh it's all preference anyway.

You're seriously suggesting a talent row with, effectively, 3 passive talents? Why even bother :/

[Baconeggcheese]

You're seriously suggesting a talent row with, effectively, 3 passive talents? Why even bother :/

Hence "me preferring the current setup in flexibility"...

I know you fangirl service so there's no reasoning with you there, but it doesn't make much sense flavor wise for 2 of our specs and is hardly ever used.

Synergy is passive in nature but it is reactive to get the most out of it, very very different from a purely passive talent like supremacy or sac.

[Jessicka]

Makes as much sense as Supremacy, or even Servitude, in all honesty. I get Synergy is reactive, which will be used by 'real raiders', but it wouldn't get any more interaction with it than the other two for a much wider portion of the player base who would still pick it if it was on top of the stack rank even though they'd never get the most from it.

Probably would lead to complaints that the row felt a bit uninteresting. Either way, Sup/Serv/Syn makes for a better talent row, Sac could be offered elsewhere.

[Deleted]

I'm with Nirvax on the pet front, i liked them so much better when they had more interaction with you, so they felt meaningful(shadow bite etc), synergy is a step in the right direction in that respect.

However i would always say that we are not a pet class, we are a minion class. And there lies the difference, pets do your bidding out of love, minions do bidding through threat of repercussions and part of that can be to sacrifice them to gain more power, GoSac seems pretty warlocky to me!!!

Coupled with the fact that i get fucking sick of watching my pet derping around pillars or stuck in novas/roots/feared gimping my damage by 20% when my buffed shadowburn would have finished the job.

[Feali]

Can somebody give a rough breakdown of the new rotation with Demonbolt / Cataclysm? Haven't played Demo since ToT and I'm getting really pissed at how Rogues are being treated by Blizzard right now. So I'm looking to get more into another class.

[Alarinth]

Why would you assume that, just because Destruction favours Sac at this point? Affliction with Sacrifice was bonkers overpowered earlier in the expansion. Would you feel Destruction was "right" without a pet if the roles were still reversed?

I've always (5.1-current) preferred it tbh. I like pets for the other two specs, but not as destruction, where I really like how it plays without a pet. It just feels so pointless, when the spec so heavily emphasises chaos bolts/frontloaded heavy damage.

[Deleted]

If we're still using Glyph of Dark Soul then does that not detract from using GoServ anyway? Considering the pet only benefits from 10 seconds of increased damage and not the full 20. With GoSup gaining the additional Fury, it just seems like Service is outclassed outside of adding in an extra AoE cooldown via Felstorm.

In the grand scheme of things it's probably not even going to amount to much difference if any, but it's interesting nonetheless.