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  1. #201
    We have less mobility then before they introduced KJC. That's the problem.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    MoP warlock - completely overtuned in every department, KJC's first iteration was a prime WTF moment in the history of WoW and no, I'm not playing melee.
    WoD warlock - should at least get back fel flame, but overall brought down to reasonable levels, where actually everyone else resides, even mages.

    ^ personal opinion.
    Haste and movement speed penalty for casting on the move for all abilities was overpowered? Not even close. First iteration was not worth using, but the other talents were also lackluster except specific times using MFury was useful. Second iteration was just slightly underpowered(haste penalty was removed MS penalty kept) because movement speed reduction to cast while moving in a raid environment could end up killing you. It's funny the same people claiming that boot enchants can save your life would claim that the MS penalty on KJC was nothing when the MS penalty was potentially almost 4 times what a boot enchant adds.

    The third iteration of KJC was slightly overpowered. All spells, no penalty. The only reason I say slightly is that dps shamans were given the LB on the move baseline eventually and mages had low level talents that did similar to what the WoD version will do. This is a lvl 90 talent. It was supposed to be strong in MoP. I mean hell the mage lvl 90 talents let good players exceed what blizzard expected them to be able to achieve in dps even if the mages cried all day about them.

    The final MoP version of KJC would have been fair going into WoD even with shamans losing LB on the move. A talent to enable filler spells on the move that is your lvl 90 talent is not even remotely overpowered.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crisius View Post
    Are people really using that "Warlock stationary DPS" is high as a justification for the lack of movement? How about no - warlocks are in fact the lowest single-target DPS on the beta even on a stationary fight. Every other class has at least one specc which is better than all three warlock specs. Can't wait for the next round of tuning.
    Like I said earlier, be prepared for ToC era dps for Warlocks. I mean Shamans sat and cried about their dps in ToC and ICC when locks were parsing on average slightly better than their lower of the 2 dps specs and that was for locks' top spec. The devs are basically tweeting like locks were the most overpowered class in history for the duration of MoP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Havik View Post
    The choice was between drastically decreasing caster mobility or their dps output. Primarily where Eleshams and Locks were concerned due to their dis-proportionally high dps compared to other classes.

    Bliz opted to keep their dps pretty high when standing still and non-optimal while moving.

    Given the possible alternatives for solving the problem of dps imbalance between caster and physical dps, the way Bliz went is likely the least harmful.

    They could have just floored your dps and called it a day like they did to rogues after cata.
    That's the problem. They're doing locks just like they did in ToT. UVLS and Imp swarm both massively nerfed for locks. Not just one or the other. Same story is happening in WoD. Nerfing DPS AND mobility. So single target standstill will be on par possibly and mobility will be lower.

  3. #203
    Herald of the Titans Racthoh's Avatar
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    there's always going to be classes at the bottom in terms of simulation. really doesn't mean much to 90% of the raiding playerbase. either you're good enough to put out competitive damage and game encounters correctly or you're not and end up 20-30% behind everyone else in your group. top simmed specs face the same results.

    as for mobility... yes it's going to feel like shit but only because blizz fucked up enough to spoil certain ranged with too much freedom on mobility. warlocks in particular will be fine i wouldn't worry too much about it.
    Last edited by Racthoh; 2014-09-19 at 12:26 AM.

  4. #204
    The change to KJC I can live with. It's the removal of Fel Flame that's responsible for the bite marks on my keyboard. Absolutely ridiculous change. And the fact the devs are so adamant about it, while other ranged classes keep similar abilities, is even more frustrating. My GAWD.
    "Warlocks are the class that gives

    we give all our spells and abilities to other classes"

    - Bamboozer, from the Official WoW Warlock Forum

  5. #205
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Roujeaux View Post
    The change to KJC I can live with. It's the removal of Fel Flame that's responsible for the bite marks on my keyboard. Absolutely ridiculous change. And the fact the devs are so adamant about it, while other ranged classes keep similar abilities, is even more frustrating. My GAWD.
    If we at least had the new Ice Floes as the KJC re-design. But nooooo. Mages stealing all the goods. Hell their T-100 Crystal was originally a Warlock concept someone posted here in our section a while back.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Roujeaux View Post
    And the fact the devs are so adamant about it
    Sometimes I see myself thinking:
    Dunno if Celestalol or any other dev saw this thread early and was like: 'Hah, so you all think we're bluffing about FF removal and are sure we are gonna give you guys fel flame after to settle things down, huh?! YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT, BUT NOW THAT YOU KNOW, WON'T DO IT!"


    Edit: I actually meant the "WoD General Warlock" thread instead of this one.
    Last edited by evertonbelmontt; 2014-09-19 at 10:03 PM.

  7. #207
    I kinda really dig the idea of being able to cast my Chaos Bolts on the move with the new KJC. At least Incinerate and Immolate are relatively short casts in comparison, so not having to interrupt my CB mid-cast to get out of fire would be pretty rad.

  8. #208
    Deleted
    i can deal with the KJC nerf but the soul swap nerf makes me sad

  9. #209
    No, it did not ruin the class and I'm not going to miss it one bit

    Gonna miss Fel Flame though

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    We have less mobility then before they introduced KJC. That's the problem.
    Can we just make this post the first post in this thread and ban everyone who clearly hasn't done their research based on the above quote?

    Please and thank you.

  11. #211
    In essence I find KJC (currently) situational, depending on the fight DS x2 is usually the more desirable option. I still believe the whole casting while moving ruined most classes, not the other way around.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Maybe for all the peeps that started playing Locks in MoP.
    ^^^^^^^^^^This right here.

    I have played many more years without being able to cast and move that it will be a short adjustment and then back to the way things were. What is a nerf is removing fel flame and screwing up our gap creators. Gateway was already hard to use now its going to be damn near worthless.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Apero View Post
    Talking about the the prior 5.4 version? EVERYBODY took it (except for some bosses where the old mf was king), who cares about the snare, you were able to cast everything, it was just amazingly op. Fun times on lei shen with the snare up though were you needed to plan ahead sometimes.

    It was always kjc vs mf , archimondes was never an option before 5.4 hits. I even used kjc in t14 when it had the cast time increase passive while moving because it was still superior to av.
    Yeah, Everyone took the 5.2 version. Where you could cast ur full rotation on the move with no snare. NOBODY took KJC prior to 5.2. It had a movement snare and a cast time increase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Haste and movement speed penalty for casting on the move for all abilities was overpowered? Not even close. First iteration was not worth using, but the other talents were also lackluster except specific times using MFury was useful. Second iteration was just slightly underpowered(haste penalty was removed MS penalty kept) because movement speed reduction to cast while moving in a raid environment could end up killing you. It's funny the same people claiming that boot enchants can save your life would claim that the MS penalty on KJC was nothing when the MS penalty was potentially almost 4 times what a boot enchant adds.

    The third iteration of KJC was slightly overpowered. All spells, no penalty. The only reason I say slightly is that dps shamans were given the LB on the move baseline eventually and mages had low level talents that did similar to what the WoD version will do. This is a lvl 90 talent. It was supposed to be strong in MoP. I mean hell the mage lvl 90 talents let good players exceed what blizzard expected them to be able to achieve in dps even if the mages cried all day about them.

    The final MoP version of KJC would have been fair going into WoD even with shamans losing LB on the move. A talent to enable filler spells on the move that is your lvl 90 talent is not even remotely overpowered.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Like I said earlier, be prepared for ToC era dps for Warlocks. I mean Shamans sat and cried about their dps in ToC and ICC when locks were parsing on average slightly better than their lower of the 2 dps specs and that was for locks' top spec. The devs are basically tweeting like locks were the most overpowered class in history for the duration of MoP.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's the problem. They're doing locks just like they did in ToT. UVLS and Imp swarm both massively nerfed for locks. Not just one or the other. Same story is happening in WoD. Nerfing DPS AND mobility. So single target standstill will be on par possibly and mobility will be lower.
    Warlocks are up there in OPness. I dont ever remember a class being this insanely strong for an entire expac. And the 5.2 version of KJC was one of the most overpowered changes in a long time. Warlock damage was already insanely high, but being able to move freely and cast a full rotation? Yeah...

    And how are they doing locks like they did in ToT? UVLS and imp swarm deserved to be nerfed severely. 100% crit on a 1 minute dot that not only does damage, but also spawns an imp with each tick? That was a nerf that absolutely needed to happen. Lock mobility being nerfed is very minor. Spellcasters don't need to move around much. And for when they do, there are things like KJC and SWG.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crisius View Post
    Are people really using that "Warlock stationary DPS" is high as a justification for the lack of movement? How about no - warlocks are in fact the lowest single-target DPS on the beta even on a stationary fight. Every other class has at least one specc which is better than all three warlock specs. Can't wait for the next round of tuning.
    What are you basing "Warlocks are in fact the lowest single target dps on beta" on? And cry a river. Warlocks have been OP all of MoP.

  14. #214
    Hard to say that removing one arguably OP ability that we've only had for one expansion ruins the class lol.

    But if you want to say it sucks, I kind of agree. I support the idea of all ranged DPS being able to cast on the move in some form, eg cast your fillers on the move. Blizzard is fundamentally opposed to that model. Which kind of sucks because playing a lock with KJC or an ele sham was like having manacles taken off my hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Hard to say that removing one arguably OP ability that we've only had for one expansion ruins the class lol.

    But if you want to say it sucks, I kind of agree. I support the idea of all ranged DPS being able to cast on the move in some form, eg cast your fillers on the move. Blizzard is fundamentally opposed to that model. Which kind of sucks because playing a lock with KJC or an ele sham was like having manacles taken off my hands.
    OP?

    Early KJC was OP, what we had in 5.4 was not and with the removal of Fel Flame destro warlocks are now totally crippled, i can't see them doing well in PvE for WoD seeing how insanly much you need to move in a lot of fights in the new raids and even dungeons, blizzard didn't think this through.

  16. #216
    Bloodsail Admiral Moggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Yeah, Everyone took the 5.2 version. Where you could cast ur full rotation on the move with no snare. NOBODY took KJC prior to 5.2. It had a movement snare and a cast time increase.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Fact: Prior to 5.2, KJC was on of the only good talents to take, so of course most took it. MF was only used for a couple fights (hi2u2 Elegon) and AD was way too weak to even bother with. You could deal with the movement debuff easily since it was cheezed a lot. =P

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Warlocks are up there in OPness. I dont ever remember a class being this insanely strong for an entire expac. And the 5.2 version of KJC was one of the most overpowered changes in a long time. Warlock damage was already insanely high, but being able to move freely and cast a full rotation? Yeah...
    Another Fact: Warlocks, prior to 5.4 (and UVLS to a certain extent) were actually fairly balanced. They were strong, not over-the-top OP like what happened in SoO. It was one tier out of three for the xpac locks blew the competition away, but even then they dominated half the fights in SoO. The other half were/are spread fairly evenly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    And how are they doing locks like they did in ToT? UVLS and imp swarm deserved to be nerfed severely. 100% crit on a 1 minute dot that not only does damage, but also spawns an imp with each tick? That was a nerf that absolutely needed to happen. Lock mobility being nerfed is very minor. Spellcasters don't need to move around much. And for when they do, there are things like KJC and SWG.
    To some extent, you're correct about the whole UVLS and imp swarm nerf. Was it "deserved to be nerfed severely" well, no seeing as it became pointless playing demo after that. It goes a bit deeper and showed just how out of touch demo was far as actual damage.

    And you are correct, KJC nerfed isn't a deal breaker. I've raided since MC was a hot place to be back in Vanilla so it's easy to adjust, but peep do have valid points when you raid in WoD that the movement requirements are getting worse. Which invalidates your entire "Spellcasters don't need to move around much." argument because they move more than today's raid..

    And let's be very VERY clear. It's not "Spellcasters" it is only "Warlocks." The class can and will be fine without KJC, nobody's saything otherwise. However, couple that with the loss of Fel Flame makes no sense. Hell, Warlocks can't even kill totems, flags and such which is just silly vs. a Mage who lost no mobility, Boomkin, Shamans (they lost theirs but got a make up to help them) and Spriest, oh and Hunters. The response to the PvPers? Sic your pets... Every single QoL change made over the years, gone. It's amusing. =P

  17. #217
    I love how people are crying about KJC being OP when hunters have that now and mages do insane mobile dps with skill lance...but OMGLOLBBQ warlocks 1.5 years ago were crazy.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Maybe for all the peeps that started playing Locks in MoP.

    I just read the thread title and that is what I came here to say lol
    They were a class before it and a class after it.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    I just read the thread title and that is what I came here to say lol
    They were a class before it and a class after it.
    I had to pull this one out of the quote graveyard:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    The class got a major overhaul for MoP and rotations including the number of hard and instant cast spells changed. Damage sources changed. Most specs got new gameplay in the form of secondary resource generators and consumers.

    Comparing KjC/redesigned Warlocks to non-KjC/originally designed Warlocks is foolhardy and a completely false comparison.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I had to pull this one out of the quote graveyard:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

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