[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[hashtags]

Lazel recommending EmpS/DP?

WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO THE LAZEL I KNOW, FIEND?

As I have been there from the start of this thread it really feels like we have come a full circle now.

[cujoe]

Actually, I remember Lazel to point out that Blackhand might be the only boss where ES_DP might be a good option already a few pages back.

I have another question regarding SW. Does anyone actually use it together with Sera? I like it much more than DP acutally, because DP seems to procc like 4 times in a row whenever I am at full health and not actively tanking and there are zero proccs when I really need it (well, kind of). I can see why SW gets lower TMI in the sims but in the real world, is it so much worse than DP? The extra holy power makes Sera much more managable with sub 670 gear and when still learnign to play pally.

[Kortiah]

Do you guys have a pre-planned rotation on Gruul M ?

I was thinking something like

1st : HA with mastery trinket before hand + SotR
2nd : SotR + DP
3rd : SotR + Goak
4th : SotR + AD (do you even need to bother with SotR since AD will proc to save your ass...? Maybe stock on 3HoPo and AD, proc 12% hp then insta-WoG)

[celinamuna]

Speaking of bugs, I've just run into this bizarre situation on Mar'gok where I have Holy Shield talented but don't seem to be benefiting from it. My percentage of blocked attacks is roughly as you would expect without Holy Shield, and Holy Shield simply isn't triggering.

link logs ?

Lazel recommending EmpS/DP?

WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO THE LAZEL I KNOW, FIEND?

You do realize that his argument haven't changed ?
That on Mythic fights with damage patterns being diff, EmpS might be weaker than other talents.

[hashtags]

First of all why 4 stacks, do you want to die? Because that's how you die.

Assume you start tanking ( you SHOULD start tanking as prot paladin , if not , change it)

First stack , ironbark (or any 20%) + sotr , second stack , 30% sac/vigil + sotr + 20% dp/ironbark , 3rd stack buble+ taunt.

You start tanking after that point , you want back to back 20-30% cds (vigi>vigi is what i am taking here) but you can take sac>ironbark etc.

After 2nd cd ends , boss phases, now your co-tank is tanking boss first and you are doing slices.

Again , first stack 20% + sotr , second stack guardian + sotr , third stack sotr + AD and healing tonic right afterwards, now you are tanking again and this is where your HA comes up again (also where you should use your 2nd pot) and it is back to first rotation like on pull.

This is with 2 tanks tactic.

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Haha I told you before it was probably the only fight I would recommend + use empowered seals on

I don't have anything against the talent , I tried it on that boss on heroic the first week and liked how it turned out , it is just below other 2 talents on other bosses (arguably better than HS on gruul assuming)

Thanks for the tips. Any tips for Oregorger & Beast lord?

[Kortiah]

First of all why 4 stacks, do you want to die? Because that's how you die.

By tanking you mean soak the slices? I'm confused about your "you start tanking after that point" later on.

Well how do you get rid off the Overwhelming blows then?

We only did 5-6 pulls tonight, but we were under the impression we'd need to soak 4 for the debuff to fade.

We had 2 groups soaking.

I pull the boss. DK co-tank taunts for 2 slices on G1. Then move over to G2 and taunt for 2 slices there.
We reverse roles, and continue... We didn't get to try much times and it was mostly tries to test how much cooldowns we'd need per slice.

Soaking 3 stacks each, do you not have to do some weird shit to lose Overwhelming blows?

[hashtags]

Oregorger , you start tanking , first acid torrent you have sotr for 20 + secs or more + DP glyphed , second torrent your co-tank takes , third torrent you will AD with sotr , 4th torrent your co-tank takes , 5th torrent goak + sotr + dp , 6th torrent your co tank takes and boss phases (I think? cant remember) if you get 7th torrent anyway ask for 30% cd and use DP + sotr on that last torrent.

Also remember to ask for a shield from your disc priest.

Regarding beastlord , I play with sera + divine purpose with consecrator , final wrath & DP. Just make sure you dont use seraphim on pull (otherwise its timer will be screwd up for the whole fight) and also make sure to have used seraphim BEFORE pack beast gets to melee range so you can put 1-2 sotr while having seraphim up , save holy power for it. Also use DP inside seraphim inside pack beast , completely fuck up seraphim rotation , it isn't important on this fight.

I popped my main cds (ad/goak) randomly (most of the time , when 4th epicenter spawns and pack beasts comes at same time while I am tanking Faultline , usually some damage there which forces you to use loh/pot/cds. Best way to counter this part is to use seraphim + goak + 2x sotr along with DP when pack beast gets to melee range)

After that there is no tank damage (I tank boss all the time and my co-tank brings the pack beasts to melee range , considering I can reset rend & tear stacks with bop/buble so I basically have boss on me all the time)

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Okay , you do 3 groups , group A , group B , group C. This fight is ALL about how you tank it. 2 tanking is hectic as fuck so much damage on tanks but yeah.

You start tanking first , first slice is on A , before slice comes your co tank taunts and puts the slice on group A , group A now has 40 secs debuff. You taunt back , your co-tank moves over to GROUP B and taunts for the slice , you taunt back , your co-tank moves over to GROUP C and taunts and KEEPS THE BOSS.

At this point , group A has 10 secs duration , group B has 20 and group C has 30 ( this point , as in before 4th slice comes in)

The 4th slice will be YOU taunting to GROUP C ( so group C takes 2 stacks of slice in a row ) and this is the point you use Sotr + 20% cd.

Now you are doing the job your co-tank was doing the first 3 slices EXCEPT now ;

Group A reseted their stacks
Group B has 10 secs remaining
Group C has 20 secs remaining ( these timers are exact right before a new slice comes off)

What you do is , after you've taunted to GROUP C and get them 2 stacks of slice , you move over to GROUP A and put 1 stack on them , ask for 30% cd + sotr + DP. And for the 3rd slice you buble taunt on GROUP B. NOW you are tanking the boss and you don't have jackshit of cds to use. This is the point you ask for back to back 30% cd (I use vigilance> vigilance)

What your co-tank will do now is he will taunt AGAIN on GROUP B because GROUP C haven't reseted their stacks , so he taunts on GROUP B , you take the boss back , 10 secs after GROUP C will have stacks reset exactly before slash comes and he will taunt on GROUP C AND at this point boss phases.

NOW your dk starts tanking the boss and you do the job he did in VERY BEGINING (when you give bloodlust and stuff)

When this phase ends , all groups' stacks reset so you start from the begining ;

Taunt slice on GROUP A , move over to GROUP B and taunt slice , move over to GROUP C and taunt slice AND keep the boss ( THIS IS THE POINT WHERE YOUR HA COMES BACK UP > use it with 2nd pot!)

Now your dk is going to taunt on GROUP C (2 stacks) then GROUP A then GROUP B - after taking the slice to group B he keeps the boss and now you are doing slices.

First slice on GROUP B (they take 2 stacks this time again ) with DP + sotr , second slice on GROUP C with guardian + sotr , third slice on GROUP A with AD+ sotr (you can use bop here too if you want to instead of AD)

Now he phases and usually berserks here.

Cool Thanks. Really appreciate it.

[Kortiah]

Gruul stuff

Thanks for the very detailed answer.

When's the point where Overwhelming blows fade? If there's any... (maybe the bubble takes them off?)

We also thought of using a 3rd tank, depending on how well our DK will survive the slices (seemed to have quite a lot of issue tonight, due to him derping). That probably trivialize quite a bit (esp. since that would be a BrMonk "lol guard, purify, next slice pls").

[Emrus]

Oregorger , you start tanking , first acid torrent you have sotr for 20 + secs or more + DP glyphed , second torrent your co-tank takes , third torrent you will AD with sotr , 4th torrent your co-tank takes , 5th torrent goak + sotr + dp , 6th torrent your co tank takes and boss phases (I think? cant remember) if you get 7th torrent anyway ask for 30% cd and use DP + sotr on that last torrent.

Just adding to this if it wasn't clear. You can use DP twice in a row if you cast it slightly early on one. You can even use it 3 times in a row if you time it perfectly, however since you can only ever use it on 3 out of 4 casts I recommend going with the easy way. My way of cds are 1st: SotR + DP(early), 3rd Sotr + DP, 5th Sotr + Goak, 7th Sotr + DP + AD. Also bubble have frequently been reported to work for torrent and ensures maximum damage reduction. So, an option would be: 1st: SotR + DP(early) + trinkets, 3rd: SotR + DP + AD, 5th: SotR + Bubble, 7th: SotR + DP + Goak.

I haven't tested HoP, but I would assume it would work fine.

[Deleted]

You have the most confusing Gruul strat I have ever seen Lazel.

On the PTR (1 week before BRF came out) it was possible to do 1 stack on 3 groups, unfortunately they changed that so most guilds do 3 stacks in 2 groups. Most of the top 10 guilds (I think, not 100% on this) 3 tanked this fight as well - no reason not to provided you have the dps.

[celinamuna]

You have the most confusing Gruul strat I have ever seen Lazel.

On the PTR (1 week before BRF came out) it was possible to do 1 stack on 3 groups, unfortunately they changed that so most guilds do 3 stacks in 2 groups. Most of the top 10 guilds (I think, not 100% on this) 3 tanked this fight as well - no reason not to provided you have the dps.

We 2 tanked it, with 2 stacks in 3 groups.
3rd group was 2 rogues + warrior (going def stance) + warlock, thus take almost no damage for the majority of it.

[Lifire]

I find we are over explaining Gruul. We approached in the Paragon method as well as a few other guilds who did it similarily, no point using 2 tanks, use 3 and have them min max dps (Harsh Words/Breath of Sindragosa etc) or at least we did when the dps check was fairly important.

You can always min max dps (HOTW druids, ranged stand in the "safe-zones" for a majority portion of the fight, tank dps etc so run 3 tanks for safety)

Ultimately: if you correctly handle berserk you can have 30-40seconds sometimes more into Berserk

Slice 1 - Group 1 - Warrior (Paladin pulls)
Slice 2 - Group 2 - DK (Warrior tanks)
Slice 3 - Group 2 - DK (Warrior tanks)

Slice 4 - Group 3 - Paladin (DK tanks)
Slice 5 - Group 1 - Warrior (Paladin tanks)
Slice 6 - Group 1 - Warrior (Paladin tanks)

Slice 7 - Group 2 - DK (Warrior tanks)
Slice 8 - Group 2 - DK (Warrior tanks)
Slice 9 - Group 3 - Paladin (DK tanks)

This is my weak aura I used and pretty much sums it up. Ideally I should have taken the Warrior´s spot as I can mitigate the slices better than a warrior but we ended up doing this way.

Group 1: Mages/Hunters/2 Healers etc, people who want to stand still and can deal with multiple slices well
Group 2: Melee + Healer
Group 3: Shit classes/rest

Warrior: Will take the most slice & melee damage from boss
Paladin: Will take the least slice damage & medium melee from boss
DK: Will take the most slice damage but medium melee from boss

The key thing here is to deal with Berserk: once you reach Slice 3 the 3rd time around, the DK (or w/e tank) should solo soak (on our previous kill he managed 4 then 5 with Purgatory). Thus, the debuffs will run out on Group 1, Group 3 will never get a debuff and I dont recall about Group 2.

This enables only one Group (melee..that can cloak/immunity anyways) to have debuffs killing them while the rest of the raid spread out.

DK dies > Paladin taunt bubble can handle stacks & 1-2 slices then dies > Warrior gets boss and is leaping into a corner > Boss goes on a dps and then triggers a down phase giving you full uptime to kill the boss

Note: I feel the most damaging ability on that fight was Overwhelming Blows, mitigating Slices is just about timing CDs and you can have so many including BOPS too etc - We felt we needed externals on the tank tanking 2 sets of slices after he took 2 debuffs but over time gear obviously helps

[Accurate]

If you really want to cheese gruul you can just solo soak all slices minus 2 per cycle (slice 2 and 10 on raid). Then just 3 tank and underheal it cause there's no real damage, means you need 2 DK tanks running defile and such for damage reductions (plus a few other really lame glyphs that hurt your tanks dps quite a bit) but makes the fight quite a bit easier and allowed us to kill the fight the first week in under 8 attempts. Can post logs or explain CD order if anyone wants.

[Accurate]

Gruul 3 tank is pussy tactic.

No reason not to really, kind of like 3 tanking mar'gok. Especially if you're doing the full solo soak slices. You may not have to do it by any means but it makes the fight easier.

[Kortiah]

I find we are over explaining Gruul. We approached in the Paragon method as well as a few other guilds who did it similarily, no point using 2 tanks, use 3 and have them min max dps (Harsh Words/Breath of Sindragosa etc) or at least we did when the dps check was fairly important.

Wait...that's 3 tanks and 3 groups... Isn't that overkill?

[Jackielope]

Wait...that's 3 tanks and 3 groups... Isn't that overkill?

Better overkill than underkill.

[Donatist]

We actually just pulled Gruul this week for about 2 hours on mythic and did 3 grps two tanks but we soaked it for 4 slices.....gg. Wil def swap to 3 slices this week to make tanking a bit less OMFG 5 hp left. But overall it wasnt a complex fight with 3 grps i thought it made the petrify mechanic a non factor. We did kill it too.

I never found the actual melees to put me in danger tho howcome you dont recommend BoP + Taunt for one of the slices in place of AD, i have trouble using AD because of the follow up fire hit.

[Theck]

Regarding Oregorger & Acid Torrent: Note that Divine Shield and Hand of Protection both work on it, causing it to deal the minimum damage value. And thanks to Unbreakable Spirit, you can bubble one AT every phase. On our mythic kill, we each did a sequence of (Bubble, HA+Sera+Sac, DP+GAnK+Sac) for the first round and (HoP, HA+Sera+Sac, Bubble) for the second round. AD+SotR+Sac if we got a fourth, usually (or external BoP). Last round we sort of freestyled, but was some combination of (bubble, GAnK, AD+DP+Sac).

(Note we have two paladin tanks and a ret and holy with Clemency for a stupid number of hands to throw around, YMMV).

[MFDOOM]

Has anyone else been healing exorbitantly high? Usually, whenever I tank bosses, I vary from 15k-30k in HPS.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/combat...ort/49#v=1,d=1

For example, on Operator Thogar Heroic, I pulled 27k HPS, and my GM as a Prot Pally pulled significantly less.

Hold your tongue if you think I'm sacrificing mitigation for HPS, I had a better mitigation ranking than my GM, and took less damage. http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/combat...ort/49#v=0,d=2

Is this just me being awesome, or is my GM doing something wrong here?

[Theck]

Edit: stupid me, didn't add healers to the profile, so all health triggers can't work because health is always in the minus

I usually add a healing raid event to help correct for such things:

raid_events+=/heal,cooldown=10,to_pct=90

That said, I think using an incoming_damage conditional is better than a health.pct conditional here. We're trying to model stochastic damage patterns, so to really get optimal TMI gain you want to use that massive heal to offset a period of large incoming_damage, regardless of what your actual health percent is at the time of the spike. A health.pct conditional would make more sense if we were actually counting deaths.

One thought for improvement is to do something like incoming_damage_4500ms>health.max*0.8 and fool around with the window and health threshold until you get better results. Remember that TMI is calculated over a 6-second window by default, so you're trying to optimize around that window.

Firing off a heal based on taking ~30% of your health in damage in a single 1.5-second period will probably tend towards using WoG too frequently (and thus at lower Bastion stacks), and in cases where it wasn't needed (ex: unmitigated hit, dodge, parry, parry). My guess is that a longer window and higher threshold will reserve it for use in the cases where it really matters, like a string of 3-4 hits in a row.