Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Azrile]

One is correct and even acknowledged by your original source, Azrile. Even if they planned to outsource the entirety of their game, to say that you can't create a MMO in Unity is entirely false.

Where is your proof, point to the game. Show me a UNITY MMORPG similar to WOW that you can play with a couple hundred people online at the same time. I think GV and Crowfall will do it someday.... someday... but for all we know, Crowfall might decide it is too much work and just jump to Hero Engine and GV might give up because of their server isssues.

Like someone else said, you can build a space shuttle out of a beer can.. Can I refine and revisit my comment?

It is impossible for FC to build ToA using Unity....

[unholytestament]

I'm not saying my argument exists in a vacuum. Did the initial statement of "It's impossible to make a MMO in Unity" exist in a vacuum? All I am saying is, that initial statement was false. You like to quote a fraction of a sentence and then spew non-sense. All I ask is that you prove "It's impossible to make a MMO in Unity" wrong? If not, you are wasting both or our times.

I won't tell you it's false. Neither will I tell you it's true. Your leading questions do a disservice to the topic at hand. What I have been telling you is that it's complicated, because game development (especially for something like an MMO) is a very technical field, and Azrile is far too longwinded to simply state "it's impossible". His posts are always long and full of explanations. He has discussed the pros and cons of Unity and Hero Engine.

And you keep brushing aside all of these explanations. A lot of "fluff" and whatnot.

And you're wasting your own time. Don't project your issues onto others.

[Azrile]

I am only longwinded because Google likes lengthy content and I feel it is our only shot at taking away the #1 spot when someone searches for Trials of Ascension.

JK.

[unholytestament]

Besides, most of the discussion about Unity was in pointing out how such an easy to use program seems to be confounding the developers at FC. It took them forever to accomplish what anyone with any experience (or maybe even total novices) could do in a couple days, and that was with them begging for help on forums.

Hell, in checking back at the front of the topic that was one of the first parts of this discussion I participated in.

[hknt]

Can't decide if it's sarcasm, irony, joking, trolling, contradictory or convoluted.

...for God's sake man.... please don't make me explain my jokes... I don't want to loose faith in MMOC.

My ´proof´ changed the game

Arguably, but it was a sinking ship either way and they'll still be more attempts, not to mention other "developer" dorks who get the same bright idea. They just need a new banner to fly, for us loss of reputation is quite permanent, automatic labeling as "slander" helps all those other wannabe programmers.

Ah well, what's done is done. Let's just be more careful in the future, sufficient amount of legit doubt is just as good as a verdict anyways.

[Woogs]

Where is your proof, point to the game. Show me a UNITY MMORPG similar to WOW that you can play with a couple hundred people online at the same time. I think GV and Crowfall will do it someday.... someday... but for all we know, Crowfall might decide it is too much work and just jump to Hero Engine and GV might give up because of their server isssues.

Like someone else said, you can build a space shuttle out of a beer can.. Can I refine and revisit my comment?

It is impossible for FC to build ToA using Unity....

First off, lets agree that this is different from your initial statement that it isn't possible to build a MMO in Unity. You think that GV/Crowfall will do it someday, but not on release? Those titles being MMOs, they would release without MMO aspects?

You're right that they might change their engine, who knows. Previously, you praised them for their MMO experience and ability to alter Unity to their needs; I don't think they would chose Unity if they weren't remotely capable of achieving their goal.

The analogy you chose to latch on to is ridiculous. Build a space shuttle out of beer cans. In my mind I don't need to refute that when it comes to being a analogy if Unity can be used to create a MMO. Too each thier own.

EDIT: Sorry, initially quoted the wrong post.

[Kyanion]

That was never the point I was arguing, and you are sidestepping a bit. What is the difference between my blanket statement "You can create a MMO in Unity" vs "You can't create a MMO in Unity"? One is correct and even acknowledged by your original source, Azrile. Even if they planned to outsource the entirety of their game, to say that you can't create a MMO in Unity is entirely false.

I've been following this thread for quite awhile and never responded because there wasn't anything to respond to personally ... until Azrile's total backpedal on most of the claims he initially made. He made claims that manifested into nothing. If you can't hold him accountable for his claims then you are just as bad as the "kool-aid drinkers" over at ToA.

Well that is just the thing, the statements made are all very complex. The main statements a lot of us were focused on was the ability to outsource a MMO, the possibility of faked forum accounts/hype by use of Alexa data and the sheer drop off of forum comments, video likes and general hype that has crashed down a few months before the 2nd KS. The build a mmo on Unity thing was a smaller issue out of them, and honestly I still think most companies can't make a MMO via Unity without plunking down SERIOUS cash and hiring people that know how to do so. So yeah a 600k KS could NOT make a mmo if they had to use Unity. No proof required really.

We DID flame Azrile for some of the things he was unable to show due to the legal reasons but the claims about Unity/MMO right now are still true in large scale MMOs that is.

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I was just happy that he replied at all. For what it's worth, I don't buy anything he says anymore. Like ToA, it's very flowery and optimistic but with little substance. I don't think we'll ever fully get to know what the real story that happened, a bit like how a company that has been involved in something controversial (IDK like the BP Oil Spill) will always only partially tell the truth to put them in the best light possible.

Yeah that is a pretty fair comparison I'd say. Take the 'blame' but not really take the 'blame' at the same time.

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Nah, he is saying the truth. If I had never mentioned ´proof´ about the dev- alts and just did some links to some crazy posts this thread would have been much better off. And he is absolutely right, my lack of ´proof´ hurts the credibility of this thread. He is saying he hates me because I diminish an otherwise awesome endeavor. He is right. Hate justified, I accept it.

I will counter with this. My ´proof´ changed the game. Because I said I had proof, and they knew I had proof, their forums changed and their youtube changed. People like Priest, Fornax and Andriod were no longer getting overwhelmed with ´omg, the devs are the greatest evah´ threads when they presented their critical posts. I read a lot of Priests posts from back before the first KS and he made some good points.. but his threads were immediately filled with 99 posts saying he was wrong and praise for the devs.

Yup that is one of the things where 'proof' does not really have to be shown. Why? Because of how sweeping things changed over there. I easily point out the Physics Based Rendering thread and how fucking over the top it was. Were there ANY posts like that after this MMO-C thread really got steam? Hell fucking no there weren't. Video views were down in MASSIVE numbers, youtube comments nearly non-existent until ToA disabled all comments. Then we have the fucked up Alexa data and the changes that underwent over the last few months. None of this is hard PROOF but there is enough circumstantial evidence and smoking guns to know there is something going on.

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...for God's sake man.... please don't make me explain my jokes... I don't want to loose faith in MMOC.



Arguably, but it was a sinking ship either way and they'll still be more attempts, not to mention other "developer" dorks who get the same bright idea. They just need a new banner to fly, for us loss of reputation is quite permanent, automatic labeling as "slander" helps all those other wannabe programmers.

Ah well, what's done is done. Let's just be more careful in the future, sufficient amount of legit doubt is just as good as a verdict anyways.

Who exactly lost reputation? Not the MMO-C thread that is for sure, it did exactly what it needed to do, call attention to something shady and let people know about a possible scam. Nor do we need to 'be more careful' in the future. Where there is smoke there is a fire somewhere, and there was smoke all over FC's project.

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First off, lets agree that this is different from your initial statement that it isn't possible to build a MMO in Unity. You think that GV/Crowfall will do it someday, but not on release? Those titles being MMOs, they would release without MMO aspects?

You're right that they might change their engine, who knows. Previously, you praised them for their MMO experience and ability to alter Unity to their needs; I don't think they would chose Unity if they weren't remotely capable of achieving their goal.

The analogy you chose to latch on to is ridiculous. Build a space shuttle out of beer cans. In my mind I don't need to refute that when it comes to being a analogy if Unity can be used to create a MMO. Too each thier own.

EDIT: Sorry, initially quoted the wrong post.

Umm there are plenty of failed MMOs and games that tried to use Unity and then realized "Oh shit we can't do this without tons of money/changes". There is a chance the same thing could happen to these larger games being worked on. We won't know until they are ready for release.

[dextersmith]

I'm not saying my argument exists in a vacuum. Did the initial statement of "It's impossible to make a MMO in Unity" exist in a vacuum? All I am saying is, that initial statement was false. You like to quote a fraction of a sentence and then spew non-sense. All I ask is that you prove "It's impossible to make a MMO in Unity" wrong? If not, you are wasting both of our times.

A dwarf walks into the meeting room, shouldering a massive axe. He points at unholytestament.-Oh stop your flaming ya bloody daft bastard. Had it right up to 'ere with you. -the dwarf reaches as high as he can- Critiquing and advising be one thing, good sur, but what you be doing is on a 'ole 'nother level. Now, either be civil like or get ou'. An' if ye won't civilize your self, or leave peacefully, -looks pleasantly at the axe- I can always use me good old axe.

I believe the answer is, you'd have to alter and add so much, it wouldn't be Unity anymore.

[Woogs]

Umm there are plenty of failed MMOs and games that tried to use Unity and then realized "Oh shit we can't do this without tons of money/changes". There is a chance the same thing could happen to these larger games being worked on. We won't know until they are ready for release.

Can you cite some? Cause I can cite some that have launched that used Unity as the client.

[dextersmith]

Where is your proof, ...

irony
/10char

[Azrile]

.Arguably, but it was a sinking ship either way and they'll still be more attempts, not to mention other "developer" dorks who get the same bright idea. They just need a new banner to fly, for us loss of reputation is quite permanent, automatic labeling as "slander" helps all those other wannabe programmers.

I agree with this.

But I think my counterpoint was missed. We did give you proof that they were faking their comments on Youtube and the forums.. the proof is that they reacted to our claims and stopped doing it. I have yet to see anyone explain why the amount of posts on their forums dropped by almost 90% at the same time they were finally showing real progress with Teddy´s work? Unless I missed it, I feel there is no reason that could have happened except the devs knew we were matching their posts to IP addresses and any comments they made would just be more fodder for us. I hate to mention another fansite, but look at mmorpg.com since we blew the whistle and talked about our proof, almost every single thread has been started by the same person ( the official PR person from ToA) and most of those threads have no comments.

It is hard to say what would have happened without this thread. Hindsight is 20/20 and we pretty much know now that even with Teddy they had enough problems that the KS was going to be garbage.. but we did not know that last spring. $60k is a lot of money .. the fact that they were too incompetent to use it was just luck.

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irony
/10char

lol.. I love these little digs at me. I totally deserve them and they do make me LOL.

[Kyanion]

Can you cite some? Cause I can cite some that have launched that used Unity as the client.

MMOs? More than 30+ people online at a time? That run as well as WoW can? Cause I don't care much about ones that have graphical/FPS issues.

As far as failed MMOs/attempted MMOs with unity? I think finding that type of information would be tough if those types of companies folded and closed up information.

[Woogs]

I believe the answer is, you'd have to alter and add so much, it wouldn't be Unity anymore.

I don't see how netcode makes a local graphic engine unrecognizable.

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MMOs? More than 30+ people online at a time? That run as well as WoW can? Cause I don't care much about ones that have graphical/FPS issues.

As far as failed MMOs/attempted MMOs with unity? I think finding that type of information would be tough if those types of companies folded and closed up information.

I was looking for failed attempts at using Unity as a MMO platform, as your post stated.

[Kyanion]

I don't see how netcode make a local graphic engine unrecognizable.

Well I mean changing massive parts of Unity to make it do something like that, wouldn't really make it Unity anymore. It would be like a Unity+ or UnityMod or something. Still uses parts of Unity but isnt Unity in the whole anymore.

[Woogs]

Well I mean changing massive parts of Unity to make it do something like that, wouldn't really make it Unity anymore. It would be like a Unity+ or UnityMod or something. Still uses parts of Unity but isnt Unity in the whole anymore.

Have you used Unity before? Just asking.

[Kyanion]

I don't see how netcode make a local graphic engine unrecognizable.

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I was looking for failed attempts at using Unity as a MMO platform, as your post stated.

And I don't feel like devoting a few hours to go find all the information for you. They are out there, ToA for example, lolz

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Have you used Unity before? Just asking.

Have you? A lot of this is speculation and talking about it. How many massive MMOs do you know of that used Unity? I'll be here next year or two when you find the answer.

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When you make big changes to the core it is no longer the core. The massive amounts of changes Crowfall would be doing...you can still call it Unity but it sure as fuck isn't the Unity most people would be using.

[Woogs]

Yes, I have used Unity to mess around and ... . I was only asking because you seem so adamant about the features of Unity. Massive MMOS is redundant and I've already stated MMOs I've found that have used Unity. Most of you have leapfrogged off of Azrile's initial claims which he has even backpedaled on.

[Azrile]

I was looking for failed attempts at using Unity as a MMO platform, as your post stated.

Go to Youtube and type ´Unity MMORPG´ go to the Unity Forums and type ´Unity MMORPG´ There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of projects that were started to be ´MMORPGs´ that just disappeared when they actually tried to go add the MM part to it. We´ve linked to many of those projects already in this thread.

Or better yet, go to the Unity Asset store and search for MMORPG ´kits´ and then read the comments under those kits.. for more entertainment, go to the forums of those kits.

Making WOW using Unity has been talked about for 5 years, and nobody has gotten close to releasing it yet. Gloria Victis is in a kinda open alpha, but again, having a bit of a problem putting the MM into MMORPG.

[Kotori125]

I want to say this: there is a difference between using Unity to make a MMO(RPG) like WOW, and modifying/altering the Unity engine in order to make a MMO(RPG) like WOW work effectively. It is exactly like taking a beer can and making a space shuttle out of it; the result is drastically different than what you initially started with due to all the alterations. Compare that with taking a space shuttle and making another space shuttle out of it (Unity vs. Hero Engine, or Unity vs. engines already capable of MMORPG development). Or perhaps even taking space shuttle materials and making a space shuttle out of it (creating your own engine). I believe that is the claim that Azrile is making, and what that comparison means with the beer can means. I think Azrile said this same statement somewhere in the thread: Can you really call a heavily modified Unity engine, that is much different than what the Unity engine started with before alterations, Unity?

For some reason I can only think of a pizza anology...If you have a pepperoni pizza, and added 'all toppings' to the pizza, can you still call it a pepperoni pizza. Some would say its a pepperoni pizza with everything else because it did start as a pepperoni pizza. Others would call it as it is, a 'everything' pizza, as it is no longer just a pepperoni pizza. But who will call that a pepperoni pizza when it is no longer a pepperoni pizza? Base vs. base + modified vs. different name.

I think its all semantics really.

[Kyanion]

Thank you Gattsu, you made the point I was trying to make to explain that