1. #3581
    I thought they said apexis gear and crafted gear?

  2. #3582
    They did. Worst part is the line about the crafted is BEFORE the apexis part so I have no idea how you could possibly miss it.

    At the same time, we will be increasing the item level of the new highest-tier crafted and Apexis vendor items by 5, in order to keep their power unchanged relative to the Foundry raid itemization.

  3. #3583
    Well, I'm derpy sometimes guys... I'll just show myself out now. *walks away in shame*

  4. #3584
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Well, I'm derpy sometimes guys... I'll just show myself out now. *walks away in shame*
    Don't worry, this thread can get saltier than an eel pie sometimes.

  5. #3585
    So... Vial / BFD for HA/Sera? I find it odd that Vial looks to be that much better than TTT.

    Edit: Also is this for all mythic trinkets or all 685 trinkets?

  6. #3586
    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    So... Vial / BFD for HA/Sera? I find it odd that Vial looks to be that much better than TTT.

    Edit: Also is this for all mythic trinkets or all 685 trinkets?
    Hmm I'm confused about that trinket list as well. Some of those trinkets aren't even for Prot. Like Ironspike chewtoy that gives Int and Spirit?

  7. #3587
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    Trinket re-sim, with +5 ilvl to all BRF items and to the 4/4 Knight's Badge. Also including an ilvl 685 Stone of Fire.

    Trinkets with DP_HS

    Trinkets with HA_Sera

    Trinkets with DP_EmpS
    Btw can you make the same chart we talked about earlier with the HA/Sera sync ?

    Also as pointed out by our local paragon fanboy, fragi went dps instead of prot paladin. I know he stops by here every once in a while, and some of you might know him so what's his reasoning behind that ?

    I know that at the end of SoO i personally main switched from tank to dps, simply because (in my opinion) DPS had a much larger potential to "carry" raid teams with the neutering of tank mechanics and removal of vengeance, which resulted in exceptional dps becoming a lot more valuable than exceptional tanks (at least in my opinion) esp on early progression where DPS checks exist.

    Was interested if we could get to comment on it, or if other people considered something similar.

  8. #3588
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanadei View Post
    Don't worry, this thread can get saltier than an eel pie sometimes.
    Have you ever had an eel pie to know if its salty? I want to try it now.

    Also I'm sure someone out there might be confused about the TMI ratings on the trinket chart. Always remember TMI is heavily influenced by stam so they're technically only top if you need the stam to live. This is a general disclaimer that some people miss from time to time. So keep that in mind!

  9. #3589
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Btw can you make the same chart we talked about earlier with the HA/Sera sync ?

    Also as pointed out by our local paragon fanboy, fragi went dps instead of prot paladin. I know he stops by here every once in a while, and some of you might know him so what's his reasoning behind that ?

    I know that at the end of SoO i personally main switched from tank to dps, simply because (in my opinion) DPS had a much larger potential to "carry" raid teams with the neutering of tank mechanics and removal of vengeance, which resulted in exceptional dps becoming a lot more valuable than exceptional tanks (at least in my opinion) esp on early progression where DPS checks exist.

    Was interested if we could get to comment on it, or if other people considered something similar.
    I think it had to do with them wanting to run double Monk tank but needing an extra hunter, Ilonii being a more than competent Brewmaster, and Frag having played hunter in the past. I can't say I'm 100% sure, though, but that's the reasoning as I understood it.

    What surprises me more than anything, honestly, is that Ilonii and not Kaneli ended up playing BrM with Sejta - Kaneli tanked for Depraved for its entire existence AFAIK and was excellent, in my opinion - but perhaps they feel his skills at WW would be wasted playing BrM.

  10. #3590
    I'm looking over my guilds Askmrrobot logs from last nights raid, and while I know it's not really the perfect site to analyze individual performances in terms of their own rotations and mitigation etc, but still I gotta ask for anyone using the site, what constitutes "Tank healing"? Is it our own self heals like SS and WoG heals, or is it how much healing the tank is taking in from healers around him?

  11. #3591
    Deleted
    Perhaps a dumb question, but the top ranking DPS trinkets for HA/Sera are all reliant on on-use mechanics. That means you can't use them both at the same time, correct? will Vial + TTT still be the 2 best trinkets for DPS then? And which one to sync with HA.

    Maybe Im missing something

  12. #3592
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    Perhaps a dumb question, but the top ranking DPS trinkets for HA/Sera are all reliant on on-use mechanics. That means you can't use them both at the same time, correct? will Vial + TTT still be the 2 best trinkets for DPS then? And which one to sync with HA.

    Maybe Im missing something
    Well, AFAIK they only put each other on a 10-second ICD so technically you could have a second on-use trinket up with HA for roughly 8 seconds. Double on-use still seems a thoroughly mediocre idea unless you need it as a pseudo-CD or something, though.

  13. #3593
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Well, AFAIK they only put each other on a 10-second ICD so technically you could have a second on-use trinket up with HA for roughly 8 seconds. Double on-use still seems a thoroughly mediocre idea unless you need it as a pseudo-CD or something, though.
    Its a cooldown based on how long their buff lasts. It will put the other on a 20sec CD.

  14. #3594
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Its a cooldown based on how long their buff lasts. It will put the other on a 20sec CD.
    So basically Vial + Forgemaster would be best?

    @Theck you have any considerations regarding the best combination for dmg?

  15. #3595
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    So basically Vial + Forgemaster would be best?

    @Theck you have any considerations regarding the best combination for dmg?
    For DPS, VoCS and BFD would likely be best - with HA, anyway. HoSS and BFD would probably be better with any DP or SW spec.
    Last edited by mmoc312bb4353b; 2015-03-17 at 11:12 AM.

  16. #3596
    Hey Theck, I'm assuming your chart is using mythic trinkets, right? If it's not too much trouble, could you do a comparison between heroic BRF trinkets and mythic Highmaul trinkets?

    I think there's a fair bit of people that only raid normal/heroic but had plenty of time to get lucky with their Highmaul caches and thus have mythic Highmaul trinkets but none from mythic BRF.

    Also, WTF is Petrified Flesheating Spore? I looked it up on wowhead, and it has the ilvl of Highmaul gear, but I can't find it in the dungeon journal and there's very few comments on its wowhead page, one of which says that it doesn't exist.
    Last edited by OrcsRLame; 2015-03-17 at 01:25 PM.

  17. #3597
    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    So... Vial / BFD for HA/Sera? I find it odd that Vial looks to be that much better than TTT.

    Edit: Also is this for all mythic trinkets or all 685 trinkets?
    Aaaand I just noticed that somehow Vial is worse for TMI than TTT if you run DP/HS. This is really not making sense to me, since TTT's on use should be much better sync'd with HA than Vial.

  18. #3598
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlemaster View Post
    Always remember TMI is heavily influenced by stam so they're technically only top if you need the stam to live. This is a general disclaimer that some people miss from time to time. So keep that in mind!
    Stamina will always be better for TMI than any other stat until the damage incoming is so low such that the extra stamina doesn't really proportionally affect the spikes. The Stamina trinkets will always be best for survivability provided your healers can heal the damage. They just won't be useful for DTPS

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    Aaaand I just noticed that somehow Vial is worse for TMI than TTT if you run DP/HS. This is really not making sense to me, since TTT's on use should be much better sync'd with HA than Vial.
    Well the majority of the TMI will come from the time when you don't have the procs up. Simply because it looks at spikes across the whole fight, the strength should be 'better' in some cases for general survivability and provided you don't overheal the Strength is far better than Mastery as a defensive stat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    Perhaps a dumb question, but the top ranking DPS trinkets for HA/Sera are all reliant on on-use mechanics. That means you can't use them both at the same time, correct? will Vial + TTT still be the 2 best trinkets for DPS then? And which one to sync with HA.

    Maybe Im missing something
    They're all simmed separately, so when looking at the list, for any HA combo I would assume that you want 1 on-use and 1 proc trinket for max dps. I wouldn't know for TMI, but I have a feeling you simply wouldn't take double on-use because it would generally be more clunky.

  19. #3599
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaint View Post
    Hmm I'm confused about that trinket list as well. Some of those trinkets aren't even for Prot. Like Ironspike chewtoy that gives Int and Spirit?
    I just included every trinket from T17, because inevitably someone asks "what about this Int trinket with a relevant proc" so I have to re-run the sim anyway. Though I agree, Ironspike Chew Toy is probably completely irrelevant since neither of the stats affect us. I just didn't look that closely at them to notice it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Btw can you make the same chart we talked about earlier with the HA/Sera sync ?
    This was the PBE vs TTT thing, right? I have to look and see if I still have that setup lying around. Although another option is just to prune the irrelevant/subpar trinkets from the list and sim all of the 2-trinket combos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Candlemaster View Post
    Also I'm sure someone out there might be confused about the TMI ratings on the trinket chart. Always remember TMI is heavily influenced by stam so they're technically only top if you need the stam to live. This is a general disclaimer that some people miss from time to time. So keep that in mind!
    You literally just said "they're only technically best for survival if you need to survive."

    Stam is one of your best survival stats, bar none, and has been for years, despite ill-informed people shouting that it turns you into a mana sponge (it doesn't). It just sucks that it gives you no DPS, unlike pretty much every other stat nowadays. If a tank is worried about survival, then stam is relevant. If they aren't, then they're probably trying to determine the most efficient trades of stamina for other DPS stats. Either way the stam rankings are relevant.

    I mean sure, if you're stacking stamina in 690+ gear for like, heroic dungeons, you're doing it wrong. But that has nothing to do with the sim results and everything to do with a tank that doesn't really understand what they're doing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    Perhaps a dumb question, but the top ranking DPS trinkets for HA/Sera are all reliant on on-use mechanics. That means you can't use them both at the same time, correct?
    Correct. Ideally you want one on-use and one proc (or passive) trinket to maximize DPS. Those sims are done with one dummy trinket that gives 10 STR so as to minimize interactions. Simming every possible trinket combo is somewhat annoying because SimC only supports a maximum of 64 actors per sim. I have code that generates the list of configurations, so it's easy enough to do, just very difficult to feasibly report. If I cut it down to a smaller subset of the available trinkets (ex: prune all the weaker ones), it's probably doable.

    Also note the thing Celin mentioned earlier - pairing can do weird things. I'm pretty sure I posted about this earlier in the thread, but you actually get better DPS from PBE rather than TTT under the right circumstances just because of the sheer amount of AP you have on the pull with procs & potion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    @Theck you have any considerations regarding the best combination for dmg?
    I would probably use BFD + an on-use, unless you're trying for max DPS with HA/Sera, in which case probably PBE or TTT paired with a proc trinket like EAE. That said, I think the "max DPS" HA+Sera configs rely a lot on that initial insane burst, so if a given encounter isn't ideal like that (e.g. you don't hero on the pull or can't have full on-target time on the boss for some reason) you're probably better off with a trinket like BFD.

    Also note that I ran those sims with LH specced, so there's more external healing (from the other paladins) than usual, albeit in a short window every minute. If I re-run them I may use Execution Sentence instead to eliminate that effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Hey Theck, I'm assuming your chart is using mythic trinkets, right? If it's not too much trouble, could you do a comparison between heroic BRF trinkets and mythic Highmaul trinkets?

    I think there's a fair bit of people that only raid normal/heroic but had plenty of time to get lucky with their Highmaul caches and thus have mythic Highmaul trinkets but none from mythic BRF.

    Also, WTF is Petrified Flesheating Spore? I looked it up on wowhead, and it has the ilvl of Highmaul gear, but I can't find it in the dungeon journal and there's very few comments on its wowhead page, one of which says that it doesn't exist.
    Would it be easier if I just simmed all the trinkets together (i.e. separate M and H versions all in one run)? That way you could just compare directly across everything.

    (Also lol @ my note earlier about how someone always asks for more info about a specific edge case!)

    Petrified Flesheating Spore is in the game data and on wowhead, which is why it's included. I made the list early on, before raids opened up. It apparently doesn't drop or something, though, so *shrug*?

    Before I go to the trouble of re-tooling and rerunning the sims (which I can do today, since it's easy to rewrite and just takes lots of unattended sim time), let's make a list of all the changes we may be making here.

    1) Remove Petrified Flesheating Spore (might not exist?) and Ironspike Chew Toy (Int/Spi).
    2) Rerun single-trinket sim with all M and H trinkets together in the same sim.
    3) Run double-trinket sim with only relevant combos (only M, cut out any irrelevant / off-spec ones to minimize combinatorics)

    If anyone has other suggestions for which trinkets to remove from #1 (all sims) or #3 (just the combos), please contribute.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    Aaaand I just noticed that somehow Vial is worse for TMI than TTT if you run DP/HS. This is really not making sense to me, since TTT's on use should be much better sync'd with HA than Vial.
    Much better in what sense? The fact that it's BA rather than MS? That doesn't really seem relevant to TMI. You're basically invincible during HA+Sera anyway regardless of what trinket procs you do or don't have, so it won't make a big difference to TMI.

    Presumably the STR from Vial is doing more than the mastery from TTT during the Sera/HA downtime, especially that period when you have Divine Protection up and nothing else. That's where you're most vulnerable, and thus where most of the TMI value for should be coming from in a Sera-specced actor.

  20. #3600
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    1) Remove Petrified Flesheating Spore (might not exist?) and Ironspike Chew Toy (Int/Spi).
    2) Rerun single-trinket sim with all M and H trinkets together in the same sim.
    3) Run double-trinket sim with only relevant combos (only M, cut out any irrelevant / off-spec ones to minimize combinatorics)

    If anyone has other suggestions for which trinkets to remove from #1 (all sims) or #3 (just the combos), please contribute.
    You should get rid of:
    Goren Soul Repository, Scales of Doom, Captive Microaberration, Beating Heart of the Mountain, Quiescent Runestone, Blackiron Micro Crucible, Humming Blackiron Trigger, Darmacs Unstable Talisman, Meaty Dragonspine Trophy, Shards of Nothing and Ironspike Chew Toy.

    Simply because they are all going to be more use for someone else's off-spec that they play once in a year than they are for Prot Paladins. (Scabbard is debatable as it is still something a player might buy for an alt or use when gearing up, so I think we should leave it in, even though it is very weak as a tanking trinket)

    I think after that you could run the single trinket sim with the remaining trinkets in both mythic and heroic and then do the pairing of mythic versions. (Including 685 KB and SoF)

    Hopefully, with that done you won't have to touch trinket sims for a while, at least not before any major changes to Paladins or the 6.2 trinkets are announced.

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