Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Azrile]

Reading some of those quotes where he's talking about technical updates and whatnot is like watching someone "hacking" on a tv show or movie. Like, just mashing on the keyboard and using super broad and whiz bang sounding jargon..

I mentioned that early in this thread. He talked a lot and used tech jargon, but none of it actually made sense. Some of it was just him misusing a word slightly... but in some of his comments the words he was using weren´t even related to the rest of the sentence... I really don´t know if he has some mental issue.. but it is one thing to lie and try to fake it to people who don´t know any better, but he was talking to people who actually made games and knew that terminology and he still tried to pretend to be a techie.

Has anyone tried reading thos IRC chats? As much as I laughed reading the 3 pages of his quotes, once I saw how many IRC chats there were, i just can´t waste that kinda time no matter how many laughs are inside.

Honestly though, just reading his comments from 2002 where he sounds like they are almost playing the game....

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(I think that island survival tutorial Azrile posted is pretty damning to A LOT of survival games on early access right now), i

Unity is full of uncreative people. like you said about the survival island tutorial, the same is true about Unity Live training days. Unity does a lot of training stuff, and creates a lot of playable demos to showcase new features of the engine.. and without exception, as soon as they teach something, a bunch of people will take exactly the scripts used in the demo and try to sell them on the asset store.

So of course if someone does a tutorial on how to make a full game, there are probably dozens of people who did nothing but minor tweeks and called it their own. And honestly, I said that is one of the things Brax should have been doing 10 years ago. One of the best ways to learn is to take a game that already works and tweek it, like modding. The next step is to take a classic game and recreate it. It is harder than you think to make a game exactly like Donkey Kong ( one I just did recently) or Asteroids or Space Invaders. But recreating a game exactly teaches you how to develop games based on your vision rather than just winging it as you go. You start with a defined goal and you produce that goal.

the good thing about those survival games is that I would guess that many people who did that tutorial and decided to ´sell´ the game all did it at the same time, so are competing against each other to the point that nobody is going to make any real money off of the teachers tutorial.

[dextersmith]

EDIT:
The only reason i found ToA is because i'm in the habit of looking up on Google: "Games with playable draogns", as i'm obsessed with them. in response to what could have been implied (but might not have) in " I doubt that a 17 year female found about Trials of Ascension (especially in its current state) last week and already wants to throw “her money” at it"

How about Spyro?

[Sunaka]

How about Spyro?

I'm guessing there's not enough griefing and/or human-eating in the Spyro series.

[Deleted]

I started in this thread thinking it was a huge scam.

When their kickstarter failed (And a short while before it actually launched) I was more aiming towards incompetence.

Now I'm back at square one, I honestly believe this has been a scam all along.

Thanks for finding this gem guys. This thread keeps on delivering. Be sure to update the OP with all the important BS.

[Espe]

I started in this thread thinking it was a huge scam.

When their kickstarter failed (And a short while before it actually launched) I was more aiming towards incompetence.

Now I'm back at square one, I honestly believe this has been a scam all along.

Thanks for finding this gem guys. This thread keeps on delivering. Be sure to update the OP with all the important BS.

It's both. They are incompetent scammers.

[Fornax-]

It was never a scam. Just players who wanted more than an arcade hand holding kind of mmo gathered around some concepts that sounded promising. I was there from 2002 until 2007 when they folded up, and I put forward some cash in 2013 hoping to see it come to some fruition.

For it to be a scam, it's the worst one ever. There are easier ways to do it, and protect your own identity. Everyone calling it a scam still doesn't seem to see that. These guys just didn't know (nor did I, obviously) how clueless they were.

What I can't believe is that they still want to move forward at some point. If or when they do, it still won't be a scam.

[Kyanion]

It was never a scam. Just players who wanted more than an arcade hand holding kind of mmo gathered around some concepts that sounded promising. I was there from 2002 until 2007 when they folded up, and I put forward some cash in 2013 hoping to see it come to some fruition.

For it to be a scam, it's the worst one ever. There are easier ways to do it, and protect your own identity. Everyone calling it a scam still doesn't seem to see that. These guys just didn't know (nor did I, obviously) how clueless they were.

What I can't believe is that they still want to move forward at some point. If or when they do, it still won't be a scam.

Seems scammy to me, I mean Brax was talking back in 2002-2006 like there was a real game being worked on, yet all that was even shown of it was like 3 screenshots. So they had this 20+ man team with Customer service departments and all this crap but where was ANY of the work?

I mean if it really is a scam it is indeed one of the worst ever. But it does not mean it was a scam that was intended to get money back in 2002. Just the scam of their really being a game being developed which was just wasting people's time/effort in a community for a game that was never going to happen.

[Harris34]

So looking back Fornax, you think in the SP days that they were in alpha and had a functioning world that they were even doing quality assurance in? Otherwise, a lot of what they were talking about having done back then would have been a gross misrepresentation, and even if they weren't directly asking for money back then, were in fact scamming their fans.

[lawow74]

It's not a scam in the sense they never intended to make a game; it's a scam in how blatantly they lied to their would-be supporters about their progress in making it come about and misrepresenting themselves in the name of trying to make said game. To them any ends justified the means.

[Harris34]

I mentioned that early in this thread. He talked a lot and used tech jargon, but none of it actually made sense. Some of it was just him misusing a word slightly... but in some of his comments the words he was using weren´t even related to the rest of the sentence... I really don´t know if he has some mental issue.. but it is one thing to lie and try to fake it to people who don´t know any better, but he was talking to people who actually made games and knew that terminology and he still tried to pretend to be a techie.

Has anyone tried reading thos IRC chats? As much as I laughed reading the 3 pages of his quotes, once I saw how many IRC chats there were, i just can´t waste that kinda time no matter how many laughs are inside.

Honestly though, just reading his comments from 2002 where he sounds like they are almost playing the game....

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Unity is full of uncreative people. like you said about the survival island tutorial, the same is true about Unity Live training days. Unity does a lot of training stuff, and creates a lot of playable demos to showcase new features of the engine.. and without exception, as soon as they teach something, a bunch of people will take exactly the scripts used in the demo and try to sell them on the asset store.

So of course if someone does a tutorial on how to make a full game, there are probably dozens of people who did nothing but minor tweeks and called it their own. And honestly, I said that is one of the things Brax should have been doing 10 years ago. One of the best ways to learn is to take a game that already works and tweek it, like modding. The next step is to take a classic game and recreate it. It is harder than you think to make a game exactly like Donkey Kong ( one I just did recently) or Asteroids or Space Invaders. But recreating a game exactly teaches you how to develop games based on your vision rather than just winging it as you go. You start with a defined goal and you produce that goal.

the good thing about those survival games is that I would guess that many people who did that tutorial and decided to ´sell´ the game all did it at the same time, so are competing against each other to the point that nobody is going to make any real money off of the teachers tutorial.

But with all of the documentation, the videos, the asset packs, and the ability to use visual scripting to do so many things without coding knowledge, to drop something like the ToA demo, or a lot of these half baked games that take forever to get updates in EA on steam into the laps of a fanbase and then scream "game development is hard guys come on!" just rings so hollow now. Yes, good game development is hard. What these guys are doing is using the hard work other people have done and piggybacking off of that. It's not HARD to import an asset pack into your game after you've done it a couple times. It could be time consuming, sure. But the hard part was already done for you. Programming is hard, modeling is hard, animating is hard, sound design is hard. What these guys are trying to do is not hard, or creative, or anything like that. It's just time consuming, and they couldn't even be arsed to put enough effort into it despite it being their lifelong dream or whatever.

It's fucking sad really. Especially after they got paid.

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It's not a scam in the sense they never intended to make a game; it's a scam in how blatantly they lied to their would-be supporters about their progress in making it come about and misrepresenting themselves in the name of trying to make said game. To them any ends justified the means.

Yeah, I mean incompetence is one thing. But saying you have something, but you really don't, and then years later admitting you've never had the means or skills to produce anything is like moustache twirlingly fucking evil to people who have followed your every word for YEARS. Look at those chats and the fans portion of those dev quotes. People put a lot of effort into that shit. I put a lot of effort into that shit. Hell I had more to show for the game then SP did back then. I was creating buildings and stuff for my settlement (I was a leader of Ishundar, one of the 10 or so forum settlements) in the hammer editor back in the day. That was more than they ever showed.

[Azrile]

It was never a scam. Just players who wanted more than an arcade hand holding kind of mmo gathered around some concepts that sounded promising. I was there from 2002 until 2007 when they folded up, and I put forward some cash in 2013 hoping to see it come to some fruition.

For it to be a scam, it's the worst one ever. There are easier ways to do it, and protect your own identity. Everyone calling it a scam still doesn't seem to see that. These guys just didn't know (nor did I, obviously) how clueless they were.

What I can't believe is that they still want to move forward at some point. If or when they do, it still won't be a scam.

Yep, this is the debate we always end up having here.

Do the devs want to make ToA? Yes
Have they lied, mislead and tricked people for the past 12 years? Yes
Is this game ever going to get made? No

Honestly we would have to do an IQ test on Brax to be sure. But he can type and he can make a video. so it is safe to say he is not retarded. Any non-retarded person would BY NOW realize that they are never going to be able to make this game. The fact that he keeps stringing you along, the fact that they did the cash-shop AFTER those 2002-2007 years, and AFTER their experiences with Hero Engine, After the first KS.. well, if he is still trying to make this game, he is either retarded or scamming you guys because he has to know it is never going to happen. And in all those years, despite his words otherwise, the only thing he has done is chatted in forums and a crapload of IRCs and acted like a CEO/dev/designer of some great game.. but he never did any actual work on it. And except for Teddy, this entire project has just been him faking being a dev meanwhile stringing along an endless group of volunteers who come in for awhile, find out it is a scam, and then leave.

I don´t think it is a scam like they want to make a quick buck, I think it is a scam in that for 13 years now Brax has enjoyed acting like a real developer. Like i said on the first page.. he is like a child pretending to be an astronaut or something.

And not to be too rude or blunt Fornax. Despite not being perfect myself. I have a hard time taking seriously deductive reasoning of someone who was there for 5 years from 2002-2006, participated in all those irc chats, was active on the forums, saw them dissolve, saw them come back, saw the first KS.. and STILL donated money to buy an imaginary item in a game that doesnt exist. I respect that some of your money went to Teddy, and that is a good thing, but you donated that money before there was a Teddy. I can see how you don´t don´t want to see this for what it really was the whole time. It was just some lazy guy who tricked some people into thinking he could make a game and posted a lot on forums.

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But with all of the documentation, the videos, the asset packs, and the ability to use visual scripting to do so many things without coding knowledge, to drop something like the ToA demo, or a lot of these half baked games that take forever to get updates in EA on steam into the laps of a fanbase and then scream "game development is hard guys come on!" just rings so hollow now.

They only scream game development is hard because they are not developers. Like I said early in this thread, it is easy to add the easy stuff that are independent of each other and show some screenshots and videos. It is why ToA never had a real UI, Spells, or skill system that interacted with combat. The construction system they had was an isolated package, the chopping trees was isolated. You never saw interaction between systems.

I am not going to bash Steam, Steam is what it is.. it was created because of demand, and if there was no demand, it would not exist. I think the whole early access and greenlight system will work itself out when games that get posted there by ´nobodies´ do not get any traction. I also think Unity has reached kinda a limit as to what can be copy-pasted from assets. In other words, the best games you can make with Unity without being a real dev have been flooding steam already. The 20th survival game based on that tutorial is going to draw no interest. And I think people are going to start having more fun pointing out how similar the 20 games are. I don´t think Steam is ever going to curate that process because they think the $100 is enough of a deterrent. But I think it is just going to work itself out because people are going to learn not to trust anything said by nobodies in early access the same way they don´t listen to nobodies in KS.

[Fornax-]

So looking back Fornax, you think in the SP days that they were in alpha and had a functioning world that they were even doing quality assurance in? Otherwise, a lot of what they were talking about having done back then would have been a gross misrepresentation, and even if they weren't directly asking for money back then, were in fact scamming their fans.

I honestly don't know. Truly.

To me it does seem they overstated (maybe grossly overstated) their progress. I do not perceive guile in them, nor malice. Just hubristic misjudgment, and pipe dreams.

Azrile: it's not rude to wonder why I would support them financially. It's fine to ask. I felt at the time, that if they could get a real demo working, showing concepts of the game play without all the art and bells and whistles, but some solid proof, it might make for a better foundation to put forth as proof of concept, and good intentions, and might actually get some people to help create the game.

Unfortunately, they went about using the funds in a way that probably cost so much more than it should have, given that they could have been doing a lot of the work themselves, as many here consistently point out. Also, whenever you do decide to roll out your demo and actually make another pitch to the world for your game, don't flipping decide on a lark to do it when things are obviously not ready. If anything, that could be his biggest mistake to date. Rolling it out again LONG before it was ready. But, I think because he did have real people who had invested (donated, I know...) I think he put too much pressure on himself to show his stuff, particularly when this thread emerged.

From my perspective, I did not buy something that didn't exist. That was never my intention. My intention was to help fund the demo. Sure I got codes to shit that wondered if it would ever amount to anything, but primarily, I was about helping get the game started.

[Azrile]

2002-2007 they showed nothing.. despite the fact that as far back as 2002 they talked about basically having stuff done already. They never would, and never did tell you what engine they were using, and what engine they switched to.. because that would have allowed you guys to do some research. He constantly talked about ´we´ as the people who were actually in the game.. but at every turn, basically even the deepest fans never saw anything...who was the ´we´.. he talked about getting feedback on stuff they had implemented... from whom? when even guys like you and Talon did not see anything. You really think he had a customer service group in training?...for a game that was in pre-alpha and never played by anyone?

And you say his biggest mistake being some minor thing he did with KS#2? There never was a game for like 13 years... they were non-developers with a terrible history.. It doesn´t matter what they did in 2015, and doesn´t matter if they had only asked for $100,000 they were not going to get funded. They could have given away the game at the $10 level and they wouldn´t have gotten funded. Everywhere they posted, every fansite they had their social media site spam, they got ridiculed. Not just for being idiot non-developers, but for their ´innovative ideas´. Once I pointed out that they were devalting their forums and MMORPG.com... suddenly,all their crazy support stopped... because there NEVER was real support for this game The entire concept would never fly as a MMORPG, let alone as a MMORPG that needed pre-funding to even be built. IF these guys magically built ToA overnight, you still wouldn´t have more than a thousand players who buy it and that would not even maintain 1 Teddy to keep the game alive.

it is just frustrating that you guys keep defending these idiots like they were just some nice guys who got in over their heads. They faked a game for 13 years, and the only tiny bit that was built was because they suckered a few people into hiring Teddy. They freakin said they were developing the game from 2002 to 2006.. and there is NOTHING. How do you have a team of 20+ people working for 4 years and not be able to show anything but a few screenshots that aren´t even a game. And again they said they were developing the game from 2012-2013 in Hero Engine... and again.. NOTHING.. A generic map with a spider ( that someone imported for them) chasing a default human. Read the crap they were writing from 2002-2006, and again from 2012-2013.. and then watch that hero engine video again... but hey, they are nice guys, they would never lie to you.

[Taojnhy]

2002-2007 they showed nothing.. despite the fact that as far back as 2002 they talked about basically having stuff done already. They never would, and never did tell you what engine they were using, and what engine they switched to.. because that would have allowed you guys to do some research. He constantly talked about ´we´ as the people who were actually in the game.. but at every turn, basically even the deepest fans never saw anything...who was the ´we´.. he talked about getting feedback on stuff they had implemented... from whom? when even guys like you and Talon did not see anything. You really think he had a customer service group in training?...for a game that was in pre-alpha and never played by anyone?

And you say his biggest mistake being some minor thing he did with KS#2? There never was a game for like 13 years... they were non-developers with a terrible history.. It doesn´t matter what they did in 2015, and doesn´t matter if they had only asked for $100,000 they were not going to get funded. They could have given away the game at the $10 level and they wouldn´t have gotten funded. Everywhere they posted, every fansite they had their social media site spam, they got ridiculed. Not just for being idiot non-developers, but for their ´innovative ideas´. Once I pointed out that they were devalting their forums and MMORPG.com... suddenly,all their crazy support stopped... because there NEVER was real support for this game The entire concept would never fly as a MMORPG, let alone as a MMORPG that needed pre-funding to even be built. IF these guys magically built ToA overnight, you still wouldn´t have more than a thousand players who buy it and that would not even maintain 1 Teddy to keep the game alive.

it is just frustrating that you guys keep defending these idiots like they were just some nice guys who got in over their heads. They faked a game for 13 years, and the only tiny bit that was built was because they suckered a few people into hiring Teddy. They freakin said they were developing the game from 2002 to 2006.. and there is NOTHING. How do you have a team of 20+ people working for 4 years and not be able to show anything but a few screenshots that aren´t even a game. And again they said they were developing the game from 2012-2013 in Hero Engine... and again.. NOTHING.. A generic map with a spider ( that someone imported for them) chasing a default human. Read the crap they were writing from 2002-2006, and again from 2012-2013.. and then watch that hero engine video again... but hey, they are nice guys, they would never lie to you.

I think you should cut Fornax some slack here Azrile. The only thing he's saying is that he doesn't feel it was a scam, and to be completely fair, there -is- a tiny bit of wiggle room for a plausible argument of "incompetent but not malicious".

I believe the Three Stooges were both incompetent and malicious however, particularly in light of this additional history. Sure, a demo was (eventually) made, but there's a lot of that $67k that isn't accounted for, at least not with that list of excuses Brax gave; certainly not after Teddy clarified his compensation. The malice part for me is knowing that they have -zero- qualms about lying to, misleading and misdirecting their fanbase, who want so much to see this game get made.

Even for those with no financial capital sunk into this morass, there certainly appears to be a lot of emotional investment. No one likes being wrong, nor being taken for a ride. We should save our ire for those who really deserve it.

[Post]

I dunno it seems pretty obviously a scam to me. As others say, it's not a "we aren't going to make a game, we're just going to squeeze money out of people!" type scam, but these people legitimately lied multiple times to get support. If you mislead people I believe it's a scam, even if your intention is eventually to make the best game ever (and get rich doing so).

[Harris34]

It almost seemed like this was all being done for the adulation of a rabid fanbase. Wanting to be treated like kings, gods even. It's funny, we used to joke about ToA being some grand social experiment about how long we would support SP without ever seeing anything from the game. Amazing how after all of these years some people still believe. Grand social experiment indeed.

Hell, I'm getting sucked back into the aftermath of all this, albeit with a different opinion now. Another mouse for the maze I suppose.

[Taojnhy]

It almost seemed like this was all being done for the adulation of a rabid fanbase. Wanting to be treated like kings, gods even. It's funny, we used to joke about ToA being some grand social experiment about how long we would support SP without ever seeing anything from the game. Amazing how after all of these years some people still believe. Grand social experiment indeed.

Hell, I'm getting sucked back into the aftermath of all this, albeit with a different opinion now. Another mouse for the maze I suppose.

If it's any consolation, we have more varieties of cheese!

[lawow74]

It almost seemed like this was all being done for the adulation of a rabid fanbase. Wanting to be treated like kings, gods even.

I'm sure on some level they loved that too, seeing people legitimately blowing smoke up their butts(however much of the overall was dev-alt chicanery, there were and are a handful of actual fans who think they can do no wrong)for them doing little to nothing over the years.

[Kotori125]

To be fair for Fornax's comment that the events from the second KS may be the worst out of everything...

They did actually have a 'game' in the form of their tech demo (regardless of the quality or condition of the demo). The blunder is is that they did not show anything gameplay related, or from the demo at all, to anyone (that didn't pay $500 for demo access or whatever), especially when promoting toa to outside sources and the public and through KS (and of course timing of the KS and all that stuff too). I mean, they had something, but didn't (want to?) reveal or promote or showcase it...? That Fornax's, and others, funds were utilized to create that demo, yet the demo itself, or any footage, was never utilized for toa and its promotion for the KS. That the one thing they have for obvious proof of concept and an actual playable 'game' world, yet do not provide it when it is most needed.

I mean, it is one thing if Brax (and others) lies to their fans and other people. But how exactly can they explain this situation, when there is actual proof of content being created?

[Azrile]

And that is why the fans that still support them are insane. Let us just make some absurd assumptions. Let´s assume that it is possible for 3 CEOs with no skills to make a MMORPG. Let´s make the assumption that they raise enough money to actually hire some decent workers.

What in the past of these three idiots would lead anyone to believe that they could manage the project? They have literally screwed up everything since this all started. The fans gave them almost double the amount the said they need to make a demo video.. and they produced absolute garbage. They spent $67,000 to fundraise $28,000 and even though Teddy did some decent work, the three stoogies completely destroyed their own KS. They have twice now had a mass exodus of people who work with them. Xanword was pretty obvious with his lashing out at Brax´s abilities, and Teddy probably was a little more restrained, but you have to believe his comment about turning on the server was made for our amusement. They bought all kinda crap they didn´t need, or that didn´t work. If you can´t manage money, and you can´t manage people.... why does anyone think these three nobodies could actually make a game if given the proper money or workers. You would just end up with a larger version of their KS#2, where they have everything they need, yet still manage to screw it all up.

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I'm sure on some level they loved that too, seeing people legitimately blowing smoke up their butts(however much of the overall was dev-alt chicanery, there were and are a handful of actual fans who think they can do no wrong)for them doing little to nothing over the years.

I thought that too. I thought maybe over the years they bought into the fans worshiping them and it just snowballed. But if you read Brax´s posts from day 1 back in 2002, he was already talking like he was the person who created Super Mario.