Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Kyanion]

Potential customers are customers in that sense. The 'image' of GM is the website, the forums, etc. I'm just being tactical when referencing it. I'm not sure why it's become such a sticking point...

Oh I KNOW what image GM invokes when I think about it. 3 years of failures and the waste of 100k in KS money. A video after 3 years of 'work' on the game that is one of the worst things I've ever seen as far as gaming is concerned. The image of GM is a failed game with a forum/website. Wooo.

[Azrile]

The 'image' of GM is the website

You mean the ´image´ of the priest and the elf on the website? Yeah, Unity Asset Store $25 each I believe. I think the hog-man is $35.

Here, I will help you out if you want to sue Unity for stealing the copyright on your branding

Elf Girl $10
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/4286

Your amazing branding.. you didn´t even bother to use your own render... nope, just stole the picture directly from the artist.

Here is pig head $40
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/3770

Again, didn´t even bother to do your own render, just stole it from the artist and put it on your website for branding.

And here is the Priest also $40

https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/2259

But you are in luck, those last two were done by the same artist, so when you sue them for copyright infringement, you only need to sue two people.

Is that branding? Can you please define it again?

[jrhager84]

You missed my point. I know what branding is... do you know what a product is? You do not have a product, so it is silly to talk about branding it.

We do have a product. The product just isn't finished. Big difference.

It reminds me of the email I got the other week giving me a free copy of a new zombie MMO from the infestation guys, they basically want to 'rebrand' themselves away from the nightmare that was that development and team. It won't work, once something is toxic in the gaming world it is very hard to recover.

It's a far different story when it's a different company with a different structure moving forward. You're actually referring to The War Z, right? Which had to change their name? Sergei Titov is the leader of that pack, and I called him out as well. I'd hope you can see the differences between these two scenarios... If not, I'd be more than happy to point them out.

Final thoughts:
I'm noticing a disturbing trend of things devolving into more ad hominem-style remarks. Look - I get where you guys are coming from. No amount of character judgements or snide remarks are going to help here. Can we dispense with the puffery, and stick to points? I'll be happy to answer any questions, and be as transparent as humanly possible. Also, I couldn't care less what you guys think of me. I couldn't care less about what you think my character is. That's not the point here. My point was to clarify key issues, and provide a plan moving forward. The 'peanut gallery' forum is not helpful, nor is it a constructive appropriation of time.

It's almost as though you get a kick out of stirring the pot. After all, we *are* in the internet.

[Kyanion]

What exactly is there to be transparent about? How many people are working on this game RIGHT NOW? Who is backing this game? How long will you seek funds from other companies before shelving this project?

I just don't get WHY you'd want this 'project' to be under your company/personal name. A 3 year project that has had its name drug through the mud and 100k in Kickstarter money basically being wasted isn't exactly the image I'd want to project.

[jrhager84]

Branding/Image also applies to public perception, which is the facet I'm referring to in this instance. It seems you're so bent on arguing, that you're willing to subvert an entire conversation to keep the pressure on. I'm not quite sure what you think you're doing, aside from maybe bolstering your ego by 'white knighting' the poor KS backers. You've misappropriated nearly every one of my points to near ludicrousness. I never said the 'art' was the image. But here you go, down the rabbit hole.

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Right now, we have about 10 people of various backgrounds and various commitment levels, with more in the pipeline being vetted. I am backing this company at present. We will release this game no matter what. Whether it's taking a while because we're financing it ourselves, or with help from publishers or investors. This project will NOT get shelved. It WILL be released to our best efforts.

We didn't *want* this project. I told James to run. After Interdiction Studios passed on it, we thought about it. We thought about all of the money that people have spent, and how much James worked on this project. I assumed the risk of acquiring a damaged IP so that we may have the tools to fix it, and after this release goes, the next project. Even if the game turns out to be a monumental failure, my hope is that people will *see* what we've done to correct the mistakes. At least then, people will see effort being made to fulfill the commitment.

You're also exactly right about negative image. Which is why I'm focused on imaging and branding. This company is NOT responsible for wasting KS money - We haven't seen a dime of it. We haven't had our name drug through the mud - We're coming on to finish what was started incorrectly (in my opinion). I knew this wasn't going to be easy, but that's not why I do things. I don't choose the easy path. This was a perfect chance for us to use the attention of GM (however negative) to show people the changes, and to listen to the negative feedback to strengthen ourselves. We're in a great position from a QA standpoint; We've already got a pack of vicious naysayers that'll tear our game to shreds each release. My hope is that as updates continue, the list of qualms shrinks. All we can do is move forward, and see what happens.

[Azrile]

We gave you the best advice, shut the fuck up and make the game before you talk shit like James has been doing the past 3 years.

And it is really hard to take this ´new´ company seriously since James has already done the same thing in the past. ´I am in control of GM now, I am CEO of MMOI and Jason is just a silent member of my board of directors´..

Oh, but we should believe you now, because you know, it is YOU this time, and not just some random nobody that nobody has heard of before.. oh wait.. you are some random nobody that nobody has heard of before. Care to list the games you have completed? Asteroid clones are great! But nobody should worry, because now Joel is here to save the day.

You sound so similar to Jason back during the KS. Vetting people who are just throwing themselves at you to work for you.

[Kyanion]

If you think he is trying to 'white knight' for the KS backers then you have really missed the point.

[jrhager84]

Is that branding? Can you please define it again?

Branding/Image also applies to public perception, which is the facet I'm referring to in this instance. It seems you're so bent on arguing, that you're willing to subvert an entire conversation to keep the pressure on. I'm not quite sure what you think you're doing, aside from maybe bolstering your ego by 'white knighting' the poor KS backers. You've misappropriated nearly every one of my points to near ludicrousness. I never said the 'art' was the image. But here you go, down the rabbit hole.

- - - Updated - - -

What exactly is there to be transparent about? How many people are working on this game RIGHT NOW? Who is backing this game? How long will you seek funds from other companies before shelving this project?

I just don't get WHY you'd want this 'project' to be under your company/personal name. A 3 year project that has had its name drug through the mud and 100k in Kickstarter money basically being wasted isn't exactly the image I'd want to project.

Right now, we have about 10 people of various backgrounds and various commitment levels, with more in the pipeline being vetted. I am backing this company at present. We will release this game no matter what. Whether it's taking a while because we're financing it ourselves, or with help from publishers or investors. This project will NOT get shelved. It WILL be released to our best efforts.

We didn't *want* this project. I told James to run. After Interdiction Studios passed on it, we thought about it. We thought about all of the money that people have spent, and how much James worked on this project. I assumed the risk of acquiring a damaged IP so that we may have the tools to fix it, and after this release goes, the next project. Even if the game turns out to be a monumental failure, my hope is that people will *see* what we've done to correct the mistakes. At least then, people will see effort being made to fulfill the commitment.

You're also exactly right about negative image. Which is why I'm focused on imaging and branding. This company is NOT responsible for wasting KS money - We haven't seen a dime of it. We haven't had our name drug through the mud - We're coming on to finish what was started incorrectly (in my opinion). I knew this wasn't going to be easy, but that's not why I do things. I don't choose the easy path. This was a perfect chance for us to use the attention of GM (however negative) to show people the changes, and to listen to the negative feedback to strengthen ourselves. We're in a great position from a QA standpoint; We've already got a pack of vicious naysayers that'll tear our game to shreds each release. My hope is that as updates continue, the list of qualms shrinks. All we can do is move forward, and see what happens.

[Kyanion]

Branding/Image also applies to public perception, which is the facet I'm referring to in this instance. It seems you're so bent on arguing, that you're willing to subvert an entire conversation to keep the pressure on. I'm not quite sure what you think you're doing, aside from maybe bolstering your ego by 'white knighting' the poor KS backers. You've misappropriated nearly every one of my points to near ludicrousness. I never said the 'art' was the image. But here you go, down the rabbit hole.

- - - Updated - - -

Right now, we have about 10 people of various backgrounds and various commitment levels, with more in the pipeline being vetted. I am backing this company at present. We will release this game no matter what. Whether it's taking a while because we're financing it ourselves, or with help from publishers or investors. This project will NOT get shelved. It WILL be released to our best efforts.

We didn't *want* this project. I told James to run. After Interdiction Studios passed on it, we thought about it. We thought about all of the money that people have spent, and how much James worked on this project. I assumed the risk of acquiring a damaged IP so that we may have the tools to fix it, and after this release goes, the next project. Even if the game turns out to be a monumental failure, my hope is that people will *see* what we've done to correct the mistakes. At least then, people will see effort being made to fulfill the commitment.

You're also exactly right about negative image. Which is why I'm focused on imaging and branding. This company is NOT responsible for wasting KS money - We haven't seen a dime of it. We haven't had our name drug through the mud - We're coming on to finish what was started incorrectly (in my opinion). I knew this wasn't going to be easy, but that's not why I do things. I don't choose the easy path. This was a perfect chance for us to use the attention of GM (however negative) to show people the changes, and to listen to the negative feedback to strengthen ourselves. We're in a great position from a QA standpoint; We've already got a pack of vicious naysayers that'll tear our game to shreds each release. My hope is that as updates continue, the list of qualms shrinks. All we can do is move forward, and see what happens.

See that is the thing. You guys may not be the ones that got the KS money but when you took on this game you are now the ones behind the game that had a KS generate 100k and in 3 years hasn't gotten close to producing a game. That may not be fair but it is exactly what it is. Any negative light is going to be shone on the people working on the game.

[jrhager84]

We gave you the best advice, shut the fuck up and make the game before you talk shit like James has been doing the past 3 years.

And it is really hard to take this ´new´ company seriously since James has already done the same thing in the past. ´I am in control of GM now, I am CEO of MMOI and Jason is just a silent member of my board of directors´..

Oh, but we should believe you now, because you know, it is YOU this time, and not just some random nobody that nobody has heard of before.. oh wait.. you are some random nobody that nobody has heard of before. Care to list the games you have completed? Asteroid clones are great! But nobody should worry, because now Joel is here to save the day.

You sound so similar to Jason back during the KS. Vetting people who are just throwing themselves at you to work for you.

Fair points. I have nothing to say to satisfy your arguments. All I have is a commitment. If that's not good enough for you, then I'm sorry. I'm not asking for your trust. I'm asking for your attention. If you don't like something - Say it. But please - At least make it constructive. Calling me a random nobody doesn't really help anything. You've said it yourself - No big-time dev would take this on. Maybe I'm a dreamer. Maybe I'm stupid. Who knows? Time will tell. All I can do is try my best, and deal with people like you making assumptions and personal attacks.

I've never said I was special. I never said we were perfect. Is that what you really took away from all that I've typed? I never said that people were 'throwing themselves at us.' Again, more presumption. Silliness.

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See that is the thing. You guys may not be the ones that got the KS money but when you took on this game you are now the ones behind the game that had a KS generate 100k and in 3 years hasn't gotten close to producing a game. That may not be fair but it is exactly what it is. Any negative light is going to be shone on the people working on the game.

...and we're painfully aware of that reality, but our own desires are not the priority; Getting the KS backers a game is. We'll either be forged in the flame of criticism, or burn up in it. Either way is fine by me. At least at the end of the day we can say we gave it our all.

[Kyanion]

What is the point of backing this game? You aren't the one that got the KS money so why do this to yourselves? You are like trying to be the hero of the day and save GM from incompetence but you keep one of the people that is incompetent involved in the project. You are supposedly going to toss your own money at this project to fulfill KS backers and to also finish this game in hopes that it does what exactly?

You are like trying to fulfill the KS agreement by giving people t-shirts and then being okay with the game if it gets released and it is a total failure? I mean you think a failed game will look good for your new company?

[Azrile]

If you think he is trying to 'white knight' for the KS backers then you have really missed the point.

Not even sure what I am doing here LOL.

But one point to remember, James is the one who wasted the KS money, and he is still a key part of the new company to the point where he was calling himself CEO of it. No doubt a big part of their branding will be to diminish the appearance of James going forward, but he is still going to be the main one making the game.

[Kyanion]

Not even sure what I am doing here LOL.

But one point to remember, James is the one who wasted the KS money, and he is still a key part of the new company to the point where he was calling himself CEO of it. No doubt a big part of their branding will be to diminish the appearance of James going forward, but he is still going to be the main one making the game.

I wouldn't let that James guy anywhere near a project if I was trying to build something. That type of person just makes the company look even worse. And by type of person I mean clueless/incompetent.

As to what you are doing here Azrile, calling attention to potentially scammy things and pointing out what can and can't be done with Unity. I mean look at what GM produced in 3 years...yeesh that video gives me nightmares. Same thing with ToA you called attention to a lot of shit they were doing and look at how they turned out.

[jrhager84]

What is the point of backing this game? You aren't the one that got the KS money so why do this to yourselves? You are like trying to be the hero of the day and save GM from incompetence but you keep one of the people that is incompetent involved in the project. You are supposedly going to toss your own money at this project to fulfill KS backers and to also finish this game in hopes that it does what exactly?

You are like trying to fulfill the KS agreement by giving people t-shirts and then being okay with the game if it gets released and it is a total failure? I mean you think a failed game will look good for your new company?

I'm a traditional person. I've known James, and I've worked with him. I believe in him. Has he made mistakes? Many. Will I allow him to repeat those? No. I'd like to think that my work will stand on its own, and people can judge for themselves at how I conducted myself, and how this company handled the project. Some projects just fail. Even your favorite AAA devs have had massive failures. It's part of the game. However, if somebody sees that we honored pledges, and fought until the very end, I'd say that at least gets us a few respect points.

Not even sure what I am doing here LOL.

But one point to remember, James is the one who wasted the KS money, and he is still a key part of the new company to the point where he was calling himself CEO of it. No doubt a big part of their branding will be to diminish the appearance of James going forward, but he is still going to be the main one making the game.

I completely agree that James has misspoken a LOT since the inception of GM. I've taken him to task on multiple occasions regarding this. He understands that he's partially-responsible, which is why he's here to try and rectify a lot of these issues. I admire that.

I stand by James. He's not perfect, and I'm working with him on that, but he's a man I admire, and will work with moving forward. We're making some big moves, and hopefully it doesn't blow up in our faces. Then again, you'll never know unless you try. ;-)

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As to what you are doing here Azrile, calling attention to potentially scammy things and pointing out what can and can't be done with Unity. I mean look at what GM produced in 3 years...yeesh that video gives me nightmares. Same thing with ToA you called attention to a lot of shit they were doing and look at how they turned out.

Which is the type of feedback I appreciate ENORMOUSLY. I never said we were perfect, and I'm *always* willing to bend an ear to hear a potentially-better solution.

[Azrile]

James is all over their forums again... And guess what, that other guy.. the one from the videos who blamed everything on Jason and nothing on James... he is going to be their new community manager... I really did not see that coming...

I hate being a dick.. but

I've known James, and I've worked with him. I believe in him.

Have you ever seen him finish a project? has he accomplished ANYTHING except talk on the forums? We posted a long list of his half-done crap that he brags about one day,then abandons the next.

Again, not to be a dick. But he was working on GM for three years and was able to produce nothing except a horrible video with extremely bad performance issues. Nothing else he has worked on.. actually works. He has the attention span of a gnat and the fact that he lives with his mother and does´n´t even have ID yet.... I just have a hard time taking seriously that you believe in him... why? There is nothing in his professional life ( not that he is allowed to have one) would indicate that he is anything more than MAYBE some schlep you let volunteer to do QA

** I apologize in advance to all you schleps I ask to do free alpha testing for us later on **

[Kyanion]

I'm a traditional person. I've known James, and I've worked with him. I believe in him. Has he made mistakes? Many. Will I allow him to repeat those? No. I'd like to think that my work will stand on its own, and people can judge for themselves at how I conducted myself, and how this company handled the project. Some projects just fail. Even your favorite AAA devs have had massive failures. It's part of the game. However, if somebody sees that we honored pledges, and fought until the very end, I'd say that at least gets us a few respect points.

jrhager did you WATCH that video that was released for GM? You believe in someone that produces THAT after 3 years of work? Fighting to the end for 'respect points' really means nothing if you fail to release the game. You may not see it that way but that isn't how it will be remembered. It'll be like talking about ToA and the many failures it had and there will be no mention of the 'respect points' (not that they really earned any).

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I completely agree that James has misspoken a LOT since the inception of GM. I've taken him to task on multiple occasions regarding this. He understands that he's partially-responsible, which is why he's here to try and rectify a lot of these issues. I admire that.

I stand by James. He's not perfect, and I'm working with him on that, but he's a man I admire, and will work with moving forward. We're making some big moves, and hopefully it doesn't blow up in our faces. Then again, you'll never know unless you try. ;-)

And taking him to task accomplished what exactly? From what I understand this James guy continues to make an ass of himself on the forums. Partially-responsible? That dude got all sorts of tools PAID for to create a game and didn't even get CLOSE to accomplishing that in 3 years. Again go look at the video from January. That guy is far more than partially-responsible. He's the one that was putting out videos that just looked awful and showed how poor a job was being done with the KS money.

[jrhager84]

James is all over their forums again... And guess what, that other guy.. the one from the videos who blamed everything on Jason and nothing on James... he is going to be their new community manager... I really did not see that coming...

He was the former community manager that came back after Jason left. Not sure what your point is...

[Kyanion]

He was the former community manager that came back after Jason left. Not sure what your point is...

Usually when you take over a project that was a massive failure you start by cleaning house, not by empowering the same clueless people to continue to do the same shoddy work.

[jrhager84]

jrhager did you WATCH that video that was released for GM? You believe in someone that produces THAT after 3 years of work? Fighting to the end for 'respect points' really means nothing if you fail to release the game. You may not see it that way but that isn't how it will be remembered. It'll be like talking about ToA and the many failures it had and there will be no mention of the 'respect points' (not that they really earned any).

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And taking him to task accomplished what exactly? From what I understand this James guy continues to make an ass of himself on the forums. Partially-responsible? That dude got all sorts of tools PAID for to create a game and didn't even get CLOSE to accomplishing that in 3 years. Again go look at the video from January. That guy is far more than partially-responsible. He's the one that was putting out videos that just looked awful and showed how poor a job was being done with the KS money.

I have to say - I've been crunching numbers, and the tools that we acquired from Jason are a FAR cry from the entire money that was pledged. As far as milestones, I agree. They got too caught up in the details, and lost track of the top-down sight. I'm aiming to correct this.

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Usually when you take over a project that was a massive failure you start by cleaning house, not by empowering the same clueless people to continue to do the same shoddy work.

There was nothing that led me to believe that this particular action was needed and/or justified. Again, it all comes down to leadership. I believe that the team was solid, and was mis-managed. That's my personal belief, and changes will be made should progress not continue.

[khalltusk]

and if you put that in even a single player game, you are looking at 10 FPS. Gassy did some nice work though. I said before, he should be putting his stuff up for sale on the asset store.

10 FPS would be worth, but I doubt it would run that low. The unreal engine has always been pretty darn solid and the new one is looking like it will continue that. OK a beast of a rig would be required but it'd run well IMO. Saying that didnt the previous unreal engine get released for general use not that long ago?

If it is, may have to grab that and have a little prattle around in it.