Strong indication that 6.2 won't be the final raid tier/content (spoilers)

[Kagthul]

Yea, had my demons all mixed up. However if Archimonde was summoned from the Nether or wherever he came from that would mean there are alternate versions of the Nether as well and that it's not some big overarching dimension where the demons chill out.

Correct. That's why this whole buildup to "the Legion is the real threat" is sorta.. strange. This isn't even "our" Legion we're fighting. It's the AU Legion.

OUR Legion IS still a major threat in OUR universe. We should be fighting them...

not the AU Legion. Unless theyre going to tack on some story about how now that the AU Legion is aware of multiple parallel dimensions they're actually trying to hook up and merge with OUR Legion.

I -do- think the Tomb of Sargeras (on our MU Azeroth) would be a great final raid. AU Gul'dan trying to get revenge on us MU Azerothians by ressurecting our Sargeras to lay waste to our planet? That fits.

[Soulwind]

Yea, had my demons all mixed up. However if Archimonde was summoned from the Nether or wherever he came from that would mean there are alternate versions of the Nether as well and that it's not some big overarching dimension where the demons chill out.

The Twisting Nether, as chaotic as it is does seem to follow some rules (that's why warlocks can summon things from it, taught by other warlocks). Even if space isn't just space in Warcraft and worlds are connected in unpredictable, magic ways, time and reality appear static.

So yes, an alternate universe has an alternate Twisting Nether with alternate versions of the same demons. If this was Marvel and not Blizzard, we'd end up fighting against two Sargeras at the same time.

Thankfully, the writers realize that this is a) bad writing and b) confusing as hell, and don't plan to expand much on the concept. If anything, they prefer CoT-style timetravel with the usual Back to the Future rules. They just needed an excuse to borrow some dead characters from this universe without consequences so that future linear stories in our universe can have them.

I personally don't hate the idea of alternate characters. An evil Thrall, a good Neltharion... anyone really can be introduced in a different way while keeping the familiarity. I'd just wish they skipped the part where we visit their worlds and simply brought them to ours, like the ones Kairoz summons in the novel. A cinematic, a few quests, some short stories... they're all they'd need to introduce some alternate/past/future characters, and we wouldn't have to deal with the rest.

[fakaroonie]

I've seen people complaining for M Archi not giving a title. Here's a lame title: Defiler's End. Woooaa! or or, Savior of Draenor! uh uh, Legion's Demise. Ok I'll stop.

[axi0m]

The Twisting Nether, as chaotic as it is does seem to follow some rules (that's why warlocks can summon things from it, taught by other warlocks). Even if space isn't just space in Warcraft and worlds are connected in unpredictable, magic ways, time and reality appear static.

So yes, an alternate universe has an alternate Twisting Nether with alternate versions of the same demons. If this was Marvel and not Blizzard, we'd end up fighting against two Sargeras at the same time.

Thankfully, the writers realize that this is a) bad writing and b) confusing as hell, and don't plan to expand much on the concept. If anything, they prefer CoT-style timetravel with the usual Back to the Future rules. They just needed an excuse to borrow some dead characters from this universe without consequences so that future linear stories in our universe can have them.

I personally don't hate the idea of alternate characters. An evil Thrall, a good Neltharion... anyone really can be introduced in a different way while keeping the familiarity. I'd just wish they skipped the part where we visit their worlds and simply brought them to ours, like the ones Kairoz summons in the novel. A cinematic, a few quests, some short stories... they're all they'd need to introduce some alternate/past/future characters, and we wouldn't have to deal with the rest.

Yea I'm on board with you there, this kind of breaks the rules regarding what the Twisting Nether was "supposed" to be or we all thought it was. Hopefully it all end up quietly retconned and never mentioned again.

[Madruga]

I actually truly believe Archimonde is the final boss of WoD.

According to some more datamining, we save Grom in the Citadel raid. Meaning, he was pushed to whimpy status. Specailly since compared to Archimonde Grom is a mere grunt.

[A Chozo]

Pff. Cho'gall's Master is still en route to Draenor.

I believe he'll spawn in the Green Fields of Farahlon, where we'll have a final raid there.

Iron Horde will be defeated.
Archimonde will be vanquished.
But The Master will come, and he/she/it shall bring forth the Evernight.

[blackblade]

Only because Blizzard was too stupid to make HM and BRF the same iLEvel spread, which they should have. If they are the same tier, they should have been the same iLevel.

Rampant iLevel infation is like a cancer in this game.

More likely the patch was in development pre-ilvl boost, and ilvls on the PTR have not been adjusted to reflect that.

Chances are that heroic will be 5 ilvl's higher than brf-mythic, and mythic will be 20 ilvl's ahead.

[MoanaLisa]

Only because Blizzard was too stupid to make HM and BRF the same iLEvel spread, which they should have. If they are the same tier, they should have been the same iLevel.

Rampant iLevel infation is like a cancer in this game.

I don't think it much matters any longer. Levels can be reset with each expansion if they like so how does it really matter.

The difference between raids and tiers is eroding away and really those are just labels in any case. Given the size of raids we've seen some past tiers that were smaller than a current raid so making distinctions like that is pointless. For that matter T12/T13 are about the size of a current raid. Raid A progresses to Raid B which progresses to Raid C and so on. That's all you need to know.

Next expansion it either continues on or starts over. Gear resets are the norm anyway for a new expansion. That is annoying from the standpoint of trying to inhabit your character in an RP sense but that's how it works in WoW. The arguments about "my numbers are too big" aren't really that big of a thing. At this point I'm all for them converting damage done to a percentage and keeping the actual numbers out of sight.

On-topic: This may be the last raid of the expansion but I'm still betting that it won't be although the final raid may not be anything like a dozen bosses or anything. I haven't seen the expansion lore pointing to any of these guys necessarily being the ultimate final bosses. It will be interesting to find out.

[beanman12345]

I just don't see how they can go from Archimonde one of the leaders of the burning legion, to Grommash a leader of a failed army that got taken away from him in a coup. It would be huge step down in real threat level there.

[arandomuser]

I've seen people complaining for M Archi not giving a title. Here's a lame title: Defiler's End. Woooaa! or or, Savior of Draenor! uh uh, Legion's Demise. Ok I'll stop.

maybe there is a secret sinestra boss, anyways they dont add titles til like the final build if i remember deathwing and firelands, they even change the titles sometimes, like the LK title was terrible" frosts' end" but then they changed it to light of dawn" or firelands was originaly majordomo but then they changed it to firelord, they usually brainstorm good ones im sure there will be one.

[Kinzcool]

I just took a look in the client's files, and there is indeed a cinematic for when (should) Archimonde is going to be killed.

[Gadzooks]

Yea, had my demons all mixed up. However if Archimonde was summoned from the Nether or wherever he came from that would mean there are alternate versions of the Nether as well and that it's not some big overarching dimension where the demons chill out.

And, they would need some powerful sources of magic to summon him from the Nether, like happened in our universe - where that power source is on Dreanor, is yet to be explained, since the power source of the Dark Portal is Gul'dan, Chogall and what's his face. If they have the power to summon Archimonde, they can fire up the portal.

So what's under Ashran again?

[Sarkol]

I think it's exciting, and absolutely fine if this is the Final tier, but only if they release the next expansion 4-7 months after that. They said they may go for two tiers, and that's great but only if they can deliver the next expansion sharpish. But we all know Blizzard, so we can just wait and see.

[Kagthul]

I don't think it much matters any longer. Levels can be reset with each expansion if they like so how does it really matter.

The difference between raids and tiers is eroding away and really those are just labels in any case. Given the size of raids we've seen some past tiers that were smaller than a current raid so making distinctions like that is pointless. For that matter T12/T13 are about the size of a current raid. Raid A progresses to Raid B which progresses to Raid C and so on. That's all you need to know.

The reason it matters is because of content invalidation. Previously, when a single tier didn't cover 70 farking iLevels (or more with RNG Diablo Warforged Socketed crap), you still had incentive to run older content.

Take TBC, for instance - Only at the *very* end of the expansion did guilds quit running Kara. Because there weren't massive iLevel inflated jumps between Tiers, content remained relevant FAR longer. Because of procs, even, sometimes gear with a slightly lower iLevel could be beneficial to certain builds. It gave a guild more to do than "ran the current raid once this week, we're done" - theyd gear alts, even mains, in older content because the loot was still worthwhile.

This was expounded on somewhat in LK by making the daily Heroic give raid-tokens, which kept Heroics relevant, as well. Even in LK, though, there STILL werent massive iLevel gaps between tiers, meaning many guilds were still running ToC and Ulduar (usually Hard Modes) for certain items because the gear was still *relevant*.

That's why its important. Its not the between-expansion issues (though i think there could and should definitely be a smoother transition from previous raid loot to new loot) - its the overall health of the live game that suffers because of massive mudflation.

Because only 13 bosses of content are relevant (at all) it shrinks the active content of the game, makes it hard for casuals and newcomers (or returning players) to catch up and see content, etc.

[-Superman-]

This lackluster expansion will run for another year, or more. The "get shit out faster" was an outright LIE, and sadly, people are still falling for it. I say 6.3.3 or 6.4.2 (guessing) as the final patch number for the expansion. Will take them THAT long just to release the content they advertised at Blizzcon in 2013.

[IxilaFA]

Take TBC, for instance - Only at the *very* end of the expansion did guilds quit running Kara. Because there weren't massive iLevel inflated jumps between Tiers, content remained relevant FAR longer. Because of procs, even, sometimes gear with a slightly lower iLevel could be beneficial to certain builds. It gave a guild more to do than "ran the current raid once this week, we're done" - theyd gear alts, even mains, in older content because the loot was still worthwhile.

Whoa whoa, I'ma let you finish, but the only reason guilds still raided Karazhan before the end of TBC was because you had no other way to get gear. For alts and for new players the only way to get gear was Karazhan. It wasn't until ZA and badge of justice gear was introduced that people could finally skip Kara.

Don't get me wrong I loved Karazhan more than anything, but it wasn't run repeatedly because its gear was still competitively...it was run repeatedly because it was the only gear.

[axi0m]

So uhhh, what's going on with Cho'gal and Kargath?

[PBitt]

My guess is Gul'dan will escape and be a part of the next expansion, and we won't have a Hellscream as our final raid boss for two expansions in a row because I think Grom will redeem himself (sorta) and join us. I still think a third raid tier could be possible, even if it's a half-assed raid, but who knows. Otherwise we'd need expansion info really soon to not have 6.2 for a year.

[Xisa]

For those of your that haven't thought about it, Grommash is being saved to become Warchief of OUR Horde back on Azeroth. It'll give them the ability to have the kind of Warchief they originally wanted Garrosh to be, while putting an Orc back in charge of the Horde.

I have a strong feeling Thrall is going to stay on Draenor.

[Apexis]

Maybe they run away like garrosh and we go chase them into the future 20 years or so. We don't necessarily have to engage them in this expansion. Blizzard seem like they are want to time travel some more, could be we get to go to Northrend next and they play some part in that, who knows. We might not get dick for the rest of the expansion, than again they might finally get around to make a few battlegrounds or a couple Timeless Isle so people can loot chest again and kill lame elites. Were getting a shipyard this go around, maybe will get a helipad or a plane hanger next go around. Skies the limit in this expansion, at the very least the garrison just keeps on rollin.