Thread: Combat BiS

  1. #1

    Combat BiS

    I dont know if this was already answered. Combat BiS for multitarget is the same of sub BiS? Or, should I follow multi>haste>crit=vers ?

  2. #2
    Do not concern yourself with BiS unless you are in a guild that can actually kill 10/10 Mythic, in which case you probably know these things already.

    For everyone else, stat weights and fight-specific mechanics are a better thing to focus on.

  3. #3
    Combat BiS is Multistrike > Haste > Versatility > Mastery > Crit for three or more targets.

  4. #4
    I'm curious about this. Playing with Shadowcraft's Bladeflurry Calculator Haste + Frostwolf was still better for like 1-3 Adds. I'm wondering if this whole Multi > Haste is true or only a misinterpretation of the fact that its currently the easiest way to play 2 Specs in BRF somehow. But if you want to go full Combat or have multiple drops of gear already, it would be nice to find an advanced Raiders Opinion.

    I had the first progress day on Mythic Thogar this week, still not sure how i should value AoE vs. Single target Dmg on Boss and therefor Stats. But the fact that the small adds die in seconds anyway, it leads to max 3 Targets + long phases with Boss only. I may go the Haste way.
    Last edited by Barrin; 2015-04-11 at 09:02 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrin View Post
    I'm curious about this. Playing with Shadowcraft's Bladeflurry Calculator Haste + Frostwolf was still better for like 1-3 Adds. I'm wondering if this whole Multi > Haste is true or only a misinterpretation of the fact that its currently the easiest way to play 2 Specs in BRF somehow. But if you want to go full Combat or have multiple drops of gear already, it would be nice to find an advanced Raiders Opinion.

    I had the first progress day on Mythic Thogar this week, still not sure how i should value AoE vs. Single target Dmg on Boss and therefor Stats. But the fact that the small adds die in seconds anyway, it leads to max 3 Targets + long phases with Boss only. I may go the Haste way.
    I don't know 100% how ShadowCraft works since I am not an avid user of it tbh but I remember this issue stated a few days back and Fierydemise responded to it about it will value Haste higher than MS if you've got a load of MS already which is in fact also true.

    Multistrike and Haste should be equal to he together for Combat because if you've got too much MS then you going to lack Haste and if you got too much Haste, you will lack MS. However, we have a few things that makes up for this.

    The thing about MS is that 'the more enemies, the better'. This means, you can constantly add a DPS increase per enemy for MS.
    If there is any fight with more enemies, MS will be best. So, does that mean you can stack MS? Pretty much in fact because if you've got atleast three or more enemies then you can keep a fully stacked Venom Rush which is 15% base energy regen + if you have 100% uptime on SnD, that's 40% attack speed which will grant you more Combat Potency procs and especially with a slow weapon aswell in OH and we also got Ruthlessness which has a 20% chance to give us 1 CP and 25 energy. WIth two set, we have a chance of getting double CPs per SS which saves us a lot of energy aswell + we can get free Eviscerates and generate 5 CPs from our 4 set.

    We have so much passive energy regen + extra CP generators that valueing Haste higher than MS is just not worth it since enery regen is not a problem at all and we are fine in pushing through our Insights aswell.

    Also another side note is that our poison ticks can also MS which we use fast/slow for 3+ targets, so MS values even higher in that way.
    Does that mean Haste is absolute garbage then? Not at all, Haste is still something that you can benefit from that. Haste in short term, gives you the ability to push more abilities which means more SS's which means more Insight cycles.

    This is why you value Haste higher on ST/Dual Targets since your DPS won't benefit as much from additional attacks compared to being able to push faster through Insight cycles, execute more finishers and get a lot more uptime on KS and AR which means a lot more burst sustain that is required for ST/Dual Target fights.

    But all in all, Multistrike and Haste is almost equal no matter the fight and at the moment, there is really only few pieces that is changed for either more Haste or Multistrike. For example, on a fight like Gruul, if I was to play Combat, I'd value Haste but I'd go a trinket like for example Beating Heart for the initial multistrike burst and on a fight like Iron Maidens, I would value Multistrike higher but still go for a trinket like Meaty Dragonspine Trophy for the sustain Haste procs to push Insights faster for more damage.

    But the stat weights goes something sort of:
    Single Target = Haste > Multistrike - (Haste is slighty the better here)
    Dual Target = Haste > Multistrike - (They both almost equal but Haste pulls very slightly ahead)
    Triple Target = Multistrike > Haste - (Again, very close to equal but Multistrike still pulls very slightly ahead)
    Four or More = Multistrike > Haste - (Multistrike becomes more and more superior than Haste when there is more targets)

    But then you put up a good question aswell. Because MS is more DPS in AoE but that doesn't mean you put the DPS in the right places.
    Haste will grant you more ST damage than MS will, no doubt. So you have to consider on what fights is most useful, on a fight like Beastlord, you could for example go Haste because most is ST, if your guild already got good AoE since adds is just 'additional damage' is not a mechanic that will wipe the entire raid like say wolves on Flamebender that needs to die asap or adds on Operator.

    But to answer for you, I would still go MS over Haste on Operator because AoE really matters on Man at Arms and Firemenders + during splits, you need to get the all the adds down as quick as possible or else the entire raid will wipe.

  6. #6
    Thx for the full detailed descriptions of the mechanics, although they are clear to me and in the end it simply matters what does more dmg after calculation. (and that is one point, i totally don't know if Shadowcraft is reliable, especially regarding trinkets.)

    Here is my Gear with Full Haste vs. Full Multi on 3 Targets.
    i.imgur.com/Gw2TfV5.jpg
    i.imgur.com/K5XLpId.jpg

    I have ALOT of Multistrike in general with no other pieces to exchange, so Haste still has the slight edge. It's so close that one could start to consider if its worth to have like a 1% dmg increase during an add phase, an then a dps loss for the whole Single Target Bossfight. (with my gear its even not a gain) The small adds on Thogar die within seconds, so i doubt it's worth to change to Multi so that they die in 4,98 and not in 5 Seconds.

  7. #7
    I think we need to reset the conversation on haste vs MS for combat. Lets be very clear on single target haste is better than MS and its not even close. Go look at your single target stat weights on ShC, haste is probably in the 0.65-0.7 range while MS is in the 0.45-0.5 range, with stat balance being what it is thats a huge gap. Put another way the gap between haste and MS on single target is far greater than the gap between MS and vers on single target (to pick a stat that everyone hates) and by a lot. Put another way, going from full MS gems and enchants to full haste gems and enchants on single target is a 3% dps increase, thats a pretty large gap compared to what we're normally trying to get out of our optimizations (openers for instance).

    Its entirely true that MS gets better as target count increases and passes haste somewhere around 3-4 targets depending on your best gear but its important we don't lose that MS is sub-optimal on single target by a non-trivial margin. When people first started going full MS builds as combat it wasn't because that was optimal but rather because it was convenient given subtlety's stat priorities, we were under no illusion that MS was the best choice. Over time this conversation has shifted, people started saying things like "MS is better because you'll only use combat for AoE" which misses that on many encounters where most play combat you spend a substantial portion of the time with BF down, looking at some Thogar parses it looks like BF is only up about 50% of the time. Even on a fight like Maidens you spend most of the fight cleaving onto 2-3 targets where haste and MS are roughly equal, haste likely being slightly favored, and if you are doing boats then haste almost certainly pulls ahead.

    If you are choosing to go MS as a combat rogue for convenience because you also play sub thats fine but don't think its optimal, on most encounters in T17 its almost certainly not.
    Fierydemise-ShaowCraft Engine Guy
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)
    Rogue IRC: #Ravenholdt on Quakenet

  8. #8
    We all know haste is best for Combat on ST, not close.

    We also know not to play Combat on ST but to play Sub instead.

    If you do choose to play Combat on ST, you're probably doing so in the knowledge that it's sub-optimal (pun!) - or you should, anyway. It's your choice to play a sub-optimal spec, just as long as it's an actual CHOICE, i.e. you are aware you're not taking the best route.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    We all know haste is best for Combat on ST, not close.

    We also know not to play Combat on ST but to play Sub instead.

    If you do choose to play Combat on ST, you're probably doing so in the knowledge that it's sub-optimal (pun!) - or you should, anyway. It's your choice to play a sub-optimal spec, just as long as it's an actual CHOICE, i.e. you are aware you're not taking the best route.
    I'm not talking about playing combat on ST, I'm talking about combat on the widely considered combat friendly encounters. On fights like thogar you are spending >50% of the encounter (based on checking a couple top logs on WCL) with BF down, on what is effectively a pure single target encounter. Yes for the brief periods where you are cleaving down 5+ targets MS pulls ahead but when you are only cleaving 2 (man of war and cauterizer) MS and haste are roughly equal, when you are cleaving 1 (man of war) haste comes out ahead and when you are cleaving none haste is strongly ahead. I haven't gone through and looked at how often you are cleaving each number of targets but I suspect on average haste comes out ahead of MS on the overall fight. The same is likely true on flamebender (you never have enough targets for MS to come out strongly ahead), beastlord (~50% cleave uptime) and maidens (2-3 targets is where haste and MS are roughly equal), especially if you are going on the boat (substantial single target time).

    Even on the combat friendly cleave fights its not at all clear that MS is actually your best stat choice. Its a convenient stat choice because sub prioritizes MS but thats not the same as optimal.
    Fierydemise-ShaowCraft Engine Guy
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)
    Rogue IRC: #Ravenholdt on Quakenet

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    I'm not talking about playing combat on ST, I'm talking about combat on the widely considered combat friendly encounters. On fights like thogar you are spending >50% of the encounter (based on checking a couple top logs on WCL) with BF down, on what is effectively a pure single target encounter. Yes for the brief periods where you are cleaving down 5+ targets MS pulls ahead but when you are only cleaving 2 (man of war and cauterizer) MS and haste are roughly equal, when you are cleaving 1 (man of war) haste comes out ahead and when you are cleaving none haste is strongly ahead. I haven't gone through and looked at how often you are cleaving each number of targets but I suspect on average haste comes out ahead of MS on the overall fight. The same is likely true on flamebender (you never have enough targets for MS to come out strongly ahead), beastlord (~50% cleave uptime) and maidens (2-3 targets is where haste and MS are roughly equal), especially if you are going on the boat (substantial single target time).

    Even on the combat friendly cleave fights its not at all clear that MS is actually your best stat choice. Its a convenient stat choice because sub prioritizes MS but thats not the same as optimal.
    Sure, I might have been off with the correct stat weights but that's really considering that Haste is really only superior on pure ST fights. There is currently one fight at the moment where I would vouch for Haste over MS and that's Hans'gar since only either ST or dual targets.

    On Iron Maidens, debatable. I still vouch for MS over Haste on this fight because as seen on most logs, Instant Poison pulls more or even equal to Blade Flurry which is the act of a lot of MS and weapon switching. If you are doing the ST boats as Combat, yes then Haste is better but tbh, you should really just go Sub then and you will be a lot more contributing on the boats. You can still be Combat with MS on Iron Maidens if you do the Sorka boat where you cleave down the adds rather than rooting them. But overall, if you are staying down for the entire part (which you should as rogue since there is better classes for boats) then MS is definitely better imo. Yes, you are mostly cleaving two targets but you have atleast over 15 secs of hitting 3 targets with only 4 - 5 seconds delay if done properly by your tank and warlock, this is plenty of time to be cleaving with dagger and get enough poison ticks to make up for it. Also even on two targets, Haste and MS is almost equal.

    But I tend to disagree with you on the rest of the fights. Yes on ST, Haste is mostly effective and yes for the most part 50 - 60% of the time you have BF off. But those 50 - 60% times where you have Blade Flurry on is what really matters during entire fight and by going Haste, you are not making the full potential use of what is the important objectives. On Operator as an example you brought up, you only have a certain amount of time to kill the Iron Raiders during splits or else a train will wipe your raid. Also, with Flamemender + Man at Arms, you have very sustainable three target cleave aswell which are yet again important targets to be killed as fast as possible. On Operator, the faster adds dies, the less damage taken your entire raid will have which helps your healer a lot and also the faster they are dead, the more time you will have on boss anyway.

    Yes with Haste on a fight like Operator, you would do more ST damage but that's not what matters on Operator. You need adds to die fast and you need to move properly, the boss will die itself, there is plenty of time before the enrage timer.

    - Also, I know it's debatable whether Flamemender/Man at Arms should be ST down but again, then just play Sub really. You will contribute way more ST damage as Sub than Combat.

    Same for Flamebender, what matters on the fight is the wolves, if they wolves doesn't die, your entire raid will wipe. The faster they die, the less damage taken your entire raid will take and the more manageable it will be and easier for your raid to handle. MS contributes again way more than Haste in this case aswell, the boss will die, again like said, the faster the adds dies, the more time you will have on boss too. The object on Flamebender is not to kill the boss within 4 minutes, it's to make sure the wolves dies as fast as possible. When talking about DPS, you need to consider what is effective DPS. You shouldn't be aiming for number 1 overall DPS, you should be aiming for number 1 on wolves for a fight like Flamebender.

    But also to state and what I have seen on logs and personally tested, the difference between going Haste or MS on such fights like Operator/Flamebender etc. is VERY minimal in terms of ST boss damage but there is a huge difference in terms of the AoE and I think in theory, aslong as you can always hit the boss while cleaving/AoE'ing, well then you are still gonna get additional MS ticks on the boss itself, so you are not loosing out that much on ST. I am playing MS Combat on fights like Operator/Flamebender/Furnace/Beastlord etc. and I am still around the top of ST damage.

    Beastlord aswell, you have for the most part 2 targets throughout it with himself and his mount, then you got like eight adds spawning every 30 seconds plus you are also cleaving spears at some points to keep them down for the Rylak phase, so you are always having additionally more than two targets at most times on a fight like this and MS is yet again a lot more helpful than Haste would ever be in this sort of encounter and also, the faster the adds die, the less damage your tanks take and the more time you can have on the boss + his mounts.

    On pure ST fights like Gruul and Oregorger, yes, Haste is definitely better, I was off by how much excatly but on those two fights, you should really just play Sub or Assa and your ST will contribute a lot more than Combat would ever do.

    Only fight currently where you would play Combat and where Haste is best is Hans and Franzok in my opinion and through what I have personally tested and tried.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by B L A D E View Post
    Yes with Haste on a fight like Operator, you would do more ST damage but that's not what matters on Operator. You need adds to die fast and you need to move properly, the boss will die itself, there is plenty of time before the enrage timer.
    Actually this isn't entirely true. On very early progression (ie 1st/2nd week of mythic), Thogar enrage was a very real threat. My guilds first kill was just before the enrage trains came, as it was for many other guilds. Like Blast Furnace, it was a single target fight disguised as an aoe fight. You single targeted the Man at arms and thogar before all else, and passive cleave was all that was encouraged.

    Of course this barely matters now, since either farm kills, or with later mythic progress, the enrage should never be an issue

  12. #12
    I play sub ms combat os and use full sub gear with slow weapons. I only play it on fights like thogar maidens blast furnace etc and my combat dps rankings are 95th percentile for my bracket. If you're only playing combat on add fights I'd say just use sub ms and play those stats.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawmerax View Post
    Like Blast Furnace, it was a single target fight disguised as an aoe fight.
    That's what a lot of people have yet to figure out, really. Hell, the other rogue in my group and I both play Sub for Beastlord and I plan to switch to Sub for Flamebender once our group doesn't need my AoE anymore. There's just so many other classes that can on-demand blow up short-lived targets better than Combat can.

  14. #14
    So, to put some numbers behind this from simc, here are results from using the standard combat ST BiS lists:

    Targets... Single Target... Total
    1 46252 46252
    2 42787 62249
    3 43639 83240
    5 43629 122838

    Now, adjusting the BiS lists using these weights gathered at 5 targets (10k sim for quickness)
    Mult (15.26) > Haste (11.58) > Vers (9.21) > Crit (8.94) > Mastery (7.73)

    I made the following quick set to compare (things can likely be slightly improved here or there, also forgot to change weapon enchants, sue me!):

    Code:
    head=poisoners_helmet,id=115572,bonus_id=567
    neck=darklight_necklace,id=113865,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
    shoulders=poisoners_spaulders,id=115574,bonus_id=567
    back=drape_of_the_dark_hunt,id=113971,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
    chest=poisoners_tunic,id=115570,bonus_id=567
    wrists=bracers_of_shattered_stalactites,id=113935,bonus_id=567
    hands=poisoners_gloves,id=115571,bonus_id=567
    waist=girdle_of_unconquered_glory,id=113907,bonus_id=567
    legs=shattering_smash_leggings,id=113989,bonus_id=567
    feet=furnace_tenders_treads,id=113895,bonus_id=567
    finger1=spellbound_runic_band_of_unrelenting_slaughter,id=118307,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
    finger2=cinderwolf_signet,id=113917,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
    trinket1=meaty_dragonspine_trophy,id=118114,bonus_id=567
    trinket2=beating_heart_of_the_mountain,id=113931,bonus_id=567
    main_hand=hansgars_forgehammer,id=113897,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_warsong
    off_hand=hansgars_forgehammer,id=113897,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_warsong
    .

    We get the following results:

    Targets... Single Target... Total
    1 45750 45750
    2 42185 61902
    3 43043 83148
    5 43048 123271

    So, what can we note here? Well, clearly, pushing multistrike ahead of haste is a loss of around 500 dps for straight up ST damage. Which would amount to about 200k over a 7 minute fight.

    It continues to be a losss across the board both on primary target and in total for two targets. Once at 3 targets, we're shifting about 600 dps from our primary target to break even more or less with slightly improved aoe results. Probably a bad choice.

    Finally, at 5 targets. We're shifting 600 dps from our primary target to push out an improved total result of around 433 dps. That improved total must be made up by the add dps, so we're pushing an average of around 250 extra add dps per add. Likely insignificant.

    We must remember that this was done with sustained adds as well, in practise, this doesn't occur which means the gains you're getting from going mult > haste for AoE are even more diminished and even more punishing to your ST loss.

    In conclusion, it's probably not worth getting a multistrike set for combat.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  15. #15
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaite View Post
    That's what a lot of people have yet to figure out, really. Hell, the other rogue in my group and I both play Sub for Beastlord and I plan to switch to Sub for Flamebender once our group doesn't need my AoE anymore. There's just so many other classes that can on-demand blow up short-lived targets better than Combat can.
    especially when you have to compete with mages and locks :/


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    In conclusion, it's probably not worth getting a multistrike set for combat.
    that is indeed true, but that also means that its not much difference to aim for a haste set either. so its best to gem/enchant multi because then at least youre optimal for sub too!
    Last edited by mmocf6315580c1; 2015-04-24 at 02:22 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawmerax View Post
    especially when you have to compete with mages and locks :/
    Yeah, but what matters really is the kill, not the meters. Cheesing parses comes during farm.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    In conclusion, it's probably not worth getting a multistrike set for combat.
    I guess that could go the other way, too. If you're Sub/Combat, it's very possible you could have to get a HASTE set for Combat, because you already have a Multistrike set for Sub anyway.

    Also I do believe that the loss of going Haste as Sub is a lot more than going Multi as Comba, assuming you go the respective spec on fights that favor them.

    If you're talking 100% Combat of course, then the issue is a bit different; but I suppose that if you're that dedicated, you'd also have pieces to switch in for fights where you do need sustained cleave (like Maidens).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawmerax View Post
    Actually this isn't entirely true. On very early progression (ie 1st/2nd week of mythic), Thogar enrage was a very real threat. My guilds first kill was just before the enrage trains came, as it was for many other guilds. Like Blast Furnace, it was a single target fight disguised as an aoe fight. You single targeted the Man at arms and thogar before all else, and passive cleave was all that was encouraged.

    Of course this barely matters now, since either farm kills, or with later mythic progress, the enrage should never be an issue
    That is correct but all of those guilds that downed those bosses within the 1st/2nd week were all running sub anyway. There is no reason to go Combat for ST and 'passive cleave'. Sub does a better job at that, it provides way more ST and can still do very good passive cleave by keeping rupture and CT on several targets.

    And yeah, the majority, almost 90% of all those guilds had a billion boomkins, fire mages, warriors, demo warlocks and hunters that didn't lose ST by going AoE.
    Those who played Combat on that fight were doing it because they were lacking that AoE because they hadn't been able to class stack.

    Going Combat for ST would be absurd, Sub is a million damage ahead of Combat on ST.

    Also yes, just to put in context, I was mentioning the current importance on Operator, the difference between first week and second week is huge compared to now. Also, the amount of rogues in the world that would have had the opportunity to reach Operator Mythic during the 1st or 2nd week is also very little anyway.

    But as always, you've got to judge things based on your guild and their set up. If you've got a million boomkins, hunters etc. it's probably better for one to play Sub. If you don't got that and you need to provide the AoE, then yes, Combat is the way.

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