[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

His big problem is that he needs a team built around him. One that will allow him the time and space to get the farm he needs and even then its a bit of a gamble when there are other Heroes who could fit in to that sort of a team better, like Medusa. AM's prefered style of play got pushed out of the meta, and has been pushed further and further out with recent changes to comeback mechanics, creep bounties and so on. Maybe he could use one or two small changes to help bring him back in, but we probably won't be seeing much of him for the forseeable future.

AM is still very strong early, mostly immune to spells which are the driving force behind early game kills, and blink lets him ignore a lot of other early game power houses (omnislash, slark, slard). It just be time for the days of vanguard AM to return. I used to pick him in 6.83 and go offlane to shut down Jugg pickers all the time. Hard for heroes like Jugg to operate without any mana.

@Tiny
Is this the time where I make a reddit thread saying "I'm 18th best Tiny in the world according to dotabuff, here are my tips!"
I don't think you should rush Aghs anymore on Tiny. The days of going fast Aghs and taking towers and farming jungle are over. Build quick attack speed and kill people early abusing the damage from Grow. You should probably have at least 2 core items before you consider an Aghs. The bonus it gives you is very overvalued for how much it costs and it's not uncommon for me to be in games where enemy Tiny has blink Aghs and a hyperstone and is completely irrelevant in team fights after his stun is gone.

[Charge me Doctor]

You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.

You are right, throw here mana costs of items and they are quite balanced. Eul's scepter mana cost is 175, quite a number in early and mid game. In case of Lina, she has to have 655 - 1130 mana depending on here levels to pop someone up with her Eul's combo. So Nyx mana burning her will give her a lot of problems. As well as mid OD. Or Silencer throwing last world on her (in this case i doubt that she will ever use the scepter offensively, she will need it to dispel global silence)

It also would be nice to see more stuff to deal with offensive cyclone, not just Pudges hook. But outside of lack of things to deal with cyclone - there is plenty of things to deal with Lina or with targeted ally.

Things i wouldn't mind be nerfed on the scepter is item cost and active range. Also i wouldn't mind making laguna blade disjointable for peepz to juke it with shit like glimmers cape or native stealth. Or her MS boost gone.

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@Tiny
Is this the time where I make a reddit thread saying "I'm 18th best Tiny in the world according to dotabuff, here are my tips!"
I don't think you should rush Aghs anymore on Tiny. The days of going fast Aghs and taking towers and farming jungle are over. Build quick attack speed and kill people early abusing the damage from Grow. You should probably have at least 2 core items before you consider an Aghs. The bonus it gives you is very overvalued for how much it costs and it's not uncommon for me to be in games where enemy Tiny has blink Aghs and a hyperstone and is completely irrelevant in team fights after his stun is gone.

Is it again worth it to go hyper/ribs buriza then?

[Jester Joe]

I mean idk man you must have never watched a game of pro DotA in your life or something. Tiny isn't even picked to manfight other people in the first place; he's picked with Io to fuck people up with Relocate-AvaToss in between farming enough items that he can turn rax into dust in the span of seconds.

He's a core. Shouldn't be played as anything else in a serious game. End of story. His supposed inability to "stay glued on people" is irrelevant (and in reality not an issue since you almost always get Blink on a Tiny that has to do any sort of fighting) when you pick him with Io and Relocate on top of people and pick him to slay buildings rather than heroes in the first place.

Well, I've seen pro games, just not a single one with Tiny. But yeah with Io he could wreck I'd imagine, sadly I didn't have an Io. Although it sounds like my mistake probably was focusing Aghs from the suggestions so far, and by the time I had anything, Windranger would shackle me, ult me, and I'd die.

[PizzaSHARK]

You're ignoring the fact that those items have a cost attributed to them. They don't come free. They cost gold and an item slot. That's gold that players who don't have issues with over extending or skill shots can use to get better items.

The gold cost is irrelevant, and so is the slot cost. These items are also "best in slot" items for the heroes that have those item-hero interactions. Lina will never sell her cheatstick. Slark will never sell his Shadowblade, instead upgrading it to Silver Edge eventually. These items are quite simply the best possible use of that gold, for that hero.

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You are right, throw here mana costs of items and they are quite balanced. Eul's scepter mana cost is 175, quite a number in early and mid game. In case of Lina, she has to have 655 - 1130 mana depending on here levels to pop someone up with her Eul's combo. So Nyx mana burning her will give her a lot of problems. As well as mid OD. Or Silencer throwing last world on her (in this case i doubt that she will ever use the scepter offensively, she will need it to dispel global silence)

It also would be nice to see more stuff to deal with offensive cyclone, not just Pudges hook. But outside of lack of things to deal with cyclone - there is plenty of things to deal with Lina or with targeted ally.

Things i wouldn't mind be nerfed on the scepter is item cost and active range. Also i wouldn't mind making laguna blade disjointable for peepz to juke it with shit like glimmers cape or native stealth. Or her MS boost gone.

Mana cost is completely irrelevant to an INT hero. It doesn't matter how much it costs if it guarantees you a kill without effort. That's part of why Storm Spirit is so broken - it doesn't matter how much zip costs if the person he jumps on is dead before they can fight back.

The mana cost increase only nerfed it for heroes that didn't really buy Eul's much to begin with - like if you wanted to try buying it on a Sven or a Tiny or a Panda or something as a utility item for your team. For those heroes, Eul's is no longer an option because it costs more than the 10 INT gives in mana.

But for SF, Lina, and basically any other caster hero? They don't give two shits about the mana cost, so the mana cost nerf was entirely pointless.

[minteK917]

Well, I've seen pro games, just not a single one with Tiny. But yeah with Io he could wreck I'd imagine, sadly I didn't have an Io. Although it sounds like my mistake probably was focusing Aghs from the suggestions so far, and by the time I had anything, Windranger would shackle me, ult me, and I'd die.

When the enemy team has many cc... bkb? I mean im not sure how anyone could not see tiny as a carry. You deal 300 damage without items jesus. You just get 2 core items with attack speed, then eventually aghs... you wont have to stick to target all game, because youll cleave half their team every swing. Plus Tiny has the choice to play Rat too, one of your attack speed item can just be manta style. Nobody kills building faster then aghs/manta tiny.

[Charge me Doctor]

Mana cost is completely irrelevant to an INT hero. It doesn't matter how much it costs if it guarantees you a kill without effort. That's part of why Storm Spirit is so broken - it doesn't matter how much zip costs if the person he jumps on is dead before they can fight back.

The mana cost increase only nerfed it for heroes that didn't really buy Eul's much to begin with - like if you wanted to try buying it on a Sven or a Tiny or a Panda or something as a utility item for your team. For those heroes, Eul's is no longer an option because it costs more than the 10 INT gives in mana.

But for SF, Lina, and basically any other caster hero? They don't give two shits about the mana cost, so the mana cost nerf was entirely pointless.

How so? Even if you are int hero, you still have limited mana pool and often very slow mana regen (compared to how much mana you leak out when do a combo). Int heroes do not get +1k mana for free so they can spam spells. If it costs 700 mana out of your 700 mana to pop someone up - you'd better to have these 700 mana. Simple mana burn, even mana break and this point, or defensive light strike array will fuck you up. To make it more simple - you have to walk from base, kill someone with your imba combo and go back to base to refill mana. But it never happens (and not because AM/Nyx/KotL/Silencer/Pugna are not popular).

Granted, you have a cheat for this - the bottle, cheap refillable source of 210 mana. It costs just 700 gold and solves all your mana issues in early/mid game. Throw arcane boots on top of that - mana is not a problem anymore for burst-heavy characters. Maybe we should look in this direction instead? How it easy and cheap became to solve your mana problems in early/mid game (and these problems, at least for me, was one of main features of the game).

In case of SS - he is broken because mana cost of his "no range" ult is insignificant (thanks to bottle) and it gives you huge benefits (invulnerability and damage boost). It has nothing to do with him being OOM after killing someone. If it actually happens he most likely dies of enemy teammates, Lina is quite immune to this thanks to shitton of MS.

SF is completely different story. Without items (windwalk/cyclone) SF literally can't do max damage with his ult. It's quite fair (except of the scepters range) to use it this way, same as for Lina. It's quite an investment both gold and mana cost to get what you get from this item. The only moment it gets irrelevant is when 175 mana cost becomes irrelevant. And it's too easy to do with very cheap items. That's part of a problem i see in this, not players using item as the item was designed to be used. Cheap mana regen items is one thing, cheap reusable mana potions is another. I think this problem was overlooked and it has to be addressed. But i don't think it will be addressed, at least not in a single patch.

And it's quite funny that this whole discussion rolls around burst character reliably picking off enemies who run around solo. Isn't its, like, their whole purpose? Because i can't believe that Lina can go 1v2, cyclone someone, stand there for 2 seconds, throw combo killing one of enemies, while second enemy does... Does what exactly? Just stands there? Can't he, like, smack her? Or CC her?

[Lysah]

Is it again worth it to go hyper/ribs buriza then?

Not sure I have a direct build in mind for Tiny anymore. I've just realized that 4200g for virtually 0 damage increase doesn't seem worth it really anymore. If you buy it so that you can farm harder, fine, but you should buy it realizing it's essentially a slightly worse battlefury. I would probably go manta/SY + AC first. I find Tiny doesn't usually have enough slots for Daedalus late game, sadly, which is why I don't consider him a proper carry, either. What he IS very good at, though, is breaking buildings, and winning early game, and farming quickly enough to shut down most carries before THEY get items like daedalus.

[Charge me Doctor]

Not sure I have a direct build in mind for Tiny anymore. I've just realized that 4200g for virtually 0 damage increase doesn't seem worth it really anymore. If you buy it so that you can farm harder, fine, but you should buy it realizing it's essentially a slightly worse battlefury. I would probably go manta/SY + AC first. I find Tiny doesn't usually have enough slots for Daedalus late game, sadly, which is why I don't consider him a proper carry, either. What he IS very good at, though, is breaking buildings, and winning early game, and farming quickly enough to shut down most carries before THEY get items like daedalus.

Well i really "enjoy" seeing enemy Tiny who rushed Aghs TPing to tower via wisp and murdering it to the ground with MoM active. Not a foolproof strategy, but it's very annoying to go "yay, free Roshan, oh wait our rax are gone". Frankly, same can be told about CK+wisp.
It was also fun to see Tiny one shotting supports with crits, or melting through Naixs' lifesteal and stomping him into the ground. Simple Hypertone gives Tiny a huge powerspike, put a crit item on top of that extra 100 damage he gets from ult - perfect melee carry. The problem is delivering said carry to proper targets.

[PizzaSHARK]

Lina's MS is definitely a huge issue. If she throws out her 3 spells she gets +120 IAS and +15% ms for several seconds with just one point in Fiery Soul. It allows her to instantly remove anyone from the fight (which is fine, it's a major part of her character design) and then very often just walk away from any reprisal, especially once she gets Eul's (which is not fine.)

It's not really surprising that passive is so stupidly OP when it's one of the most sought-after skills in Ability Draft. Getting Fiery Soul and any kind of spell with a remotely low cooldown is pretty much an automatic win in AD.

[Jester Joe]

When the enemy team has many cc... bkb? I mean im not sure how anyone could not see tiny as a carry. You deal 300 damage without items jesus. You just get 2 core items with attack speed, then eventually aghs... you wont have to stick to target all game, because youll cleave half their team every swing. Plus Tiny has the choice to play Rat too, one of your attack speed item can just be manta style. Nobody kills building faster then aghs/manta tiny.

Off the top of my head, shackleshot is the only cc I can remember that they had, or at least the only person who would use theirs.

And like I said already, from everyone's posts it seems like my mistake was going damage over attack speed.

[EqualWin]

as tiny I think you just go blink treads aghs mom w.e u want, blink is just way too good.. help u with farm and u get ez kills since u can kill 1 shot one with ur combo.

aghs ac travel bfly/satanic manta/bkb Daedalus is one of the best item on tiny late game.

[Jester Joe]

as tiny I think you just go blink treads aghs mom w.e u want, blink is just way too good.. help u with farm and u get ez kills since u can kill 1 shot one with ur combo.

aghs ac travel bfly/satanic manta/bkb Daedalus is one of the best item on tiny late game.

Yeah I went like, Treads->Blink->Aghs or Crystalys, the last thing I got was a Hyperstone, so that's the worst choice I did I guess.

[Glorious Leader]

The gold cost is irrelevant, and so is the slot cost. These items are also "best in slot" items for the heroes that have those item-hero interactions. Lina will never sell her cheatstick. Slark will never sell his Shadowblade, instead upgrading it to Silver Edge eventually. These items are quite simply the best possible use of that gold, for that hero

Blink dagger is 2200? That's almost a sang or yasha, it's a hyper stone, it's almost a neschermedts. If you knew how not to.ober extend yourself you'd could get away with not needing blink and get your actual core items faster.

How.is a Eul's again? I get that these items make sense on some heroes but the idea that their so powerful cause they save your ass from playing poorly and thus they need to be nerfed is dumb. They have a gold cost you pay the price it's a non irellevant cost because if you played properly and didn't extend or landed your skill shots you couldmskipnthd Eul's blink dagger whatever and go for actual.items that increase your ability to kick ass.

[PizzaSHARK]

Blink dagger is 2200? That's almost a sang or yasha, it's a hyper stone, it's almost a neschermedts. If you knew how not to.ober extend yourself you'd could get away with not needing blink and get your actual core items faster.

How.is a Eul's again? I get that these items make sense on some heroes but the idea that their so powerful cause they save your ass from playing poorly and thus they need to be nerfed is dumb. They have a gold cost you pay the price it's a non irellevant cost because if you played properly and didn't extend or landed your skill shots you couldmskipnthd Eul's blink dagger whatever and go for actual.items that increase your ability to kick ass.

You aren't reading.

These items are the best items for the gold for these heroes. Period. There are no better items you can spend that gold on. A Eul's is more powerful and useful than any other item for Lina. A Blink Dagger is more powerful and useful than any other item for, like... I dunno, 30 or 40 different heroes.

[LiiLoSNK]

1 silence and a detection completely shutting down a non-bkb core makes slark pretty weak and somewhat easy to deal with. Needless to say he's obviously currently one of the lowest winrates of may + june. Plus the influx of people playing the equally tard friendly hero by the name of BLOODSEEKER, the sanguine seeking d-bag in the current top tier meta, means that people are afraid to pick slark anyways so I don't understand the slark hate as much as I would have understood it from like 3 or 6 months ago.

Also how is there not an FPL discussion yet? Ti5 isn't the only thing that "matters" in dota.

The pub-trash/streamer wars are equally important.

[M1r4g3]

You aren't reading.

These items are the best items for the gold for these heroes. Period. There are no better items you can spend that gold on. A Eul's is more powerful and useful than any other item for Lina. A Blink Dagger is more powerful and useful than any other item for, like... I dunno, 30 or 40 different heroes.

Id rather get glimmer/shadowblade/blink on lina, spending 2.7k gold just to be able to land a 250 dmg stun ''somewhat reliably'' i mean you could just go and get a dagon for the same price and just not skill your stun and deal even more dmg with 0 skillshots insta `0 cast point zapping.
Yeah and 100% of all heroes go for boots, should they remove boots or nerf them enough so that people have to chose between them and mangos?

[LiiLoSNK]

i definitely dont agree that euls is 2 strong and NEEDS a nerf, but you are kinda underselling it, especially for a lina.

[PizzaSHARK]

Got bored and bought the compendium chest thing. Got the Doomy set, which looks like ass. I'll trade it to someone else if they want it.

[M1r4g3]

i definitely dont agree that euls is 2 strong and NEEDS a nerf, but you are kinda underselling it, especially for a lina.

Not saying its bad just that compared to the other items around that price bracket its better or worse depending who you're playing against.

[PizzaSHARK]

Id rather get glimmer/shadowblade/blink on lina, spending 2.7k gold just to be able to land a 250 dmg stun ''somewhat reliably'' i mean you could just go and get a dagon for the same price and just not skill your stun and deal even more dmg with 0 skillshots insta `0 cast point zapping.
Yeah and 100% of all heroes go for boots, should they remove boots or nerf them enough so that people have to chose between them and mangos?

lol, shadowblade.

No, Eul's is the best choice for Lina even if you can land your stuns already. Why? Because it makes your stun unavoidable. 700 range cyclone into LSA into facerolling and it's a free kill with zero risk to the Lina. The only way to avoid it is to be magic immune or don't get within 700 range of Lina when her eul's is available.

It also gives her good MP regen, a bit of INT, and a fuckton of move speed in a single slot.

Eul's is by far the best possible item on Lina, just as it is on a lot of heroes. It's because the item is hideously overpowered.