[Megathread] DotA 2

[Sarthed]

I didn't know people complained about supports. What was so bad about venge/jakiro? I understand ogre being annoying but were you really getting worked up about swaps?

[Deleted]

You haven't faced the true Huskar pickers yet. Those who know when to pick him when you got nothing to deal with it and then can actually play the hero.

Bloodseeker is actually so easy to deal with. He dies way too fast with a badly used Q on himself. The only thing cancer about him is laning aginst him when everyone on your team stays at 30% HP.

Leshrac and QoP and Storm can be shut down on lane because of their inherent squishiness. Leshrac still needs a Bloodstone before he gets tanky and you can easily shut him down before that and most mid players (anyone below 6k) don't know how to come back. Storm and QoP same thing. If you catch a QoP that is underfarmed she just dies. Same with Storm and Leshrac and Lina. A Troll? Nope. If he somehow manages to get to you you're dead, even if you got 5k gold on him. I remember playing QoP and I had an Orchid i think against a Troll with like Phase Boots and I thought "hey, let's just Blink, Orchid, Scream, Ult him and hit him to death". Nope. Troll survives with like 100 HP, slows you, runs at you and kills you cause you miss all your attacks and get stunned.

[EqualWin]

I didn't know people complained about supports. What was so bad about venge/jakiro? I understand ogre being annoying but were you really getting worked up about swaps?

ogre was cancer, venge well, she has everything and annoying swap she wasn't that bad but i am saying she was really good.

jakiro offlane was annoying af, support not that much unless he farms.

- - - Updated - - -

bs is cancer but if you pick heroes like tiny lina qop etc (with burst) also LC wk r pgood vs him.

[Jester Joe]

So it's Reborn now...
How do you like it actually?

Reborn is doo doo butter.

Well, the graphics are nice now, but like, I don't like the interface of Reborn honestly that much...and the bugs nonstop like people said. I also haven't had a game yet where someone hasn't abandoned.

[Lysah]

Leshrac and QoP and Storm can be shut down on lane because of their inherent squishiness. Leshrac still needs a Bloodstone before he gets tanky and you can easily shut him down before that and most mid players (anyone below 6k) don't know how to come back. Storm and QoP same thing. If you catch a QoP that is underfarmed she just dies. Same with Storm and Leshrac and Lina. A Troll? Nope. If he somehow manages to get to you you're dead, even if you got 5k gold on him. I remember playing QoP and I had an Orchid i think against a Troll with like Phase Boots and I thought "hey, let's just Blink, Orchid, Scream, Ult him and hit him to death". Nope. Troll survives with like 100 HP, slows you, runs at you and kills you cause you miss all your attacks and get stunned.

I've literally never seen a Leshrac get shut down. Same with Storm, it's too easy to simply go hide in the jungle, those heroes can clear every camp out and nuke every creep wave you try to push, if you don't have a hero like clock that can jump on them you're never going to kill them unless they overextend.

I mean, you can make the same argument about literally any hero. "If they have no items or levels they die easy." Okay, yeah, we can agree on that. How do you propose you stop the best farming heroes in the game that are also extremely mobile from doing so? Ganking jungle isn't really an option when your team loses one or more lanes and they can win the team fight just as easily as you can. You must get much, much better allies than I do, in my shitcan pub league people can barely last hit. People get uninterrupted jungles and still somehow can't farm faster than 150 gpm.

Look at this
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786695945
I finally picked a real hero and look at that, we won. Storm got predictably WRECKED mid and our seeker somehow lost jungle against himself, but there's a reason BH is the highest winrate hero in the game. Just sad that this is what it takes to win a game of dota now.

The secret to Troll was to simply stop trying to 1v1 him. Yes, he's the absolute king of duels, we all know that and knew that the entire patch. You deserve to die if you intentionally blink near him. You can simply...not blink near him when it's a 1v1 situation and you have no backup or stun. The same isn't true if the roles are reversed, you can't simply not blink on top of Storm or QoP or euls lesh or lina, they initiate on you and since two of them can teleport across the map and the other two have 500 movespeed, it's pretty hard to avoid.

[Deleted]

I shut down Leshracs and Storms every day. By shut down I mean them having like Brown boots at level 8-9. They just die if they fight. 15-16 min Bloodstone is good for Storm. If shut down he maybe gets it at 21-25 minutes. That's plenty of time to deal with him. By 16 min you can have Blink Desolator on TA. What can a Leshrac with Bottle, Arcane Boots (needs it for sustain/Point Booster do against that? He literally dies in 2 hits.

People don't jungle. When are you going to understand that.

[Lysah]

I shut down Leshracs and Storms every day. By shut down I mean them having like Brown boots at level 8-9. They just die if they fight.

People don't jungle. When are you going to understand that.

Watch this game, Storm got "shut down," he didn't have his first item (Orchid) until like...30 minutes? But it didn't matter. Admittedly, track gold is a huge part of that, but the fact remains that he ended up more farmed than anyone on the enemy team (except their whiteknight lesh picker) 10 minutes later. And, honestly, the only reason it took him so long to get Orchid was because our jungle was being farmed out by seeker the whole time, so he literally had nowhere to farm.

EU really must be a different world, because this is literally how every game goes for me:
Two mids clash, one wins, one loses. Winner pushes t1s with his team and tries to gank. Loser farms jungle and catches up. Now both are gods and everyone else cries and begs for mercy in team fights. Whichever hard carry has farmed more at this point usually wins the game for his team after the mids have finished slaughtering ~3 heroes each by themselves each before finally being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. "Shutting down" hasn't existed in several patches, people can always find farm. In fact, since creep gold was nerfed, it is MORE MEANINGLESS THAN EVER to win your lane. Team fights matter so much more, and objectives. It's also why BH is so absurd, every gold mechanic change is another buff to track.

Having been the highest and lower MMR on my team throughout this experience the past few days and played with a range frm 4200 to 5600 MMR in NA servers, I can safely say that the difference between 4500 and 5500 is virtually nonexistant. 80% of the players at this MMR know how to find farm, and as long as they aren't making outright mistakes, i.e. tilting, will get items and you cannot possibly coordinate a public team well enough to stop it. It would take repeated smoke ganks and extremely aggressive warding and counter warding to make that magic happen, and if you can spam smoke all you want, nobody will come, they'd rather farm. Some heroes are much slower at farming, and will fall massively behind and never catch up if they have a bad early game. None of those heroes get picked.

[Deleted]

Having been the highest and lower MMR on my team throughout this experience the past few days and played with a range frm 4200 to 5600 MMR in NA servers, I can safely say that the difference between 4500 and 5500 is virtually nonexistant. 80% of the players at this MMR know how to find farm, and as long as they aren't making outright mistakes, i.e. tilting, will get items and you cannot possibly coordinate a public team well enough to stop it. It would take repeated smoke ganks and extremely aggressive warding and counter warding to make that magic happen, and if you can spam smoke all you want, nobody will come, they'd rather farm. Some heroes are much slower at farming, and will fall massively behind and never catch up if they have a bad early game. None of those heroes get picked.

The difference between 5600 and 4200 is massive. I don't know what you're smoking. I've played through the 4k bracket and people just die in this bracket. The most notable thing about 4k players is that they get caught out way too often for no purpose. They don't have a purpose while playing. As they get higher to 5.5k+ they start to do stuff for a reason yet not always too good. 4k players also don't react to events happneing around the map accordingly. It's a massive difference. And I got a lot of games under my belt to confirm my data. My friend also plays a lot of ranked and he agrees with me for sure. 4k players are a bunch of do nothings. 5k players are decent. Above 6k you start to notice less difference but it's still there. 7k players are usually stronger mechanically and make better decisions overall.

Your replay shows me another trash Storm like I said in previous posts. He came back through fighting. That works sometimes. He didn't jungle. You still haven't shown me a Storm that was shut down on lane that jungled to top net worth or even close.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1783974715

That is a 5k do nothing player. He was 5.2k PL. He literally lost the game single handedly. Also shows you the weakness of Storm. I could do nothing with my itemization because I relied on PL actually doing something. Why is he just 5.2k? Because he doesn't pressure the lanes when we were stomping them and forcing them to 5 man. Only Medusa farmed alone and all that PL needed to do was throw lances at Dusa early game and pressure that lane. Either their entire team moves there and we pressure all others lanes or Dusa has to back and PL pushes that lane. Instead we have a do nothing PL that farms jungle and they run around as a team farming near their towers waiting for Dusa to get fat.

[EqualWin]

Look at this
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786695945
I finally picked a real hero and look at that, we won. Storm got predictably WRECKED mid and our seeker somehow lost jungle against himself, but there's a reason BH is the highest winrate hero in the game. Just sad that this is what it takes to win a game of dota now.

pretty sure any hero with bh can comeback after few kills, hes that stupid

[Lysah]

The difference between 5600 and 4200 is massive. I don't know what you're smoking. I've played through the 4k bracket and people just die in this bracket. The most notable thing about 4k players is that they get caught out way too often for no purpose. They don't have a purpose while playing. As they get higher to 5.5k+ they start to do stuff for a reason yet not always too good. 4k players also don't react to events happneing around the map accordingly. It's a massive difference. And I got a lot of games under my belt to confirm my data. My friend also plays a lot of ranked and he agrees with me for sure. 4k players are a bunch of do nothings. 5k players are decent. Above 6k you start to notice less difference but it's still there. 7k players are usually stronger mechanically and make better decisions overall.

You are a EU player, yes? Your experiences are irrelevant. 6k does not really exist in NA, you are already top 200 if your MMR starts with 6. EU ratings are a solid 1000-1500 above NA. Comparing 4k to 5k in your bracket is like comparing 3k to 4k in mine, and yes, I would agree there is a huge difference, 3k players definitely do just walk around and die a lot.

Also, the point of my rambling is so say, in so many words, that this patch is not fun at all. It has all of the problems previous patches have had with the meta game, and then so many more. I can see how this patch might be fun for someone that always plays mid. Mids get to be the hero more now than ever before, and are almost always vastly ahead than the other 8 heroes in the game, which means they're always stronger by default and having fun stomping idiots with brown boots. However, I am not a mid player, I do not enjoy mid, and since this is a mid player patch, this patch is easily the worst patch I've played in a long time.

pretty sure any hero with bh can comeback after few kills, hes that stupid

I agree, that's why I picked him. The only hero in the game that can more or less guarantee my allies get gold. It's just an example of how losing your lane means nothing in this meta. I don't even know how much track gold Storm got, honestly, he died first in most fights early and mid game, most of the time I ganked with him it just ended up getting me 800g and him dead. The point here is that, if we had sent a hero like Slardar mid (random example), he would have been poor and fed the entire game after losing that badly. Storm ended up being extremely relevant and doing a lot of work regardless of his awful start. The popular mids right now simply cannot be stopped completely, only delayed. It's a huge reason they get picked for mid, and it's a huge reason they pretty much all need nerfs in some way or another.

As far as playing ranked goes, if I don't just rage quit this patch entirely I'll probably just start first picking BH every single game.

[Deleted]

You are a EU player, yes? Your experiences are irrelevant. 6k does not really exist in NA, you are already top 200 if your MMR starts with 6. EU ratings are a solid 1000-1500 above NA. Comparing 4k to 5k in your bracket is like comparing 3k to 4k in mine, and yes, I would agree there is a huge difference, 3k players definitely do just walk around and die a lot.

Not really. There are enough players in 3k and 4k in NA too. The reason EU have many high MMR players is that there are more players around that MMR to play with/against. NA MMR just starts to differ from EU MMR at 6k+ MMR. A 5k NA player is not the equivalent of a 6k MMR player in EU. I can already tell from Arteezy's stream.

[Lysah]

A 5k NA player is not the equivalent of a 6k MMR player in EU. I can already tell from Arteezy's stream.

Not saying that's necessarily true, that doesn't mean the ratings are equal, either, though. EU is probably inflated because of more games played and more players. That will lead to some degree of skill inflation as well, probably not a clean thousand yet, but it does mean that I don't think you really know what it's like to be on a team of 4500s in NA until you play NA.

[Deleted]

Not saying that's necessarily true, that doesn't mean the ratings are equal, either, though. EU is probably inflated because of more games played and more players. That will lead to some degree of skill inflation as well, probably not a clean thousand yet, but it does mean that I don't think you really know what it's like to be on a team of 4500s in NA until you play NA.

I will try.

I believe ritsu is for sure one of the most promising up-and-coming players. I saw his skill when he played against Arteezy in FPL. The way a top tier core player pressures the map by just farming shows a lot about how good they are.

[Lysah]

I will try.

I believe ritsu is for sure one of the most promising up-and-coming players. I saw his skill when he played against Arteezy in FPL. The way a top tier core player pressures the map by just farming shows a lot about how good they are.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786947840
There you go. Lesh got shut down and he never came back. Of course, we raxed at like 21 minutes so he never got a chance to. Games are so much nicer the very rare occasion you can go roaming CK and your team picks good heroes and wins all 3 lanes.

Even still, 1-11 Lesh has 134 CS in 30 minutes and still rocking 300 gpm.

[Deleted]

Results so far from US East pubbing from 1 game:

Had a griefer from minute zero that AFK woods. Everyone is fucking bad. I faced an Ember who didn't use shield at all and if I didn't play with delay I'm sure he'd die. Had a Mirana shoot 5 arrows mid and miss all of them instead of just fuck with a BS woods. She then laughs at my Meld max against Ember. Rofl.

Conclusions so far: Can't really draw any conclusions as our supposed 5k Veno was griefer but that Ember was for sure bad, too bad I missed all my Melds due to delay.

By the way, rocking 300 GPM is bad. Real bad. Any mid player on any hero should have at least 400 GPM. Doesn't matter how shut down you are. If you don't break 400 GPM when you lose you are a trash mid. And even then, 400 GPM is on the low end when you're losing. You should average 500-600 GPM when losing.

[EqualWin]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786947840
There you go. Lesh got shut down and he never came back. Of course, we raxed at like 21 minutes so he never got a chance to. Games are so much nicer the very rare occasion you can go roaming CK and your team picks good heroes and wins all 3 lanes.

Even still, 1-11 Lesh has 134 CS in 30 minutes and still rocking 300 gpm.

the fuck is that ck, did u roam or something

[Deleted]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1787761588

Tell me there wasn't a massive difference between Riki and BS vs rest of their team. They were for sure much better. Both BS and Riki were much higher MMR than rest of their team. Are you also surpised that DP is the lowest in our team?

[Jester Joe]

Results so far from US East pubbing from 1 game:
Everyone is fucking bad.

Welcome to my turf.

[Deleted]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1788844916

Yeah, US East isn't better after 3 games. Actually, the 4k players on US East feel more entitled and really suck dick. Just watch that game and tell me which players were 4k and which were 5k and above. It's blatantly obvious.

[Lysah]

Everyone is fucking bad.

True
And 300 GPM when you get raxed at 15 minutes and are 1-11 is definitely not bad. It's bad if it's 30 minutes and you still have towers and you can farm jungle, sure, but when you literally cannot ever leave your fountain it's pretty solid. The point here is that he pretty much got kicked to his fountain straight from level 1, died repeatedly mid (was level 5 when Lina was 7 iirc), and still got 134 cs before he lost. He managed to keep up with the Drow on his team who literally avoided all of us the entire game and sat in the jungle with MoM while Lesh tried to defend in vain.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1788844916

Yeah, US East isn't better after 3 games. Actually, the 4k players on US East feel more entitled and really suck dick. Just watch that game and tell me which players were 4k and which were 5k and above. It's blatantly obvious.

Is it really that obvious? When the lower rated players are also the most fragile heroes on the team, they're bound to do poorly, this is not a support meta.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786391577

the fuck is that ck, did u roam or something

Yeah, ganked mid at level 1, then went bot, then went back to mid, then top, only time I spent in lane was taking over mid for a while when he went jungling. CK is actually a stupidly good ganker and will probably be my second pick for when idiots pick my BH.