Whatever Blizzard did to make WOTLK, it was a masterpiece.

[PepeLePewPew]

And what heroic dungeons was a casual excluded from in TBC?

Please, take your time. I'm excited.

Again, this is speaking from personal experience and that of others I played with who were not in raiding guilds.
I remember having a hell of a time running the Netherstorm dungeons.

Casuals could raid just fine, the only big big problem was the 10 man Karazhan to 25 man SSC/TK/Gruuls jump. That was not good design, whereas Flexible fixes that problem now. I'd suggest adding in account wide attunements too for alt fanatics.

The player base was much less inclusive during TBC. If you were a casual not in a raiding guild it was difficult to find a group.

A Casual at the end of WOTLK had to skip Naxx, Ulduar, TOC because the ICC 5 mans gave better gear so they were obsolete. What the hell does dungeoned at what level they had time for mean? Everything was the same level or you were skipped to it.

You weren't required to skip anything unless you were focused on the latest gear rather than playing content (I never cared about gear as much as the typical hardcore player). I played Ulduar after TOC because I was unsubbed at it's release and didn't care that there was no useful gear. 'Whatever level' refers to raiding I suppose. There was always something to do as I remember, and most of it remained relevant for play if not for gear (even as the dungeons got easier they were still fun).

You'd hit level 80, do ToC 5 mans and go into TOC Raids. Or, a bit later you'd do the ICC 5 mans and then skip right into ICC raiding. Bye bye previous content you either trivialize or don't get any reward from.

There was problem on both ends, but the previous model was fixable with flexible and other things.

Skipping content isn't required. It was still there and fun if not challenging for a hardcore player, who had the latest raid tier. My guild was happy to not be realm first when we got our rusted drakes. It didn't matter.

[Daffan]

Again, this is speaking from personal experience and that of others I played with who were not in raiding guilds.
I remember having a hell of a time running the Netherstorm dungeons.

The player base was much less inclusive during TBC. If you were a casual not in a raiding guild it was difficult to find a group.


You weren't required to skip anything unless you were focused on the latest gear rather than playing content (I never cared about gear as much as the typical hardcore player). I played Ulduar after TOC because I was unsubbed at it's release and didn't care that there was no useful gear. 'Whatever level' refers to raiding I suppose. There was always something to do as I remember, and most of it remained relevant for play if not for gear (even as the dungeons got easier they were still fun).


Skipping content isn't required. It was still there and fun if not challenging for a hardcore player, who had the latest raid tier. My guild was happy to not be realm first when we got our rusted drakes. It didn't matter.

I think your definition of casual is wrong if you think it was a hell of a time doing Arcatraz, Botanica and Mechanar. They were much shorter time wise than raids, only required 5 people and so forth.

Casual just means not much time to play, not horrible player. Like a casual job is a small amount of hours, doesn't mean you are a bad at it.

You say you weren't required to skip anything - While true. What about Warlords of Dreanor? The exactly same scenario is happening, are many people doing Highmaul or BRF (other than LFR)? Nope. Because the gear is crap and the content is no longer the same feel or challenge so not many people cares about it. Most people in this game just do the latest stuff on LFR and stop.

in WOTLK after ICC. "OMG WHERE IS THE RAIDS???" Ruby Sanctum came out and was a heap of crap because they weren't planning on making anything. That problem came about because every. single. player in the game was doing ICC (Thanks to free 232 ICC 5 mans) and most had beat it with the crazy buff. They had nothing left to do.

Come Siege of Orgrimmar the same problem applies or Dragon Soul. Tons of people with nothing relevant to do because they skipped everything

[sam86]

Any good memories about vanilla is attributed to nostalgia. Any good memories about wrath? Must have been the greatest expansion!

The expansion was the first expansion to stop the growth. Whatever vanilla and BC did, made the game super popular. Wrath was just hitching a ride. A lot of players (not all!) here loved the changes to Wrath. Those who did not probably quit the game.

the expansion had a growth and stayed at peak for a while, so pls use another argument

loken was (in my early 2009 thread) a specific named exception. Contemporary threads after wotlk release (including mine linked above) tell a different story than you do.

like Occulus? Or Old Kingdom (also easier than either but still)

Massive shitpost.
Premonition World First Sep 17th.
ICC was released in December.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ty-by-Ensidia/
Yeah not december but still for 'some' reason i trust that link more than yours, and i wonder when did they actually get it then

More absurd, I leveled 2 characters mainly solo'ing instance content in classic/bc zones while i was still within xp range for them during mid-wotlk. That is how much the pendulum had swung. (once again, this isn't one of the typical ex post facto hero claims. I can link the threads on wowhead mid-wotlk where I discussed what I was doing, problems I had, etc.)

How many heriloms u were using, or were u using a hunter/warlock? because a hunter can solo since vanilla, just in 10 days a single dungeon (and i did it myself just for challenge, and was boring)

TBC>WotLK.

In TBC all of the content stayed completely relevant till the end of the expansion. Being a tier4 raider was perfectly fine when tier6 was released.
No shortcuts and the longest time between tier was 10months. But even that didn't matter because all the content was relevant.

Blizzard made their biggest mistake in WotLK. Ulduar(argued to be the best raid in wow) only lasted a couple months. Ended by ToC, the worst raid in wow.
They also introduced the first multiple difficulties with ToC, you had to clear the same raid on 10 and 25man every week resulting into fast burnouts.
The new Naxx was way too easy and cleared 2 days after release. ICC lasted more than a year, do people even remember the Ruby Sanctum?

Just because most people started playing in WotLK they praise that expansion, is it the dark emo theme that people dig? Hell even the Grizzly Hills was better than Icecrown.

Even tho I started playing in vanilla I still think TBC was much better. I can't really find any negatives about it.

1) hc badges give gear better than BT/mhj when sunwell patch was released, i had gear from the raids and i still need to do hcs because badge gear was that good, in fact u can not raid at all and just do hcs 24/7 and u'll get better gear than any non-sunwell raid (check that urself), including gems
2) Ulduar stayed relevant to end of wrath, ppl wanted to do achievements and enjoy raid itself and get the mount
3) most ppl in wow consider either Grizzly Hills or Howling Fjord best zones made in general, I don't know who actually think IC is better zone than Grizzly Hills

[PepeLePewPew]

I think your definition of casual is wrong if you think it was a hell of a time doing Arcatraz, Botanica and Mechanar. They were much shorter time wise than raids, only required 5 people.

Casual just means not much time to play, not horrible player. Like a casual job is a small amount of hours, doesn't mean you are a bad at it.

Also. You say you weren't required to skip anything - While true. What about Warlords of Dreanor? The exactly same scenario is happening, are many people doing Highmaul or BRF (other than LFR)? Nope. Because the gear is crap and the content is no longer the same feel or challenge so not many people cares about it. Most people in this game just do the latest stuff on LFR and stop.

The game and the playerbase were much less casual friendly during BC. You didn't have to be terrible at the game to have difficulty finding groups. Casual during BC meant non-raider as much as less time (because it took much more time dedication to raid), which designated you as not really needing the gear or being useful. That changed with Wrath. I don't think I even got to enter Alcatraz or Mechanar until Wrath. Just to note: HHoR was my favorite WoW dungeon of all (to HEAL even, yes when it was new).

As for skipping content, players were still doing Ulduar long after it was obsolete gear-wise. It was not difficult to find a group for that late in the expansion. Your perspective is one of a hardcore gear focused endgame player and that's fine. What I'm arguing is that you were accommodated (not perfectly) as well as non-raiders with entertainment to an extent in Wrath that hasn't existed in any other expansion.

[sam86]

And what heroic dungeons was a casual excluded from in TBC?

All unless u knew a tank, i wasn't casual myself (i started 'casual' u can say in Cata, aka not aim for end raiding, because for me i felt the game just not interesting anymore after we killed the LK) but ppl in TBC and even Wrath unless u know a tank, forget hcs outside of the rush hours from 3 to 12 pm, and TBC needed far massive hc farm than wrath to get gear

The player base was much less inclusive during TBC. If you were a casual not in a raiding guild it was difficult to find a group.

casual player and raiding guild don't mix in TBC, at best they were 'kara' raiding which everyone was doing and even pugging in mid time of that exp

[Daffan]

1) hc badges give gear better than BT/mhj when sunwell patch was released, i had gear from the raids and i still need to do hcs because badge gear was that good, in fact u can not raid at all and just do hcs 24/7 and u'll get better gear than any non-sunwell raid (check that urself), including gems
2) Ulduar stayed relevant to end of wrath, ppl wanted to do achievements and enjoy raid itself and get the mount

1) Heroics took time, were actually hard and had a small gate. Not to mention the badges only redeemed for certain quality, Zul'Aman i believe upped the quality of items (25 badges - 133 Ilvl wand, T5 was 141+), like Sunwell did. You could only do a heroic once per day due to lockout, not 24/7 IIRC. You couldn't get t5/t6 quality items from badges before Sunwell and MGT Heroic.

2) You could say that about any dungeon going back and roflstomping it.

All unless u knew a tank, i wasn't casual myself (i started 'casual' u can say in Cata, aka not aim for end raiding, because for me i felt the game just not interesting anymore after we killed the LK) but ppl in TBC and even Wrath unless u know a tank, forget hcs outside of the rush hours from 3 to 12 pm, and TBC needed far massive hc farm than wrath to get gear

casual player and raiding guild don't mix in TBC, at best they were 'kara' raiding which everyone was doing and even pugging in mid time of that exp

You have to be kidding me. I played a priest for the start of TBC and a Mage for the rest. You could easily make your own groups as well, why did you have to rely on SOMEONE else to make the groups?

What do you mean about Wrath needing a tank? There was LFD...

I agree with the last part, only because jumping 10 man to 25 man was a real big problem with raid size design - Something that flexible raid sizes fixes in today's WoW.

[Gadzooks]

And what heroic dungeons was a casual excluded from in TBC?

Please, take your time. I'm excited.

Casuals could raid just fine, the only big big problem was the 10 man Karazhan to 25 man SSC/TK/Gruuls jump. That was not good design, whereas Flexible fixes that problem now. I'd suggest adding in account wide attunements too for alt fanatics.

A Casual at the end of WOTLK had to skip Naxx, Ulduar, TOC because the ICC 5 mans gave better gear so they were obsolete. What the hell does dungeoned at what level they had time for mean? Everything was the same level or you were skipped to it.

You'd hit level 80, do ToC 5 mans and go into TOC Raids. Or, a bit later you'd do the ICC 5 mans and then skip right into ICC raiding. Bye bye previous content you either trivialize or don't get any reward from.

There was problem on both ends, but the previous model was fixable with flexible and other things.

You're forgetting or didn't experience the raid weeklies in Wrath - it was a pug experience and got you a taste of the raids and some gear. I don't remember if it included Ulduar or ICC, but it got a lot of people into Naxx who wouldn't have, otherwise.

You're also leaving out that there were a lot more guilds then, of every level, who were easier to find and get into to run the lower/older raid content. It was probably the best era to go onto a server not knowing anyone, and get into a guild that was getting *something* done, without having to apply, send in resumes, and whatever hoops the top end guilds made you do.

It always amuses me when people try to cram all 12 million players who were around in Wrath into tiny boxes of how they think it was played.

[Daffan]

You're forgetting or didn't experience the raid weeklies in Wrath - it was a pug experience and got you a taste of the raids and some gear. I don't remember if it included Ulduar or ICC, but it got a lot of people into Naxx who wouldn't have, otherwise.

You're also leaving out that there were a lot more guilds then, of every level, who were easier to find and get into to run the lower/older raid content. It was probably the best era to go onto a server not knowing anyone, and get into a guild that was getting *something* done, without having to apply, send in resumes, and whatever hoops the top end guilds made you do.

It always amuses me when people try to cram all 12 million players who were around in Wrath into tiny boxes of how they think it was played.

I wonder why there was a lot more guilds back then? Maybe it has something to do with guilds actually being more relevant. Because you couldn't just skip everything therefore removing the requirement for those "lower level" guilds.

[Velshin]

1) hc badges give gear better than BT/mhj when sunwell patch was released, i had gear from the raids and i still need to do hcs because badge gear was that good, in fact u can not raid at all and just do hcs 24/7 and u'll get better gear than any non-sunwell raid (check that urself), including gems
2) Ulduar stayed relevant to end of wrath, ppl wanted to do achievements and enjoy raid itself and get the mount
3) most ppl in wow consider either Grizzly Hills or Howling Fjord best zones made in general, I don't know who actually think IC is better zone than Grizzly Hills

Nope you are wrong sorry in fact badges gears and even the mighty hc MGT (one of my favorite 5 man dungeons in TBC specially the heroic difficulty pre nerf) was equal to tier 4 or 5 at most, which is lower than BT/Hyjal gears and Sunwell gears.

[Deleted]

From a pure raiding pov.

Naxx was a faceroll rehash (can you imagine the forum rage if T19 was BWL rehash?).

ToC was the worst raid in the history of WoW.

Ulduar is one of the best raids ever.

ICC was ok (lasted WAY to long).

So no WotLK was not a "masterpiece" far from it.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Good old Wrath. One reused tier, one shitty tier, and two decent tiers over 2 years. I'd rather have two decent tiers over 1 year, like WoD, instead of such content droughts that Wrath gave us. Oh and no real casual content to speak of, unless you consider daily heroics casual content. That good old grind of 2 badges per day.

[Aphrel]

I feel like everything in that expansion had it right. The soundtracks were spot on, game content, SPOT ON, final boss, SPOT ON. Everything seemed to mesh really well together in it, and I just haven't felt it with any other expansion so far. I'm not sure exactly what it was, maybe the lore? The dungeons? I'd really like to know. It cannot be that hard to replicate it's process into another expansion with similar aspects. MoP's soundtrack was alright at most, but WoD's and Cata's soundtracks just seemed to bland and didn't have any theme or feeling to them.

Thoughts?

SPOT ON?!?!?
You have got to be kidding me?
WHAT ABOUT AZIOL NERUB??!?! We coudlve had an underground zone but instead we get 2 shitty 5mans.

What about the first raidteir wich had a total of 2 new bosses. It was the lowest amount of new raidcontent released ever in any expanison.
And what about the raidteir that consisted of 1 room and cave below it with 1 cavern?
With raidteirs being plagued by rediculus LImited Attempts mechanics because... (To this day i still have no idea why that mechanic was implemented, did blizzard wanna become our nannies or something?)
And the final boss? You mean the guy that was locked behind gatings for weeks only to then be unkillable for weeks because his tuning was off the charts?

THE LORE?! You mean we get a to a continet supposedly controlled by the undead to find that it is infact not at all controlled by the undead (wich makes me wonder why they invaded 4 years earlier in vanilla if they hadnt even taken over more than 1 zone of 9 in northrend).
Or are we talking about the lich king who supposedly was so gimp that the scourge became a bigger problem without him?!??!?! "There must always be a gimpking"

SPOT ON?!?!?
WOTLK was an ok expansion but it couldve been so so so much better. At its time it was IMO the byfar weakest expansion. Miles behind tbc and even further behind vanilla.

[Deleted]

If this was remotely true, you'd find a majority of players who thought that MoP was worse than Cata. But you don't.

Because you do the mistake of equating the time of Cata with the time of MoP. MoP came years later, when the game was already old so there were fewer players to complain. Also I believe there is a "whining overdose" factor since the newbies of WotLK whined so much about the first expansion they ever saw (Cataclysm) that MoP got a better treatment.

[Seezer]

All the hate ToC gets is amusing. IMHO that is the perfect raid and a model for what raiding should look like if it were to reflect the actual Level of Interest people had in raiding.

Yeah! An entire raid in the same room is amazing! ToC got hate because it was the laziest piece of shit Blizz created to date. You like it to be edgy.

[Deleted]

I wish it was good. I did it in 10man heroic before the 25man world first. But it was crap aesthetically.

The main redeeming quality it had was that the boss design was very unique and each one differed.

And Anub's 'room' was ok, not great but bearable.

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah! An entire raid in the same room is amazing! ToC got hate because it was the laziest piece of shit Blizz created to date. You like it to be edgy.

Not at all. Instance had basically no trash. Boss fights were easy to understand and execute. Theme was neat had alot of flavor going on.

[Deficineiron]

How many heriloms u were using, or were u using a hunter/warlock? because a hunter can solo since vanilla, just in 10 days a single dungeon (and i did it myself just for challenge, and was boring)

i have never owned a boa/heirloom gear. As far as credibility, I posted comments as I was working this out on wowhead, and can link threads from 2009. Some of the pulls I had to work out weren't easy to figure out at that time/abilities. My posts were serious efforts to discuss what was and wasn't working in certain instances, or how I handled problems that initially stumped me. I will add (as my posts showed) that I expected to be unable to progress with this with the ret pally much earlier than I actually got stuck.

Here is the thread (almost a diary) of the ret paladin. http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=120658, i started this in the high 50's I think and started posting a bit after that. I know I was solo'ing some or all of BRD, but that was before the thread was posted.

a feral druid iirc http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=137844 iactually reading my last post on this thread, i got stuck on noxxion in orange and the SS'ing satyrs in purple, and eventually got into other wow interests.

[Deoxysprime]

I enjoyed WotLK. I constantly wonder what's different between now and then.

I see one key difference between the set of Vanilla, TBC, and WotLK and the set of Cataclysm, MoP, and WoD. That key difference is the value of the individual over the value of the group.

Group content was essentially group content in the first 3 expansions. You had to go out of your way to find a group in order to do dungeons or raids. Group quests were also only able to be soloed by particular classes with solid gear and a respectable understanding of their limitations. This meant that people needed to reach out to one another in order to complete content most of the time. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily.

These days, I find myself sitting around and picking my nose a whole lot less than I used to. I would wait for groups to fill. I would wait for friends to get online. I would wait for all sorts of things all while jumping the same familiar path around Stormwind or Orgrimmar. Now I'm always able to do something.

We can always do something. We are always divided. I feel the whole LFG/LFR mentality is a drain on the quality of relationships built over what was once a heavily social game. I used to feel that joining a guild was a necessity and not a perk. The game is getting more and more divisive. The value on the individual is increasing. I'm the hero. I'm the savior of the world. I'm going to be the protector of Azeroth. It's not a bad feeling. It makes you feel powerful.

You know what it is that causes me to play this game on and off? The lack of friends. I come when I have friends I can play with. I can't play without them. I run my own guild and I try very hard to keep my friends with me because I know if they leave that the game will become stale and boring. I'm not unhappy with crossrealm zones and LFG/LFR but I feel that those things only serve to weaken the sense of community that many servers and guilds once had. Of course the magic isn't gone for all people--it's gone for some people.

I enjoy WoW but I only enjoy it when my existing friends are enjoying it with me. I'm put less and less into the situation where I have to work together earnestly with people and thusly form long-standing relationships with them. The sense of community is waning and I can't say how to solve the problem. Immersion wanes as we struggle less together and realize more and more that these are just random people we can abandon and replace. I used to look up to players who would help me or perform well in dungeons. Now I realize that things are so fast and mindlessly easy that I'm the one ignoring people for help. It's a terrible mindset and I feel awful that I don't help these players that are new to the game enjoy it.

I'm becoming so damned selfish when I play this game. I'm inclusive only to my own groups because I don't need to be inclusive to anyone else. I haven't formed a quality relationship since the last time I searched for an arena partner.

At this point I'm aware that deleting LFG and LFR can only do damage. Removing crossrealm interactions can only do damage. I don't think the magic can return--those designs we look back on fondly are now archaic and would likely do significant damage.

The players have changed. I think it really has little to do with the content--barring content droughts.

[Daffan]

Problem with this is that you think casual is someone who is not raiding and only hardcore people raid mythic. I consider my self casual and I raid mythic.

Mythic by definition puts a lot of time in. I never said casual players are bad, just on average they play less time. Most casuals don't raid mythic.

[Aori]

I dunno about masterpiece but WotLK still had full functional talent trees. Despite the fallacy argument that everyone uses the same spec, that is what made it one of the best expansions. Character identity is a big freaking deal in MMOs. Current WoW doesn't have any of that, the gear options are the same because of the insane ilvl gaps, builds are all the same. There is only one path of progression, one way to build a character.

Every spec has only 1 build, the death of hybrids was one of the largest mistakes Blizzard ever made.