[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[callipygoustp]

Wrong. Zigzagging was useless in his situation as he was too far away from Ramsey for it to have any effect.

A lot of ridiculous comments made in this thread but this one is well above average in magnitude of ridiculousness.

[eschatological]

How is Rickon's beeline for safety NOT realistic?

He's a child that's never been in a situation like this before, hell he knew no conflict at all since realm's been at peace since before he was born.
He knows nothing of Ramsay's prowess with bow (neither does Jon for that matter).
His older brother, whom he always felt safe with, is running towards him, he's got the choice of either zigzagging or reaching Jon asap.
Add adrenaline into the mix, and top it off with Ramsay's feints, from his POV he has a good chance to reach Jon unharmed if he gives it his all to run.

Jon surviving volley after volley is unrealistic, Rickon's decision is not.

I don't think the beeline is necessarily unrealistic. Narratively, it can be easily attributed to his panic, his young age, etc. Likewise, him zig-zagging could have been explained away, narratively, as him being a Stark, growing up in a world where young boys regularly trained in swords, and young lords (like him) regularly trained in tactics. Maybe you argue he's been in captivity since he left Winterfell. Maybe you argue Osha has been training him on Skaagos for years. It doesn't matter. It's a 50-50 proposition, and my argument in this case is that as a son of Ned Stark I thought he'd have more sense, as they're a stoic House used to the harshness of life, especially since the children are depicted older in this series (Rickon starts around 8 or so, and would already be training in arms at that point).

Ramsay hitting him definitely is unrealistic though, even on a straight line. Jon not being hit by a volley from hundreds of archers is definitely unrealistic.

[Frontenac]

At her young age, Lyanna Mormont really masters the feminine art of "The Look"...

[Sooba]

Bollocks.

Zigzagging only works at short range. And there's nothing unpredictable about it. Once you went right you will have to go left next time and as soon as you start moving left a precise shot can be made.

This is patently false. Due to travel time it's harder to avoid an arrow in in short range (see Jon blocking it, not trying to dodge it.) At long range, there is lots of time to to be on the run and simply change direction when the arrow is loosed.

I think you're misunderstanding his meaning of zig-zagging. He doesn't mean to run about erratically. It's to keep your head on a swivel, and the moment he lets an arrow fly, adjust your path by a few degrees. It would make the shooter look foolish.

[Belial-sama]

I don't think the beeline is necessarily unrealistic. Narratively, it can be easily attributed to his panic, his young age, etc. Likewise, him zig-zagging could have been explained away, narratively, as him being a Stark, growing up in a world where young boys regularly trained in swords, and young lords (like him) regularly trained in tactics. Maybe you argue he's been in captivity since he left Winterfell. Maybe you argue Osha has been training him on Skaagos for years. It doesn't matter. It's a 50-50 proposition, and my argument in this case is that as a son of Ned Stark I thought he'd have more sense, as they're a stoic House used to the harshness of life, especially since the children are depicted older in this series (Rickon starts around 8 or so, and would already be training in arms at that point).

Ramsay hitting him definitely is unrealistic though, even on a straight line. Jon not being hit by a volley from hundreds of archers is definitely unrealistic.

My point was same as yours, he could've done either, but chose one of the options for reasons listed before. I could add a few reasons more, but the point is you have to see it from Rickon's perspective.

Him being a Stark doesn't really add any weight since it hasn't been established in either books or the show he received any training, from his family or Osha.
We can go into speculation on what happened during his stay with Osha, but that would be just that, speculation. And even if she did train him, how much does she know? She certainly can't instruct him in ways those south of the wall fight.
I understand the sentiment of wanting to see a Stark behave in line with what Starks do, but it's easy to see why Rickon doesn't (or rather, why he didn't).

[Sooba]

A lot of ridiculous comments made in this thread but this one is well above average in magnitude of ridiculousness.

Yeah, I'm not sure he thought it through.

[Elim Garak]

The amount of armchair zigzaggers and bow-masters in this thread is over 9000

[Jotaux]

The amount of armchair zigzaggers and bow-masters in this thread is over 9000

Didn't you do the same thing when you said:

Bollocks.

Zigzagging only works at short range. And there's nothing unpredictable about it. Once you went right you will have to go left next time and as soon as you start moving left a precise shot can be made.

[Elim Garak]

Didn't you do the same thing when you said:

Nope. what I said is the precise description of what happens when someone zigzags in the distance. Go play some online shooter to test it.

[Sooba]

The amount of armchair zigzaggers and bow-masters in this thread is over 9000

To be fair, it would even be instinctive, to be constantly glancing at the source of danger and attempting to live.

Lime had the right of Ramsay/Jon a few pages back. Rickon was dead either way. (Ignoring for plot reasons for a sec). But he was dead either way because Ramsay's whole point was to bait Jon out and then kill him with volleys. The issue I have isn't with that plan. Seems devious and cruel enough. Fits Ramsay to a T.

I think Jon's behaviour, while boneheaded, can also be explained.

But from Rickon's perspective, his behaviour is rather foolish. Having no way to know that the plan was to loose a volley upon Jon and simply looking to (instinctively) maximize his chance of survival, he was pretty darn dumb. The same effect could have been achieved with this scene to have had Jon reach Rickon alive, then volley trapping one and killing the other. Rather than having Rickon act just stupid enough, and Ramsay be just skilled/lucky enough, which strained credulity.

Mind you, a nice Greek phalanx in the Scottish-analogous North did the same. As did a plot that hinged on Sansa never communicating to Jon the strong possibility of overwhelming force. It reminds me of the way the entire Bat vs. Supes movie could have been solved (and would have been with the two men involved) with max 3 lines of dialogue.

[Jotaux]

Nope. what I said is the precise description of what happens when someone zigzags in the distance. Go play some online shooter to test it.

Sounds like armchair zigzagging to me.

[Elim Garak]

To be fair, it would even be instinctive, to be constantly glancing at the source of danger and attempting to live.

No it fucking would not. There's no zigzag instinct. It's an acquired skill that has to be trained. The instinct would be to run away. Hence the trope. Everyone thinks that movie characters are stupid, while in fact they are just being realistic. Yes, including the Prometheus.

[Deleted]

People still whine about this zigzagging shit?

How old was Rickon? Very young. He was scared. Wanted to go to Jon ASAP. I don't see the problem.

[Sooba]

No it fucking would not. There's no zigzag instinct. It's an acquired skill that has to be trained. The instinct would be to run away. Hence the trope. Everyone thinks that movie characters are stupid, while in fact they are just being realistic. Yes, including the Prometheus.

Strawman. You purposefully created a caricature of what I just said there, which is pretty damn sad. I didn't say there "a zigzag instinct." It most certainly IS instinctive to keep the source of danger in your vision. There would also be an instinct to not get hit by arrows. You don't have to be trained to not want to die.

[Elim Garak]

An "online shooter" has nothing to do with what actually happens when firing a bow at long distances. (Or any actual real projectile weapon, really. Even a high powered rifle has issues at appropriately long distances.)

Especially since most weapons in "online shooters" are actually hitscan in the first place.

It has everything to do with the effectiveness of zigzagging in relation to distance. the closer the target in shooters is - the harder to hit it if they are zigzagging all around you.

Bow vs hitscan is completely irrelevant to aiming. Obviously archer has to account for arrow flight, but that's normal and they are trained to do it.

[Jotaux]

It has everything to do with the effectiveness of zigzagging in relation to distance. the closer the target in shooters is - the harder to hit it if they are zigzagging all around you.

Bow vs hitscan is completely irrelevant to aiming. Obviously archer has to account for arrow flight, but that's normal and they are trained to do it.

If you have a gun and you are trying to shoot someone just running around, its insanely easier to hit them the closer they are to you.

[Sooba]

It has everything to do with the effectiveness of zigzagging in relation to distance. the closer the target in shooters is - the harder to hit it if they are zigzagging all around you.

Bow vs hitscan is completely irrelevant to aiming. Obviously archer has to account for arrow flight, but that's normal and they are trained to do it.

Once again you willfully choose to equivocate and try redefine what people mean by zigzagging, even though it has been explained to you multiple times. Once again, so you can't pretend you didn't see: People in this thread do not mean running in a crazy pattern all the time. (Which at long range would be harder to hit anyway. Counter to what you claim.) They are talking about keeping your head moving back and forth, from where you're going to the shooter and back again, and adjusting your trajectory by enough degrees so as to not be in such danger. At sufficiently long distance (which Rickon had reached) this would be rather easy. At short distance next to impossible. (The opposite of what you tried to claim before.)

[Elim Garak]

Strawman. You purposefully created a caricature of what I just said there, which is pretty damn sad. I didn't say there "a zigzag instinct." It most certainly IS instinctive to keep the source of danger in your vision. There would also be an instinct to not get hit by arrows. You don't have to be trained to not want to die.

No strawman. there's only one instinct involved - running away. All other instincts you are mentioning - do not exist. Except may be for looking back, which of course Rickon was doing quite well.

[Raetary]

At her young age, Lyanna Mormont really masters the feminine art of "The Look"...

lyanna is already badass.

[Sooba]

No strawman. there's only one instinct involved - running away. All other instincts you are mentioning - do not exist. Except may be for looking back, which of course Rickon was doing quite well.

Simply incorrect. They do. If you choose not to acknowledge that, thats your problem. But it does explain your issue.

Someone in danger will consistently be looking toward the source of their danger. Or in the case of generalized danger (like drowning, which has no real "point direction",) toward salvation. This is in training that I have received for multiple forms of first responder and emergency situations.

And to clarify before someone misunderstands. I am not saying that I was trained to do this, but was trained to know that those in danger do it instinctively.