Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Rehok]

This is a big one for me, I probably won't play if I have to do camera moving momentum stuff, I don't mind momentum if I can vault out and run back in but if I have to do all kinds of camera things constantly that's just not for me.

You will probably just need to do things like you see hunters do with disengage which is quickly turn your camera around press it and turn back (Depending on where you need to land)

[danik9579]

Thanks for the guide

[Texen]

Great guide, can you please explain the demon hunter opener?

[Yorgl]

1.6 FAQ

Should I roll Demon Hunter?

Yes. Also, order a salad from pizza hut.

Do I have to take <momentum / demon blades / other talent>

For optimal damage, yes. For most players the difference will be negligible, as momentum requires high maximum uptime to perform better than nemesis. Prepared is an option for Momentum builds over Demon Blades as well, though it may not be the absolute best. In short, if you're not in a top 100 guild.. pick what you want and what you can play. A Nemesis build will outperform a Momentum build for a player if they are not able to maintain correct Momentum uptime, which is an important consideration.

Awesome FAQ is awesome.

Hope people will keep that in mind : eating salad is so important.
... Oh yeah, and the "mandatory talents" part too. :3

[Vanyali]

Not a pretty guide, but it has all the relevant information, which is the important part. Good job!

Eventually.. headers might come. If I can think of any design that's not just mind-searing green

Van, put up the .gif too.

Done

I think you should write a section with guidelines for deviating from BiS. Legendaries and highly warforged gear create a lot of beyond-basic-bis states, and maybe it'll cut down on the 'should I wear x or y' threads. It would also be cool to have some more information about stat weights in non-patchwork situations -- what stats might I want for bursting down an add in 20 seconds with pooled resources? What stats might I want for frequent, short, important aoe -- ala Operator or Xul?

@Gear this is covered in the "Legendary" section for the most part; a legendary is noted to ALWAYS be BiS due to increased ilvl even if it's not the best for that situation. Warforged is also difficult, but I can note that a high warforged will also be BiS due to the increased agi.

The stat weights should mostly stay the same for AoE / burst. Crit doesn't devalue because you need to burst, nor does mastery get better. Same w/ versa and haste. The differences would be absolutely minor for burst vs. patchwork in 99% of the case (exception: perhaps anomaly, where Dblades feels painful during the "slow" time sometimes, but absolutely broken during the fast time. Would have to look more into it, but even then the stat change shouldn't be enough to warrant a different build)

Is the DPS difference between momentum and nemesis large? The momentum playstyle seem's intimidating.

This is a big one for me, I probably won't play if I have to do camera moving momentum stuff, I don't mind momentum if I can vault out and run back in but if I have to do all kinds of camera things constantly that's just not for me.

@ both of these - Nem is close on single target, and exceeds should you have poor momentum uptime. However.. I encourage you guys to try it before you make up your mind. Writing about it it seems super complex, and "oh god, I have to do all these weird things and this isn't how you've ever played WoW".. I had those very thoughts when I first picked it up. But when you play it it's a lot smoother than you'd expect through some dark magic.

Great guide, can you please explain the demon hunter opener?

I'll work on this :3

Awesome FAQ is awesome.

Hope people will keep that in mind : eating salad is so important.
... Oh yeah, and the "mandatory talents" part too. :3

If you don't eat Salad you can't be strong and green and Fel and the demons win *nod*

[Deleted]

Hey Van, Viridian here we played some during testing, I was wondering if you also have a BiS list for Emerald Nightmare gear thx

[AngryCoco]

KEWL I SUPPORT DIS. Also herro

[Vanyali]

Hey Van, Viridian here we played some during testing, I was wondering if you also have a BiS list for Emerald Nightmare gear thx

Not yet! Next in line. Forgot to pick that one up from @Sangomah too.

My brain went "TWO TIERS. ONE BIS LIST." for some reason, will be fixed.

[Deleted]

Not yet! Next in line. Forgot to pick that one up from @Sangomah too.

My brain went "TWO TIERS. ONE BIS LIST." for some reason, will be fixed.

Np haha can be tough work writing a big post like this Keep up the good work ^^

[Baelroc]

Van you are the proverbial shit. (And I mean that in the good way ofc).

[A dot Ham]

Some of the other "guides" I have seen suggest:

108: Demon Reborn
110: Demonic

Maximizing demon form up time.

None of these guides really do any of us any good if no one is willing to run sims and post numbers. The argument that keeps coming up is they are still tuning... I am not seeing significant changes with each update to beta. I think its safe to start running some sims there won't be too much difference between now and launch day.

[Vanyali]

Some of the other "guides" I have seen suggest:

108: Demon Reborn
110: Demonic

Maximizing demon form up time.

None of these guides really do any of us any good if no one is willing to run sims and post numbers. The argument that keeps coming up is they are still tuning... I am not seeing significant changes with each update to beta. I think its safe to start running some sims there won't be too much difference between now and launch day.

There are Sims linked in my post.

Demonic got shat on with the constant nerfs to annihilation + high damage of Fel barrage. It already couldn't compete ST with Cblades.

Demonic is a good survivability and PvP talent. For raiding, it won't do the same damage that FBarrage will.

[Shana Fenix]

Momentum build... the sheer thought of it makes me cringe. I don't want to be jumping and dashing all over the place when trying to deal damage. Guess I'll go with a nemesis build >.>
Are Fel Rush or First Blood a valid option in any build? Or Fel Eruption?
I really dislike having like... 2 buttons to press.

[A dot Ham]

There are Sims linked in my post.

Demonic got shat on with the constant nerfs to annihilation + high damage of Fel barrage. It already couldn't compete ST with Cblades.

Demonic is a good survivability and PvP talent. For raiding, it won't do the same damage that FBarrage will.

My eyes must have straight up ignored the links... seeing it now.

[Vanyali]

Momentum build... the sheer thought of it makes me cringe. I don't want to be jumping and dashing all over the place when trying to deal damage. Guess I'll go with a nemesis build >.>
Are Fel Rush or First Blood a valid option in any build? Or Fel Eruption?
I really dislike having like... 2 buttons to press.

Honestly, if you're a sub-100 mythic guild.. do what you want. It won't be optimal, of course, but I see little reason to raid something you absolutely hate unless you've no other option.

Felblade is a big loss from Bloodlet right now as well, but ultimately both add another button so they're tied in that area. FE is decent for PvP, or very short burst fights, but will fall behind Nem / Mom in longer fights.

My eyes must have straight up ignored the links... seeing it now.

It's okay, dinosaurs have tiny dinosaur eyes Poor rexes, tiny eyes and tiny arms.

[Faenlyn]

There are Sims linked in my post.

Demonic got shat on with the constant nerfs to annihilation + high damage of Fel barrage. It already couldn't compete ST with Cblades.

Demonic is a good survivability and PvP talent. For raiding, it won't do the same damage that FBarrage will.

If history is any guide looking back to DK and Monk release, I take all this pre general release "this is the best DPS talent based on sims" thing with a very very large grain of salt. Invariably learning from experience is we all get excited about the sims based on beta testing and then when the class gets released to the general player population and thousands of raid logs go up, we start to realize that the best players in the world are using builds completely different than predicted due to both sim calculation inaccuracies and actual raid encounters not matching up to simmed encounters.

So anyone getting too excited about this simmed "best" talents should really hold off until release of the class. I will go on record right here predicting that anyone who thinks that a momentum build that involves jumping all over the screen and somehow making full use of the buff while maintaining maximum uptime on the boss while negotiating raid mechanics is going to be very very disappointed to see their performance way way behind Nemesis and FE players who will stay in one place and only move for necessary fight mechanics.

Likewise I would hold off on any judgement on 110 talents until the raids are released.
TLDR: These pre release simmed best talent guides are almost always wrong based on DK and Monk experience. Choose the talents you enjoy the most and when raid logs come out, we are going to find out what the best performing talents are. They almost certainly will not be what is being predicted

[Vanyali]

If history is any guide looking back to DK and Monk release, I take all this pre general release "this is the best DPS talent based on sims" thing with a very very large grain of salt. Invariably learning from experience is we all get excited about the sims based on beta testing and then when the class gets released to the general player population and thousands of raid logs go up, we start to realize that the best players in the world are using builds completely different than predicted due to both sim calculation inaccuracies and actual raid encounters not matching up to simmed encounters.

So anyone getting too excited about this simmed "best" talents should really hold off until release of the class. I will go on record right here predicting that anyone who thinks that a momentum build that involves jumping all over the screen and somehow making full use of the buff while maintaining maximum uptime on the boss while negotiating raid mechanics is going to be very very disappointed to see their performance way way behind Nemesis and FE players who will stay in one place and only move for necessary fight mechanics.

Likewise I would hold off on any judgement on 110 talents until the raids are released.
TLDR: These pre release simmed best talent guides are almost always wrong based on DK and Monk experience. Choose the talents you enjoy the most and when raid logs come out, we are going to find out what the best performing talents are. They almost certainly will not be what is being predicted

You.. realize that we've been raid testing these, right?

Momentum isn't the big deal that people think it is during raids. There are seriously only two bosses where it's a problem, one of which is just an annoyance - Star Augar (mythic) makes it almost impossible to use momentum due to the star mechanic, and Krosus has the potential of flying off the edge should you fail at proper directions. Otherwise it's pretty lulzy, and doesn't matter at all because the mechanics aren't shitting down your throat provided you actually know the mechanics and don't just FR with both eyes shut.

Nem only wins single target, on a fight that is an odd number of minutes. For AoE, Momentum wins. FE doesn't ever win, except very short burst fights (<2 min), so MIGHT see a use on farm... maybe. Depending how cheesy things get.

This beta (and alpha) has seen a *lot* of raid testing, mythic included, and these sims are being done by one of the top ferals in the world as well, while being vetted in the discord with some quite good players (excluding myself in this one; i'm certainly nowhere near their league when it comes to theorycrafting, and probably not in practice either).

[Faenlyn]

You.. realize that we've been raid testing these, right?

Momentum isn't the big deal that people think it is during raids. There are seriously only two bosses where it's a problem, one of which is just an annoyance - Star Augar (mythic) makes it almost impossible to use momentum due to the star mechanic, and Krosus has the potential of flying off the edge should you fail at proper directions. Otherwise it's pretty lulzy, and doesn't matter at all because the mechanics aren't shitting down your throat provided you actually know the mechanics and don't just FR with both eyes shut.

Nem only wins single target, on a fight that is an odd number of minutes. For AoE, Momentum wins. FE doesn't ever win, except very short burst fights (<2 min), so MIGHT see a use on farm... maybe. Depending how cheesy things get.

This beta (and alpha) has seen a *lot* of raid testing, mythic included, and these sims are being done by one of the top ferals in the world as well, while being vetted in the discord with some quite good players (excluding myself in this one; i'm certainly nowhere near their league when it comes to theorycrafting, and probably not in practice either).

You think beta testing with maybe n=100 players is going to stand up to general release with millions of players using the talents? Even Blizz have previously commented that even with all the internal testing and number crunching they do, occasionally players end up findings uses of talents that differ from their internal predictions. This has worked out in both ways with occasionally the best talent builds not realized by the community although they admitted this was rare. And sometimes other talent combinations working better than calculated due to sheer ingenuity of millions of players. When even Blizzard can be surprised by how talents perform when released to millions of players, I doubt sims back up by testing of a few dozen players will be the definitive word

EDIT: If anyone doubts my pessimism about the sims go ahead and raid momentum. Go ahead and Vengeful retreat in a diagonal from front to back of the boss to stay in melee and then fel rush back forward and dodge the fire and interrupt that add. If you are top DPS doing that you will be a God on earth not a mortal player like the rest of us.

[Vanyali]

You think beta testing with maybe n=100 is going to stand up to general release with millions of players using the talents? Even Blizz have previously commented that even with all the internal testing and number crunching they do, occasionally players end up findings uses of talents that differ from their internal predictions. This has worked out in both ways with occasionally the best talent builds not realized by the community although they admitted this was rare. And sometimes other talent combinations working better than calculated due to sheer ingenuity of millions of players. When even Blizzard can be surprised by how talents perform when released to millions of players, I doubt sims back up by testing of a few dozen players will be the definitive word

Millions of players in this game are really bad, too

Either way, Nem vs. Mom is very simple to explain conceptually, even without sims:


Mom is targeted by the player. Nem is set on a target.

You can have Mom up for EVERY throw glaive, every fel barrage, every chaos blades, every burst period, every necessary period. It can be held back, it can be timed... but best of all, it is a BUFF. That means everything, every target, is +20%.

Nem has none of those. It is single target (so aoe means it has to die, and it has to be the same type.. not so common). It cannot be used for every burst period. It cannot be targetted for every throw glaive or fel barrage. It cannot be held, because it is a single charge and holding it will mean you go <50% uptime and lose damage.

Nem is fine on an odd-target single-target fight.. but how many pure ST fights are there in WoW? Now compare them to MT fights with burst periods. How many fights have adds that must be burst down quickly? How many have AoE in general, or are multi-target cleave?

if we were talking a game that built itself around ST fights, Nem would have a bigger place. But this is Warcraft, and we do AoE fights that mock set damage increases like Nem.

[Faenlyn]

Millions of players in this game are really bad, too

Either way, Nem vs. Mom is very simple to explain conceptually, even without sims:


Mom is targeted by the player. Nem is set on a target.

You can have Mom up for EVERY throw glaive, every fel barrage, every chaos blades, every burst period, every necessary period. It can be held back, it can be timed... but best of all, it is a BUFF. That means everything, every target, is +20%.

Nem has none of those. It is single target (so aoe means it has to die, and it has to be the same type.. not so common). It cannot be used for every burst period. It cannot be targetted for every throw glaive or fel barrage. It cannot be held, because it is a single charge and holding it will mean you go <50% uptime and lose damage.

Nem is fine on an odd-target single-target fight.. but how many pure ST fights are there in WoW? Now compare them to MT fights with burst periods. How many fights have adds that must be burst down quickly? How many have AoE in general, or are multi-target cleave?

if we were talking a game that built itself around ST fights, Nem would have a bigger place. But this is Warcraft, and we do AoE fights that mock set damage increases like Nem.

Yes its on demand and thats great. But its 4 seconds. And that 4 second window involves you jumping around the screen before needing to get back into proper position. Any loss of coordination or control. Any lag. Any slow button press. And mixup in priorities of what ability you should press in those 4 seconds (more realistically 2-3 seconds for the average player) and you've lost your window. Doing all that and doing boss mechanics correctly which most players struggle with already... Not going to happen