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  1. #81
    If I were a Republican operative planted in the DNC in order to get them to do stupid things that lose elections, I really can't think of much that would be more effective than encouraging the continued obsession with identity politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    The OP is especially weird as the GOP just got a major win off of identity politics and an economic message of "do the thing".
    Well, yeah, that's kind of the point - if the DNC spends a decade or so pushing identity politics, it shouldn't be surprising when that's the response from their opponents and it shouldn't surprise anyone that it turns out there are still more white voters than voters of color... or that married women don't much care about the identity politics messaging, on average.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    If I were a Republican operative planted in the DNC in order to get them to do stupid things that lose elections, I really can't think of much that would be more effective than encouraging the continued obsession with identity politics.
    The whole "identity politics cost the Democrat the election" thing seems more meme than sober analysis. For instance, we know Democrats performed very well in North Carolina on them.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    But there's ideological overlap between Republicans and Democrats as well, yet you say they're two different groups because they're mutually exclusive at the voting booth. So why is it different for other sets of parties with views that are arguably just as diverse?
    I agree there are many issues with complicated relations that cant be easily categorized. My point is that the phrase "the left" is a noun that can be understood in a precise way based on democratic choices. Ultimately each persons different reasoning has to converge down to a small number of choices on a ballot.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralgarog View Post
    Right now, "The Left" is being quiet out of fear of being labeled a sexist misogynistic racist Islamophobic transphobic white christian gamergater 4chan using antisemitic uncle tom log cabin republican. As a result the "Progressives" speak for "The Left" now. So yeah. This is a problem that "The Left" has to deal with in the same way "The Right" had to deal with the tea party.
    The funny thing is, i've never even heard of those arguments in my country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I would argue they are part of a general coalition. But I'd ask, to what extent do Anarcho-Communists not also fall into these problems of being too diffused by issues of identity ect?
    I have no idea, I dont think anarchism can work.

  5. #85
    I agree with them. Any politician should stay away from "identity" politics.

    "Identity" politics is, by definition, divisive.

    If you really want to be a leader, you should seek to bring people together.

    Obama dropped the ball on an opportunity of truly historic proportions.

    He was the first bi racial president. If he focused on bringing the races together instead of being so lazer beam focused on the Mid east, with his Arab spring and all- he could have really moved this country forward.

    Instead, the races are more divided than ever. Hillary took the divisiveness a step further. Making her campaign about women and calling the other side "deplorables."

    That's just not leadership. It's pandering and divisiveness. Who wants that?

    *Disclaimer* I know these forums believe that if you don't like the Dems- you must love Trump and the Pubs. So, before you start attacking Trump, I am an independent- I didn't vote for Trump. I find the Dems and Pubs equally devisive and repulsive.

  6. #86
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    If I were a Republican operative planted in the DNC in order to get them to do stupid things that lose elections, I really can't think of much that would be more effective than encouraging the continued obsession with identity politics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, yeah, that's kind of the point - if the DNC spends a decade or so pushing identity politics, it shouldn't be surprising when that's the response from their opponents and it shouldn't surprise anyone that it turns out there are still more white voters than voters of color... or that married women don't much care about the identity politics messaging, on average.
    In the case of Identity Politics, the problem of the Democrat approach was their assumption that White Americans would not form an identity group and someone wouldn't capitalize on it.

    The problem of Lefty identity politics is they forgot what the largest single quasi-ethnic group is. But even in terms of ethnic identity, Trump outperformed previous republicans among non-Whites.

    They relied on the racial animosity towards the cishet white male, and forgot the cishet white male votes, so does the cishet white woman, and they didn't even have their identity groups shored up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    The whole "identity politics cost the Democrat the election" thing seems more meme than sober analysis. For instance, we know Democrats performed very well in North Carolina on them.
    As you know, I think the main thing that cost the Democrats the election was fielding the most disliked candidate that they possibly could have. Just about everything else is window dressing.

    That said, I think a non-trivial amount of why that terrible candidate was picked is the excitement for the first female candidate. Likewise, a non-trivial amount of her terrible performance among white union workers (relative to the dominance Dems usually have there) was the identity politics of speeches like this.

  8. #88
    Kind of amazed that someone could live through 2016 and say that divisiveness loses elections.

  9. #89
    The left starting employing identity politics because it pays. The liberal elites are all super wealthy so they cater to those types who don't have a clue about the real world sitting in their ivory towers calling everyone else a racist.

    While a guy like Bernie Sanders caters to the working class who aren't wealthy and where identity politics fails. Of course the elites had to sabotage him at the cost of winning elections because making money is more important to them then winning elections apparently. Every poll showed Bernie doing better in the general. Oh and he was an old white guy who are the devil unless they're super wealthy and donate massive amounts of money to them.
    Last edited by matt4pack; 2016-12-31 at 10:16 PM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    He was the first bi racial president. If he focused on bringing the races together instead of being so lazer beam focused on the Mid east, with his Arab spring and all- he could have really moved this country forward.

    Instead, the races are more divided than ever. Hillary took the divisiveness a step further. Making her campaign about women and calling the other side "deplorables."
    When one side is explicitly seeking to disenfranchise the other, there's no "bringing together" to happen.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    As you know, I think the main thing that cost the Democrats the election was fielding the most disliked candidate that they possibly could have. Just about everything else is window dressing.

    That said, I think a non-trivial amount of why that terrible candidate was picked is the excitement for the first female candidate. Likewise, a non-trivial amount of her terrible performance among white union workers (relative to the dominance Dems usually have there) was the identity politics of speeches like this.
    My biggest problem with most of the post-election navel gazing is that it overlooks how close the election was. We get all these pronouncements of DOOOOOOOOM and the need for drastic change but it really came down to just a couple thousand votes in a couple very specific areas.

    When the election is that close you can't really say its any one thing, but for my money:
    1) Clinton campaign taking firewall states for granted and not campaigning there enough
    2) Poor DNC messaging (not platform)
    3) Comey letter turning late deciding voters hard for Trump
    4) Constant drip of mostly nonnews scandal from stolen emails being breathlessly reported on by the media.

    And to a more systemic extent: The DNC ignoring state level politics in favor of federal government.

    Some of these are Dems fault, some aren't, but none of them require significant platform changes. Either Ellison or Perez would be a great start towards addressing the ones that the Dems can address.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    My biggest problem with most of the post-election navel gazing is that it overlooks how close the election was. We get all these pronouncements of DOOOOOOOOM and the need for drastic change but it really came down to just a couple thousand votes in a couple very specific areas.

    When the election is that close you can't really say its any one thing, but for my money:
    1) Clinton campaign taking firewall states for granted and not campaigning there enough
    2) Poor DNC messaging (not platform)
    3) Comey letter turning late deciding voters hard for Trump
    4) Constant drip of mostly nonnews scandal from stolen emails being breathlessly reported on by the media.

    And to a more systemic extent: The DNC ignoring state level politics in favor of federal government.

    Some of these are Dems fault, some aren't, but none of them require significant platform changes.
    I agree with all of this. I might have slightly different ordering/evaluation of what drove the loss, but I think you're basically right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Either Ellison or Perez would be a great start towards addressing the ones that the Dems can address.
    Ellison's the worst possible pick I can think of.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Yes, but to then take categorization based solely on voting preference and treat it as the basis for talking about the left as some sort of monolith is virtually equivocation. One of these lefts is not like the other.
    Being in a group does not mean every group member are exact clones of one another in every way. I'm sure Theo and everyone else already knows that.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    I don't really see why that sort of speech should bother people. I don't think any of us expect either party to be a party of only one small narrow group of people, so it's only natural that they'll spend at least some of the time talking about issues that do not directly affect or interest you.
    It was so blatant that she was deflecting attention from the problem of TBTF banks with intersectional rhetoric.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I agree with all of this. I might have slightly different ordering/evaluation of what drove the loss, but I think you're basically right.

    Ellison's the worst possible pick I can think of.
    No particular order was meant to be implied. Why don't you like Ellison? Its the antiSemitism allegations?

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    In the case of Identity Politics, the problem of the Democrat approach was their assumption that White Americans would not form an identity group and someone wouldn't capitalize on it.

    The problem of Lefty identity politics is they forgot what the largest single quasi-ethnic group is. But even in terms of ethnic identity, Trump outperformed previous republicans among non-Whites.

    They relied on the racial animosity towards the cishet white male, and forgot the cishet white male votes, so does the cishet white woman, and they didn't even have their identity groups shored up.
    The other thing along these lines that I saw much hand-wringing and anger about was the reality that Trump won white women by 10 points. This margin was even larger among married white women. It turns out that white women don't tend to lump themselves into the category of oppressed people and aren't generally all that impressed with the message that not voting for Clinton made them gender traitors.

  17. #97
    I always giggle when people who are clearly "The left" argue there is no "The Left" hivemind.

    This group agree on basically every major issue - abortion, gun control, role of the state, economics, sexuality, identity politics, only to name a few on top of my head.

    Yet this very group does not want to be called "The left" or even admit to the existence of "The left".
    Last edited by bewbew; 2016-12-31 at 10:26 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    The other thing along these lines that I saw much hand-wringing and anger about was the reality that Trump won white women by 10 points. This margin was even larger among married white women. It turns out that white women don't tend to lump themselves into the category of oppressed people and aren't generally all that impressed with the message that not voting for Clinton made them gender traitors.
    Looooot of liberals were saying to never trust in gender identity over race identity. Minority feminists have spent decades lamenting how fickle white feminism can be.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    No particular order was meant to be implied. Why don't you like Ellison? Its the antiSemitism allegations?
    Pretty much all of this. His Islamophilia and involvement with black supremacist groups is a bit much for my tastes. The last thing the DNC needs is to go down that road.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Looooot of liberals were saying to never trust in gender identity over race identity. Minority feminists have spent decades lamenting how fickle white feminism can be.
    That they continue to see this through the prism of, "well, I always knew those white women were racist" isn't an endorsement of their analysis.

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