[PROT] Fix my Tanking!

[Sonnillon]

How many of you run with talents of 1-3-1-2-2-2-1? Our protadin says that the overall reduction from Knights Templar with Cavalier guarantees more survivability compared to the alternatives - says good on paper, not so good in practice for him with other choices. How wrong is he in the matter? Heroic raiding is the ceiling for him and us, killed 7/10 on HC, though Ticho just... kills him... which on top of people failing with other things wipes us eventually.

[Zic]

How many of you run with talents of 1-3-1-2-2-2-1? Our protadin says that the overall reduction from Knights Templar with Cavalier guarantees more survivability compared to the alternatives - says good on paper, not so good in practice for him with other choices. How wrong is he in the matter? Heroic raiding is the ceiling for him and us, killed 7/10 on HC, though Ticho just... kills him... which on top of people failing with other things wipes us eventually.

That seems like a really bonkers build. He should only really be using holy shield on augur and krosus. Crusader's Judgment doesn't really give enough of a benefit to use over the other two. First Avengers boosts your DPS, and your shields from bulwark of order. I use cavalier as my default slot when I dont need spellwarding, otherwise I use that. Hand of the Protector >>>> the other choices. The 90 tier is largely inconsequential, just like 45. And on 100, Seraphim is what I swear by, and is something most paladins should learn to use.

[Lemuel]

Hey guys,

I'm a filthy casual, currently 9/10 Normal NH. Will probably be 10/10 after next raid night as we got him to 30% last night and only had 3-4 pulls.

This is my first expansion raid tanking and I want to improve as much as possible in prep for heroic and 7.2

I run with another prot pally as the MT and generally find he puts out more dps, has better survivability and is generally a better tank than me, and I want to improve.

Any general tips would be appreciated.

Logs (i'm Stoane) - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CVnaA8HbWLq1Fk7z/

Thanks!

Lets take the Krosus fight for example:

Few things I have noticed while I briefly looked at both of your logs.

To start with, talent wise you should really lose knight templar. There is no need to spec this talent for this fight, or any NH fights for this matter. Should be using HoTP.

Need to work on better cooldown management. In the coarse of the fight (3:53) Neither of you used GotK at all in that fight, while its only normal theres no need to not make use of it. Both of you should have made better use of Eye of Tyre. You could have easily fit in 3 of them, he only used it twice and from what I see in your logs you did not use it at all. You did not use Argent defender at all in that fight and, that is going to hurt you significantly. I also noticed you did not make any use of any potions which is going to hurt your DPS significantly.

Looks like your stacks are getting bit high on searing brand, by looking at it your taking significantly more dmg, unfortunately I do not know how to check how many stacks you have. Idealy tank swaps should be made the moment the other tanks stacks fall off, it makes good practice.

Both of you are specced into Blessing of spellwarding and neither of you made any use of it, which is a waste. While its not needed, you are not utilizing your talents.You could have made more use out of LoTP/HoTP as well.I see that you did not flask either. If this is progression for your raid team, both tanks should be using Sta flasks. Thats what I saw quickly looking through your logs

[Kevinbeacon]

Hey guys... Hoping to get some help reviewing these Mythic Krosus logs. Our Prot Pally was having issues staying alive and I'm not sure how much of that is due to not being a bear or if we have some talent/rotation/etc issues going on here. There's a lot of attempts, but if you can look over a few, it'd be much appreciated.

Ugh, I can't post links yet and I would rather not go making garbage replies in other threads just so I can do that, so sorry this isn't clickable, but copy/paste should work.

warcraftlogs.com/reports/TbvL8yQW4xnqFa1d

[Kevinbeacon]

good advice

more good advice

Thank you both. One other question... On a lot of the attempts, I noticed he was top heals on himself and often by a wide margin. I felt like that was awful considering the damage he was taking, but should that be normal/expected with set bonus and talents? Especially if he and the other tank are handling things more correctly?

[Kevinbeacon]

Healing these days takes a lot of stuff into account (absorbs from his legendary trinket and from his other trinket, absorbs from bulwark and blessed hammer). He does have make frequent use of hand of the protector.
I play with hand of the protector, legendary helm and 4p and I usually am top heals on both myself and the other tank so . . . he isn't doing anything wrong

And yes if as cetraben said he is taking 7 stacks of the brand, he probably dips very low and hand of the protector is ridiculously strong in such conditions; healers can scarcely match it.

Thanks again! I'm glad he's making good use of HotP. I know the raid damage is insane, I was just worried the healers were neglecting him a bit much.

[Oathx]

Hey Guys,
Sort of a Prot paladin question - I am trying to use a weak aura to track SoTR stacks and alert me when I am sitting at 3 stacks for during those fights when I am off-tanking and it's a good thing to burn a stack so I don't sit pooled at 3. Sometimes during the fight I lose track of those stacks and so it'd be a nice QoL improvement to be able to be notified of this. I am using a weak aura (wago.io/4kXFVYFD-) that tells me my SoTR charges.. The only problem is that I'd like it to beep at me when I hit 3 stacks. I've tried playing with the SoTR charge 3 setting and under actions changing it to Play Sound on Loop every 2 seconds, however, it continually plays the sound on loop every 2 seconds whether I have 3 stacks or 2... Is there a better way of making this play the sound only when I hit 3 stacks on loop? I hope this is the correct place!

Thanks!

[the77boudreau]

Make a separate aura that is just audio activated at 3 stacks. Or a glow/audio aura activated at 3....either way make a separate one that runs along with your current ones should work.

[ehxy]

Hey guys, we're on KJ and I've got 7mill hp. KJ hits for 3.5 mil back to back for his big hit.

What the fuck do I do? This is with DR's up.

[Holovik]

Hey guys, we're on KJ and I've got 7mill hp. KJ hits for 3.5 mil back to back for his big hit.

What the fuck do I do? This is with DR's up.

Heroic or Normal? What do you mean "his big hit", felclaws? Assuming you mean Felclaws, you just have to layer your DR as the stacks increase. Use SOTR for the first 2 hits, before 3rd hit refresh SOTR and use something else like Tyr or AD. Use 3rd SOTR before last hit to make sure it doesn't fall off. Save Kings for if you get womped or need to soak arma.

Some tips (from other KJ related threads):
Darkmoon Deck: Immortality - Get this trinket for KJ, and pretty much in general. This is the single best full time mitigation trinket in the game.
Reliquary of the Damned - Great as an additional CD. Use before the 4th stack of felclaws and it will mitigate 4th and 5th hit and reduce the CD by 30 seconds because it was fully depleted.
Unbending Potions - Keep a stack of these. Use one entering felclaws if something isn't normal. ie, healer dead, DRs on CD for some reason.
External DR - Ask for an external CD if you aren't comfortable for some reason.
Legendary shoulders - The new prot shoulders reduce the CD on your artifact ability to 45 seconds. You will deal with Felclaws every 45 seconds. This allows you to have a constant 25% DR for every felclaws, on top of SOTR.

[ehxy]

Heroic or Normal? What do you mean "his big hit", felclaws? Assuming you mean Felclaws, you just have to layer your DR as the stacks increase. Use SOTR for the first 2 hits, before 3rd hit refresh SOTR and use something else like Tyr or AD. Use 3rd SOTR before last hit to make sure it doesn't fall off. Save Kings for if you get womped or need to soak arma.

Some tips (from other KJ related threads):
Darkmoon Deck: Immortality - Get this trinket for KJ, and pretty much in general. This is the single best full time mitigation trinket in the game.
Reliquary of the Damned - Great as an additional CD. Use before the 4th stack of felclaws and it will mitigate 4th and 5th hit and reduce the CD by 30 seconds because it was fully depleted.
Unbending Potions - Keep a stack of these. Use one entering felclaws if something isn't normal. ie, healer dead, DRs on CD for some reason.
External DR - Ask for an external CD if you aren't comfortable for some reason.
Legendary shoulders - The new prot shoulders reduce the CD on your artifact ability to 45 seconds. You will deal with Felclaws every 45 seconds. This allows you to have a constant 25% DR for every felclaws, on top of SOTR.

Reliquary I do not have but we're 4 bosses into mythic and if I'm having trouble now on heroic sometimes give or take when we get to mythic kj and I can't be in melee of the boss due to mechanics flying around and I can't put up my mitigation what do I do?

[Holovik]

Reliquary I do not have but we're 4 bosses into mythic and if I'm having trouble now on heroic sometimes give or take when we get to mythic kj and I can't be in melee of the boss due to mechanics flying around and I can't put up my mitigation what do I do?

I get the sense English isn't your primary language and I am having a hard time figuring out what your problem is. If you are taking heavy damage from KJ, he should be in melee so you can use SOTR. If you are still having issues, it's likely because something is going wrong. There should never be a situation where you take a felclaws without at least SOTR up. Keep in mind paladins are the weaker tanks for this fight. An equally geared DK, Bear, or Brew is going to be noticeably easier to heal.

As far as damage without the ability to use SOTR, that would only be the case if you are soaking armageddon in p2, at which point you can use AD, Kings, BOP, or an external. Though most raid comps will have enough immunes that tanks don't even need to soak armas.

Watch this video of a paladin POV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67GTVveSZTM
Some things to notice that he's doing:
1. Always has SOTR up for the entirety of Felclaws
2. After the second stack of claws he uses Eye of Tyr or AD to further reduce damage.
3. Frequently he will get barkskin or Hand of Sac as well.
4. He had some really lucky Heavy Hide procs right at the start of fel claws.

[ehxy]

I get the sense English isn't your primary language and I am having a hard time figuring out what your problem is. If you are taking heavy damage from KJ, he should be in melee so you can use SOTR. If you are still having issues, it's likely because something is going wrong. There should never be a situation where you take a felclaws without at least SOTR up. Keep in mind paladins are the weaker tanks for this fight. An equally geared DK, Bear, or Brew is going to be noticeably easier to heal.

As far as damage without the ability to use SOTR, that would only be the case if you are soaking armageddon in p2, at which point you can use AD, Kings, BOP, or an external. Though most raid comps will have enough immunes that tanks don't even need to soak armas.

Watch this video of a paladin POV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67GTVveSZTM
Some things to notice that he's doing:
1. Always has SOTR up for the entirety of Felclaws
2. After the second stack of claws he uses Eye of Tyr or AD to further reduce damage.
3. Frequently he will get barkskin or Hand of Sac as well.
4. He had some really lucky Heavy Hide procs right at the start of fel claws.

No I just didn't use punctuation but thanks for the get lucky advice. SOTR is already up I'm getting one/two shot with at LEAST 50% mitigation on and I'm not exactly undergeared considering I'm top 25 NA easily for ilvl.

[Holovik]

No I just didn't use punctuation but thanks for the get lucky advice. SOTR is already up I'm getting one/two shot with at LEAST 50% mitigation on and I'm not exactly undergeared considering I'm top 25 NA easily for ilvl.

My mistake then, you mentioned previously that you "can't be in melee of the boss due to mechanics flying around" so I assumed this was during intermission (the only period of time you wouldn't be able to hit the boss, excluding dark phase).

What do you mean when you say "big hit"

Can you link your armory and some logs? I just don't see how its possible for a "top 25 NA" pally to be getting 1 shot by H KJ with at least 50% DR active.

EDIT: Also, this isn't get "get lucky" advice. I just pointed out that the paladin in the video had really opportune heavy hide procs. That wouldn't make or break the fight. If you follow the steps above and your group is as competent as you're implying then you should not be getting 1 shot.

[Cede]

I've been wondering about set bonuses and ilvl. I've got 5 pieces of T20 and can't decide if using 4 of them for the bonus is worth it over higher ilvl pieces. Because my legelnary selection is shit I run the helm and the soul of the highlord, I also have the movement speed boots and chain which I swap my belt and helm sometimes.

For example I have an 800 T20 and an 835 haste/mastery chest. 35 ilvl upgrade on the chest is it more powerful than the 4 pc bonus? Similarly with the cloak T20 is 900 and I have a 920 haste/vers in my bag. Combined that is 55 ilvl vs 5% damage reduction and I can't figure out which way I should go, currently I am using the set bonus. I rarely get into HToS pugs but I do a lot of mythic+10 and above runs so I know it probably wont make a huge difference either way -- I was just wondering what the consensus is on how powerful T20 4pc is.

[Piocc]

Hi everyone,

I would like your help in fixing the mitigation of my co-tank. The feedback from our healers is that he requires much more healing than I do and the logs seem to confirm this.
This is an example of our last Avatar kill:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken
We take similar damage but once we remove our self-healing/mitigation from it there's a remarkable difference:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...en&options=130

Am I looking at this the wrong way? I play various tanks but a paladin is not one of them so my knowledge of the class is very limited sadly.

Here's another occasion that raised a red flag for me, last week I solo tanked sisters and he did the same this week, fight length is the same (4:07 vs 4:08)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...en&options=130
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...en&options=130
He took almost twice as much dmg, is it because these are fights that favor warriors, and paladins are in a worse place for them, or is there something he can improve with rotation/gear?

He mentioned his versatility being very low and that he's been unlucky with the gear, I'm sure that can contribute to it, maybe it's just a combination of little things that leads to a big difference.

Thanks!

Edit: Sorry, this is his armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...r/badmedicines
Edit2: Btw, I did ask his permission to post and ask for your help on his behalf

[Ballercaust]

Hi everyone,

I would like your help in fixing the mitigation of my co-tank. The feedback from our healers is that he requires much more healing than I do and the logs seem to confirm this.

I'm going to preface this by saying I'm not a currently raiding prot paladin, so some of my analysis may be inaccurate/opinion based.

Going over the logs that you linked there were a few things that stood out to me.

1. Hand of the Protector usage. On the fight that you linked he cast it 9 times, which would explain a lot of the issues your healers are having. There is no reason it should be that few casts on a 6 min fight, especially given that he is running Righteous Protector for his level 100 talent.

2. Defensive cooldown usage. He used ardent defender once, legendary trinket twice, and guardian/artifact trait were not used at all.

3. Consecration up time. It was at 60% in the log you provided. It doesn't seem like it would be that big of a deal, but your shield of the righteous and hand of the protector are buffed by being in your consecration. On top of that his legendary ring is 4% damage reduction while in consecration.

4. Talent choices (this is the part that you may want to take with a grain of salt). I'm not a huge fan of holy shield, blessed hammer's 12% damage reduction on the next melee attack is amazing, and on a boss the size of avatar each cast will hit him multiple times. For level 90 talents leave consecrated ground in mythic+ judgement of the light is better in every aspect on a boss fight.

In summary he should be using Hand of the Protector much more frequently, be more liberal with his cd usage, better consecration up time, and maybe try some new things with talents. I would also be curious to know what the traits on his relics are.

[Lorianus]

I'm going to preface this by saying I'm not a currently raiding prot paladin, so some of my analysis may be inaccurate/opinion based.

Going over the logs that you linked there were a few things that stood out to me.

1. Hand of the Protector usage. On the fight that you linked he cast it 9 times, which would explain a lot of the issues your healers are having. There is no reason it should be that few casts on a 6 min fight, especially given that he is running Righteous Protector for his level 100 talent.

2. Defensive cooldown usage. He used ardent defender once, legendary trinket twice, and guardian/artifact trait were not used at all.

3. Consecration up time. It was at 60% in the log you provided. It doesn't seem like it would be that big of a deal, but your shield of the righteous and hand of the protector are buffed by being in your consecration. On top of that his legendary ring is 4% damage reduction while in consecration.

4. Talent choices (this is the part that you may want to take with a grain of salt). I'm not a huge fan of holy shield, blessed hammer's 12% damage reduction on the next melee attack is amazing, and on a boss the size of avatar each cast will hit him multiple times. For level 90 talents leave consecrated ground in mythic+ judgement of the light is better in every aspect on a boss fight.

In summary he should be using Hand of the Protector much more frequently, be more liberal with his cd usage, better consecration up time, and maybe try some new things with talents. I would also be curious to know what the traits on his relics are.

Yeah but his logs are more of a our healers dont understand how different tanks work so we blame the paladin, can he improve yes he can, but he linked hc logs from a 935 warrior co tank, our warrior doesnt even need healing on half the bosses because of the dumb rage spend->healing legendary and bosses need somewhere between 2-5 seconds to chunk throug his IP shields, so ofcourse the paladin will need more healing.

Thats not even considering that warriors have no gaps in their active mitigation uptime, unlike paladins.

All in all his paladin will always take more damage/will need more healing no matter what he does.

[Ballercaust]

Yeah but his logs are more of a our healers dont understand how different tanks work so we blame the paladin, can he improve yes he can, but he linked hc logs from a 935 warrior co tank, our warrior doesnt even need healing on half the bosses because of the dumb rage spend->healing legendary and bosses need somewhere between 2-5 seconds to chunk throug his IP shields, so ofcourse the paladin will need more healing.

Thats not even considering that warriors have no gaps in their active mitigation uptime, unlike paladins.

All in all his paladin will always take more damage/will need more healing no matter what he does.

Yeah, that's a good point. Should have mentioned that along with my observations.

[Piocc]

Thank you both for your answers.

I'll pass along your remarks @Ballercaust but as I understand he's not doing anything flat out wrong but he simply needs some tweaking.

@Lorianus You're right, for warriors outgearing the encounter can lead to some OP numbers because of rage->heal and stronger IPs. Part of my concerns was also to find out if it's more a matter of different classes working (obviously) in a different way or actual mistakes. I didn't expect him to be doing big mistakes since he reads up on his class, but the numbers still baffled me.

You're saying then that it's pretty normal for him to take much more damage than a warrior at a similar ilevel because of how the 2 classes work/mitigate and their respective ability to outgear content (warriors being able to negate attacks completely as soon as their IP shields surpass the damage taken)?