Does Blizzard want to force us to change between main specs?

[Deleted]

Saying that you will be 5-10% weaker just because you like to might bring you some personal temporary joy, but ultimately you just weaken the potential of your team succeeding.

Mkay, let's turn this around then...

I've got a rogue. I know how to be an outlaw, but don't think for a second I'll have any luck playing the other two specs. I have no interest in them, and believe me, I've tried learning them, but they just don't work for me. There is no doubt in my mind that even if the other specs were 25% ahead of Outlaw in sims, I'd stick to Outlaw. Sure, I MIGHT end up doing more dps in the other specs just randomly mashing buttons, but that's more about luck than skill.

Now let's say all 3 rogue specs are within 5% of each other. Let's say Sub wins, Ass at -2% and Outlaw -5%. Which spec, given the above information, do you think I, me personally, would do the most damage in?


I'll help. The answer is what used to be called Combat. Because that is what I'm good at. Playing ANYTHING ELSE would actually "weaken the potential of my team succeeding", to use your own words. It doesn't matter if Sub is better in sims, if I, the player, cannot play like the sims says I should. And because of that, Blizzard cannot force me to pick a spec. They can buff or nerf all they like, but I will always perform better in a spec I CAN play than in a spec that just sims the highest.

[BadguyNotBadGuy]

Really? So please tell me how unholy uses more abilities than frost.

Unholy:
- Outbreak
- Dark transformation
- Festering strike
- Soul reaper
- Apocalypse
- Scourge strike
- Death coil

= 7 abilities

Frost:

- Howling blast
- Remorseless winter
- Obliterate
- BoS
- SF
- FS
- Pillar of frost
- HRW

= 8 abilties

But please, tell me again how unholy is a 10 ability "hard to play" spec while frost is a 3 ability "easy to play" spec so you can justify getting crushed by frost dk's "bcz dey 2ez 2play 3ability spec".

Herpie man, please stop, youre embarassing yourself. I play BoS build, and our actual rotation after popping CDs (which dont count towards the rotation btw) is;
- Remorseless every 20 seconds
- Oblit/Howling
- You pop Sindra Fury after a few seconds to let your Razor stacks get to 5.
- Oblit/Howling
- You pop HRW once you see you cant sustain BoS any more.
- Oblit/Howling
and
- Oblit/Howling/FS once BoS ends.

Pillar, BoS, Sindra Fury, HRW do not count towards a "rotation", so overall we play with 3 buttons more or less.

Unholy uses 4 buttons more or less if we discount the CDs (which includes SR), however they need be attentive regarding their Wound amount, and adjust Rune spending accordingly. This gets harder if you have the Bracers lego.
And no matter what you say to respond to this, looking after this extra "resource" does make UH noticeably more intricate than frost.

Pet micro is basically non-existent, though sometimes you would like to move him out of certain AOEs.

[Radianshot]

Shaman Timeline
Resto Shamans: Still here
Enhance Shamans: Many many many > Few > a rarity
Elemental Shamans: What elemental shaman are u talking about? > A couple here and there

[Allenseiei]

The problem comes when there is a big difference between the specs. If, for example, Fury Warrior was 2% behind Arms and now is 2% ahead of Arms, that would be ok. The players who want to minmax would switch around, and if someone just likes one spec and prefers to stick to it, there wouldn't be much of a problem.

However, the differences are not that small, and there isn't enough tuning being done to bring them closer.

People seem to fail to understand that it's not about tuning, it's class and encounter design.


They will never be close. Each patch a spec is always better. It has always been, will always be. Keeps an expansion dinamic.
If you want to min max, you will never play the same spec because specs have different pro's and con's. They are supposed to have them. You choose a spec because of the meta of the patch, which blizzard already makes sure it changes. Much of the data taken to form conclusions that spec X is better than Y, is taken in the conditions of that specific content.
Say for example spec X is better in big bursts of AOE damage, and the content provides them, while spec Y isn't good in those bursts. Spec X will always have better results than Y. Is X > Y? Only in that scenario. However if spec Y is better than X at pure single target and there are fights that are only single target. Is Y > X? Only in those scenarios.
The rest of the data is taken from void simlations like simcraft, but they fail to put situations into practical context. So if spec X is good in scenarios that simcraft can't simulate, and its balanced around those scenarios, that spec will fall short in simcraft simulations.
If you don't want to min max? Who cares what spec you play? You are underperfoming anyway.


So the question is: Do you want specs to have a static design and do what every other spec does so it doesn't matter which spec you play? I at least do not.

[stevan021]

He means that Frost is doing more DPS than Unholy despite being the easier spec to play. I agree, if you put in more effort you should do more DPS.

Let's make survival hunter do 50% more dps than any other spec?

[Deleted]

If you look at how the specs perform throughout Legion so far, you can see that there isn't a single class where the differences between specs were at least somewhat consistent. The problem is not that one spec is performing slightly better after changes, it is that it performs way better:

Mage: Fire was god at start, but now it's horrible, so mages are pretty much forced to change to frost.

Hunter: MM was the go-to, now it looks like BM is stronger.


Warrior: Arms at start, Fury now.

Death Knight: Unholy then Frost.

Warlock: Demo/Destro at start, Affliction now, and it seems like it will go back to Destro if nothing changes until 7.2.5 launch.

Rogue: I am not 100% sure about rogues, but I think at start Outlaw was the best, and now it's Assassination.

It's needless to say that someone should play what they want and like, but it's normal for someone to want and like to perform the best they can. So if someone wants to do that, they will have to switch specs, no matter their preference.

What are your thoughts?

I totally agree. I play priest. In shadow mode I can do 600/700k dps in Holy I can only do 200/300 dps. Pisses me right off!! Same thing when I try and heal in shadow, no way near as much as Holy. What are blizz thinking!!!! How dare different specs do different things and have different numbers.

[Deleted]

I totally agree. I play priest. In shadow mode I can do 600/700k dps in Holy I can only do 200/300 dps. Pisses me right off!! Same thing when I try and heal in shadow, no way near as much as Holy. What are blizz thinking!!!! How dare different specs do different things and have different numbers.

From my point of wiev 300K dps healer is to much. you should do like 100K max

[gushDH]

I totally agree. I play priest. In shadow mode I can do 600/700k dps in Holy I can only do 200/300 dps. Pisses me right off!! Same thing when I try and heal in shadow, no way near as much as Holy. What are blizz thinking!!!! How dare different specs do different things and have different numbers.

I compared dps specs only. Why do you have the need to troll?

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People seem to fail to understand that it's not about tuning, it's class and encounter design.


Because they will never be. Each patch a spec is always better. It has always been, will always be. Keeps an expansion dinamic.
If you want to min max, you will never play the same spec because specs have different pro's and con's. They are supposed to have them. You choose a spec because of the meta of the patch, which blizzard already makes sure it changes. Many of the data taken to form conclusions that spec X is better than Y, is taken in the conditions of that specific content.
Say for example spec X is better in big bursts of AOE damage, and the content provides them, while spec Y isn't good in those bursts. Spec X will always have better results than Y. Is X > Y? Only in that scenario.
The rest of the data is taken from void simlations like simcraft, but they fail to put situations into practical context. So if spec X is good in scenarios that simcraft can't simulate, and its balanced around those scenarios, that spec will fall short in simcraft simulations.
If you don't want to min max? Who cares what spec you play? You are underperfoming anyway.

Thanks for the only reasonal reply in this thread. I agree with you, good explanation

[potis]

Literally all of this is so fucking pointless. In the 10+ years I have been playing this game, I have never played a spec that I would come close to describing as 'hard'. Some have a more of a focus on efficient cooldown usage, some promote choice based gameplay through overlapping procs, some have a focus on planning and resource pooling/management, some are mobile and require strong execution, some are more immobile and reward good positioning.

The common thread through all of this? I have enough fingers to press all of the buttons for every single one of them, and they all ultimately boil down to learning that when X happens, you should do Y.

That's. Fucking. It.

The best players in this game have plenty of time to practice, and good muscle memory. Keep thinking that it takes real skill to play your class if it makes you feel good though.

There are no hard specs, there are just harder specs than others and its kinda silly when the harder specs that basically require "better management" instead of mindless button mashing perform worst just because, thats all there is to it, as example Frost over Unholy.

Or Beast Mastery as example is as braindead a spec can get.

You press Multishot and your pet passively does 1mil cleave.

WW monk is the same, LUL CLEAVE.

Compared to as example Affliction with their seeds or Fury Warrior with their retarded cleave WASTE ON GCD ON PATHETIC WW TO DO PATHETIC CLEAVE WITH RAMPAGE so on.

Some specs are just so braindead its insulting.

And when those specs suddenly perform much better than the -harder- to play spec of the same class, its simply wrong.

I consider unacceptable BM hunter to outdps MM hunters in Single Target.

I consider Frost unacceptable to outdps unholy at any point in the game at their certain form.

I consider unacceptable a moonkin to outdps a feral at ST.

I consider unacceptable a WW monk to outdps an Arms warrior at ST (Example, they nerfed them hard at EN) when their abilities do insane cleave also without sacrificing ST.

[Mirishka]

nah i see what he means. if you dont enjoy something, you wont put as much effort and passion into what you do, which always lessens the overall quality of whatever you are doing

Exactly. Even when MM was the FOTM spec for hunters, I played better as BM because I spent so much time optimizing keybinds, creating macros, etc.

[Ticj]

The problem comes when there is a big difference between the specs. If, for example, Fury Warrior was 2% behind Arms and now is 2% ahead of Arms, that would be ok. The players who want to minmax would switch around, and if someone just likes one spec and prefers to stick to it, there wouldn't be much of a problem.

However, the differences are not that small, and there isn't enough tuning being done to bring them closer.

I completely agree. Right now if I want to be able to get past the DPS check on my guild's Mythic Krosus, I have to switch to frost from fire. The fact that in order to remain somewhat viable, people need to pray to the RNG gods for a couple of pieces of gear is fucking annoying too. (I haven't gotten either pieces so I'm shit out of luck)


The fact that when I switch to frost from fire, a spec I have no legendaries and I have BARELY filled out my artifact, and I"m already pulling an extra 200k DPS is just fucking retarded lol

[Deleted]

Yep because mastering 3-5 button rotation is so hard....

Show me your rank 1 logs bro

[Lightbull]

Really? So please tell me how unholy uses more abilities than frost.

Unholy:
- Outbreak
- Dark transformation
- Festering strike
- Soul reaper
- Apocalypse
- Scourge strike
- Death coil

= 7 abilities

Frost:

- Howling blast
- Remorseless winter
- Obliterate
- BoS
- SF
- FS
- Pillar of frost
- HRW

= 8 abilties

But please, tell me again how unholy is a 10 ability "hard to play" spec while frost is a 3 ability "easy to play" spec so you can justify getting crushed by frost dk's "bcz dey 2ez 2play 3ability spec".

Ability count doesn't mean shit. I said Unholy takes more effort than Frost.

Not only does Unholy have to manage runes, they have to manage Festering Wounds, pooling for Dark Transformation, Summon Gargoyle, etc etc.

With Frost you literally just dump Obliterates whenever available, Frost Strike to avoid capping, Howling Blast whenever Rime procs, and Empowered Rune Weapon when you run out of resources. I might have missed a couple things but that's basically Frost ST rotation.

Also you missed some important cooldowns in that list of yours. If you're gonna be a cunt at least get your facts straight.

[Deleted]

Show me your rank 1 logs bro

Yea because getting rank 1 is about mastering the rotation and not about LUL RNG, Legandaries, AP level, whoring on wrong targets, having the entire raid cater to you by prolonging/shortening phases.

The shit some people say in this forum is honestly beyond ignorant.

[Sencha]

That's why they should do the f*cking balancing BEFORE release!

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There are no hard specs, there are just harder specs than others and its kinda silly when the harder specs that basically require "better management" instead of mindless button mashing perform worst just because, thats all there is to it, as example Frost over Unholy.

Or Beast Mastery as example is as braindead a spec can get.

You press Multishot and your pet passively does 1mil cleave.

WW monk is the same, LUL CLEAVE.

Compared to as example Affliction with their seeds or Fury Warrior with their retarded cleave WASTE ON GCD ON PATHETIC WW TO DO PATHETIC CLEAVE WITH RAMPAGE so on.

Some specs are just so braindead its insulting.

And when those specs suddenly perform much better than the -harder- to play spec of the same class, its simply wrong.

I consider unacceptable BM hunter to outdps MM hunters in Single Target.

I consider Frost unacceptable to outdps unholy at any point in the game at their certain form.

I consider unacceptable a moonkin to outdps a feral at ST.

I consider unacceptable a WW monk to outdps an Arms warrior at ST (Example, they nerfed them hard at EN) when their abilities do insane cleave also without sacrificing ST.

Fully agree with you.

[Aggrophobic]

My thoughts are, play what you enjoy. you will always do less DPS in a spec you don't enjoy.

The AP system made sure that you can't play whatever you want.
You can play one spec or be left behind.

[ssviolett]

What are your thoughts?

To answer to your question, OP, yes, and it has always been so - every expansion, and even almost every patch.
Problem is for the first time Blizzard made this respec incredibly difficult due to AP and legendaries. This is complete failure. They probably want us to stick to this game forever.
The solution is simple though, it was said zillion times - 1) make AP apply to all your artifacts at once, 2) make all legendaries support only - like Prydaz\Sephuz\Mage or DH chest. Btw, the addition of the 3rd stat was nice - so you really feel an upgrade after looting a legendary - just make all legendaries like this - with 3 secondary stats but without any abilities, so the respec wouldnt be a problem at all.

[Deleted]

Yea because getting rank 1 is about mastering the rotation and not about LUL RNG, Legandaries, AP level, whoring on wrong targets, having the entire raid cater to you by prolonging/shortening phases.

The shit some people say in this forum is honestly beyond ignorant.

Indeed. But hey he probably never even breaks top 200 so he has no idea what he's talkin about.

[Deleted]

What are your thoughts?

You misunderstand. They want us to play whatever class fantasy we like the most. How the specs perform does not matter all all - unless and only unless - you do mythic progression raiding (less than 5% of the playerbase, so you probably don't fall into that category). In that case you want to play the spec that performs the best numerically at the point of raid release. And in that case your spec/class probably changes a lot together with hotfixes/patches.

But normally - Blizzard wants you to pick the class/spec you like the best. And how it performs numerically doesn't matter at all.

[Super Kami Dende]

Yep because mastering 3-5 button rotation is so hard....

Nothing to do with difficulty. Its a matter of enjoyment. I can heal easily but I hate healing so I put in less effort.

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The AP system made sure that you can't play whatever you want.
You can play one spec or be left behind.

I can sure play whatever I want and have never felt left behind. Unless you are a cutting edge Mythic raider it means nothing.