Give LFR it's own loot lockout - the solution for all sides

[Jtbrig7390]

It will never happen, in fact, exactly the opposite happened a few times (incentivizing LFR for real raiders), simply because Blizzard relies on them to carry the LFR crowd.

No blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry the LFR crowd, That is why LFR is tuned the way it is.

Also your small percent of runs doesn't account for all. I have been in many that didn't have Heroic+ raiders and guess what...we finished it.

If raiders above LFR stopped going in there it would still be completed just fine and if it didn't blizzard would tune it so it would be.

[Jtbrig7390]

Weekly clearing LFR for years is no small feat. I have enough data to reliably say you people get carried, and get carried HARD. I can prove it with logs too if you want, we can pick log after log and I'll go through the deaths of LFR-only guys and their incredibly low performance, AFK-ing and so on. I.E. - they get carried.

So you got logs for every single LFR that has gone on since release? All you are wanting to do is stroke your ego, FACTUALLY blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry LFR. That is why once again its tuned the way it is.

Also don't assume I am just a LFR Raider, I have done both NM and Heroic (besides NH don't care to do heroic NH) in Legion and even in expansion's before. If you carry LFR so hard why not just solo it since it seems by ur comments everyone is useless.

You are not special because you raid above LFR and you are not carrying anyone. Also once again there is MANY LFR's that get done without NM+ raiders and they are finished.

[tacticalxxpanda]

No. Just ... no. This argument makes no sense unless you're extraordinarily inefficient at finding gold in the game. If you don't want to run LFR, a LFR run is NOT the most time-efficient way to earn the rune, especially as the value you're quoting is a bit higher than the actual average price for those items, at least in NA. Even runes and AP combined make for a tepid case for raid leaders forcing heroic/mythic raiders to do this content.

Requiring a rune is fine. Requiring a reasonable level of AP is fine. Dictating how people obtain those is not fine.

Again, the problem is not LFR. The problem is raid leaders miscalculating the impact of those, as well as having poor management skills.

Read the rest of my post. Runes is not the only reason to do LFR, LFR as it currently stands is very efficient as a whole and runes are a big part of that, especially if you're a healer/tank. No ones raid lead is forcing them to do LFR, it just makes sense to do it. And I wish I was exaggerating with rune prices, on Hyjal-US they do cost 450-550 fluctuating. They're on the higher end right now because theres 4 guilds on mythic Gul'Dan (including mine), and if you arent using runes for him then what are they even in the game for? They are very impactful when the entire raid is using one.

[MonsieuRoberts]

Your obligation to run LFR is exactly in line with how much effort you feel you need to put into your character to progress as far as you desire to, as easy as you would like to try and make things. Don't be upset with the system allowing you a sliver of a chance at improving your character. Just don't do it if you don't want to.

The problem can be solved with your solution, yeah, but the cause of the problem (if you want to call being as good as you can possibly be a problem) comes from the players. Not the devs. That's what I think, at least.

Please understand that I'm not talking about the frustration of RNG or the repetitive nature of running the same instance on multiple difficulties weekly, I'm talking directly to the control and the opportunities you as a player have on your ability to improve your character. Sometimes tons of control is good, other times it's bad. Things like RNG add to one side or the other, and player expectation and perceived "requirements" also tilt that balance left or right.

Just do what makes you happy.

[Super Kami Dende]

I disagree. Since if you are ACTUALLY a top end raider, by the Time LFR time gating passes your gear Ilvl should already be far past the LFR equivalent.

These complaints about LFR being mandatory for Raiders only tends to come from people who aren't actually good raiders and are like people stuck 5/11 Heroic that think they are super leet and can't stand the thought of other people having gear.

[Taus]

Read the rest of my post.

I read the entire thing. Still, these arguments are full of cognitive dissonance.

Let me put it this way. I'll even weigh the arguments against LFR being on its own lockout very liberally and more reasonably than the arguments I'm actually seeing, just to be overly fair about.

Hardcore raiders are saying it's a chore to run LFR because it's the most efficient way to obtain the combo of AP/runes. Both of these things are obtainable by other means, but the arguments state that LFR runs are the most efficient way to obtain them, and they're de facto required even if not an explicit requirement from a raid leader.

So let's say those folks get what they want, and so these raiders are not going to "have to" do these runs anymore. What then? You're saying the other paths are much less efficient. The next logical step then if you don't have LFR is the less efficient methods you already have now. Then they'll be grinding those and arguing that they should be somehow removed as well.

This kind of thinking is what made me get out of progression raiding. If you're truly that pro, at the end of the day when you down the boss, it's going to be 95% player skill and dedication and 5% return on efforts being put in the rest of the grind. Of course these things help. I'm not saying they don't. What I'm saying is true progression raiders, while they can be a lot of bluster and confidence on forums and such, sell themselves short by playing for hours and hours for the chance at a drop with 10 ilvls or such over what they can get fairly easily through what they're doing, or farming a rune instead of spending 5 - 10 minutes to get 400 gold and buying it, or not varying their AP grind. Plus, if they're that burned out from doing all of those things, their raid performance is going to suffer, which in the very best case nullifies the few extra ilvls and the rune.

So again, to summarize: the arguments I'm seeing for removing LFR as part of the power progression path is that it's the most efficient power progression path and therefore they are compelled to do it. If it's removed they'll be compelled to do something that's less efficient. It's a nonsensical argument.

[zaino]

most higher end raiders dont give a shit about lfr

[shrunken]

LFR is for people whittling down their bad luck protection & collecting a small amount of AP. What does this idea solve, besides nothing?

[corebit]

The reason that high end raiders dislike it is primarily two-fold (there are arguments for a third, but I will deal with two) in that: 1) they are strongly incentived to participate in it and 2) it diminishes the sentimental value of getting the kill on whatever difficulty you aspire to complete when Johnny No-Hands and Kelly Keyboard-Turner's blind cats can kill it while maintaining around 8% of optimal DPS/HPS/tankingpersecond.

You can speak for yourself but you don't speak for other high-end raiders. The Mythic raiders I know and run with don't give two shits about LFR, and I certainly don't care that someone extremely lucky got a 900+ WF/TF gear through LFR.

Please don't try to insinuate your own personal beef with LFR somehow translates into "the raider community dislikes LFR"

[Snuffleupagus]

So you got logs for every single LFR that has gone on since release? All you are wanting to do is stroke your ego, FACTUALLY blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry LFR. That is why once again its tuned the way it is.

Incredible how poor your memory is.

LFR Archimonde was practically unkillable by LFR the first week it was out. It required people to follow the mechanic of stacking on a tank to be ported to the twisting nether in order to kill the add. Otherwise the boss would heal.

Blizzard had to hotfix the encounter to automatically port people down due to the fuckery that was LFR.

And what people don't get is that by continuously nerfing the content, it means that people will get bored and not bother.

LFR Ursoc is solo tankable. Always has been. That's incredibly shit for tanks, because most LFR fights are like that - boring as hell.

[Destriel]

If you do heroic content, LFR is pointless to do except for runes/gold/AP ... I don't understand the QQ about the gear, it makes no sense to punish LFR primary raiders to venture into Normal for no purpose?... That's just simply moronic. Don't want to burn out? Don't do it. Simple, quick, to the point. Don't whine for your own obsessions and go speaking for other people.

[nekobaka]

If you do heroic content, LFR is pointless to do except for runes/gold/AP ... I don't understand the QQ about the gear, it makes no sense to punish LFR primary raiders to venture into Normal for no purpose?... That's just simply moronic. Don't want to burn out? Don't do it. Simple, quick, to the point. Don't whine for your own obsessions and go speaking for other people.

I do mythic+ as my end game and while tier gear would be nice to have, it is not necessary for mythic+ dungeons. I am glad as a non-raider for the game not being LFR or die again.

[Deleted]

Most are. Few carry. Nothing to do with ego. Everything to do with numbers. Good thing we have warcraftlogs so people can actually see for themselves, although I guarantee you every actual raider that does LFR often knows exactly what I am saying and has no need to see the guys doing below 200K DPS and staying still in Arcanetic Rings, dying to first Gul'dan add, Mark of Frost on Aluriel, Fel Nova on Augur and so on.

Look, I have nothing against these players. I have raiders I've recruited from LFR and they've grown up nicely into great performing players. I would give anyone that shows enough dedication and will a chance.

However, what I do have against is that LFR has any rewards for me and my kind. I don't want to go in, don't want to help, don't want to lose even a minute there. I want to choose who I play with. This is why LFR was awesome in WoD

Then don't do it. The end. If you're so nolife that you can't help yourself from doing content you don't want to, if you consider WoW work instead of a game, then you need to have a good long look at your own life to understand where you went wrong to end up in the shitty place you're currently in.

[Destriel]

I do mythic+ as my end game and while tier gear would be nice to have, it is not necessary for mythic+ dungeons. I am glad as a non-raider for the game not being LFR or die again.

I agree with you, it is a good substitute that is rewarding as well as challenging that you can do around your own schedule. It's a wonderful addition to the game.

[Xargoth6634]

Yeah let's limit things because crybaby OCD fucktards can't practice any self-control.

[potis]

snip

You are wasting your breath.

The thing with LFR heroes is they dont understand the term "Math" "Time" etc.

The similar posters posting the same defending crap how "We dont need you to carry us!"

Proceed to see, requirement DPS for boss not met because they are all AFK.

[gushDH]

Are there players who do LFR while being deep in mythic difficulty? Why? For legendary/AP farming it's better to farm all the normal and heroic. After those, it's better to run normal mythic dungeons and then broken shore stuff. LFR is very low priority to do, and most players won't have enough time to first do all the better choices and then to LFR.

If you have the free time to also do LFR, then you are the exception.

[ComputerNerd]

that sounds stupid, why limit it because some people don't like having to do content?

So those there are actually invested in it, and give a damn about the result.
So we don't get a tonne of afk'ers, simply because the content is "below them".
Either be there to participate, or don't be there at all.

Have the loot lockout be opt-in, even on a per-boss basis.
That way it solves doing the content for a friend etc.

[bigbleach]

I'll start this by saying that I can't stand the idea of LFR. I don't believe that it is interesting in any way shape or form. I believe that it is neither engaging, nor conducive to any kind of personal enjoyment, for me. I do acknowledge that it is here to say and how a vast majority of the playerbase experiences the content

The reason that high end raiders dislike it is primarily two-fold (there are arguments for a third, but I will deal with two) in that: 1) they are strongly incentived to participate in it and 2) it diminishes the sentimental value of getting the kill on whatever difficulty you aspire to complete when Johnny No-Hands and Kelly Keyboard-Turner's blind cats can kill it while maintaining around 8% of optimal DPS/HPS/tankingpersecond.

The second has been addressed by Blizzard and is why we have wings released on a delayed schedule for LFR. Sounds good. The third argument that I mentioned is that new players will see the herp-derp mode, feel like they've completed the game, and decide they're done until the new stuff.

The former point, I believe, can be remedied by having a loot lockout that is solely for LFR. If you complete a boss on LFR then you cannot receive anything from that boss in any other difficulty throughout the reset. The same goes vice versa for the other difficulties meaning that if a boss is killed on Heroic difficulty there is nothing to be gained from killing it on LFR difficulty.

There would then be no reason for anyone who does not wish to run LFR to feel like they have to, and LFR people would finally be free of all the elitist-scum who come into their LFR. They'd be left to their own devices to progress through the raid at whatever speed that randomly assigned group can muster.

TL;DR - Give LFR its own loot lockout. You can either get loot from LFR or the other three difficulties. Higher end raiders won't have to subject themselves to LFR for any kind of gain, and LFR raiders wont have to get bitched at for trying to experience the game in a way that suits them

Flame on if you disagree. I might have a terrible idea and that's fine, but I feel that this would satisfy both the LFR crowd and the anti-LFR crowd. Thoughts?

Man the gear that drops im LFR now is so terrible... why do you care..? I haven't felt the need to do LFR for gear since cata, where imho, was the only time it was a viable way to get gear on an alt since you could build your tier set. Giving a content wide lockout per one difficulty would be damaging to absolutely everybody and would make raiding even more exclusive to newer players, who likely would have never stepped into real raiding, and keep them out of it even more so. Hardcore raiders wouldn't bother with running LFR past the first few weeks and by the time all the wings are out, they are 20-30 ilvls above what drops, so there isn't a point for them to ever run it again, so they wouldn't feel compelled or forced to do so. I understand that items can titanforge and all that in LFR, but world quest items ilvls are generally higher anyways so what would be the point..? I did LFR once this expac and dropped out at the tree in EN. Mythic plus gives way better gear too lol... faster and just as easy lol. It's okay to be bitter man, but I promise you don't ever have to step into LFR. If you are, then you aren't playing the game as serious as you pretend to be in this post homie.

[Mercane]

I'd love to hear your 3rd asinine reason for why "high end" raiders hate LFR. I bet its riveting, original, and life-changing.

Most of the people that take issue with LFR existing aren't in-fact 'High End' anything. They're usually 3/10M (which at this point is synonymous with 10/10H- the hardest part of the first 3 bosses is having 20 people) nerds who think they're way better than they actually are.

It's just yet another example of Ego > Skill.

Are there players who do LFR while being deep in mythic difficulty? Why? For legendary/AP farming it's better to farm all the normal and heroic. After those, it's better to run normal mythic dungeons and then broken shore stuff. LFR is very low priority to do, and most players won't have enough time to first do all the better choices and then to LFR.

If you have the free time to also do LFR, then you are the exception.

I used to do it for runes, but even those are falling through the floor price-wise.

So I guess if there's nothing else to do, and I have a friend going, why not- otherwise, Nah- I'm good.