Are rogues under performing right now?

[Mafic]

Feint and Cheat Death should absolutely be nerfed.

I don't agree.

A blue post said they homogenized the Cheat Death mechanics and yet Rogue's cheat death is inferior to other versions other classes have. As has been pointed out not many people choose Cheat Death anymore.

As for Feint, again I don't agree, because Rogues are one the few classes that have to use resources to accomplish anything. That makes for interesting opportunity costs but also what makes playing a Rogue rewarding IMVHO!

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i was referring to demonhunters as compared in pve survivability and utility.

Objectively, feint is overpowered af. no cooldown, 50% dmg reduction vs aoe is un-matched in the game outside of tanks. A cost increase is a small price to pay for it to not be cut entirely. Though of course, no nerf would have been better.

All cheat death-type effects were nerfed to reduce "cheesing" things. Which of course meant nothing at all, we just find other ways to do it. And have to go forward with a nerfed ability. Unfortunate, but they seem to have to do it wrong to learn to do it right.

I don't see Feint as overpowered. Remember they removed the stacking bonus of Feint with Elusiveness before they also did the energy nerf to Feint.

As for DH, they have increasingly gained more mechanics since alpha that allows them to cheese things which is why Meta Stun is being removed (is the immunity staying given the long animation probably?).

In short, I argue Rogues have lost too much compared to what other classes have gained which is why I don't see why people are advocating for more nerfs of Feint or not wanting to see Cheat Death improved.

If Cheat Death is being homogenized with other similar ones across all other classes it needs to be buffed.

[Won7on]

Yeah my guild is currently on Gul'dan and im specced into leeching poison, thanks for patronizing.

There's no need to get upset because you're undergeared considering your progress. So am I.

There's also no need to try and justify rogue presence in mythic raids. Many guilds have killed Gul'dan without a single rogue. Should be a hint that rogues ain't the jewels some people here love to boast about.

Not debating about the fact that rogues are good soakers. They are, but they're not required (do i shave to spell this again ?) like you would require warriors or death knights or even ret pals for cleave duty on this fight.

Sure, that's all very reasonable, but the post I replied to said "neither feint nor cloak will make a significant difference on Gul'dan", which is a completely ridiculous statement. Cloak and Feint are VERY strong personal cooldowns for mechanic soaking, and Gul'dan is no exception.

But I don't get this complaint "rogues are one of the least played classes" are you comparing to other melee or to classes as a whole? I just checked number of parses from mythic Star Augur, Elisande and Gul'dan (so the end bosses), and the only melee significantly more represented than rogues are DHs, for obvious reasons. Not only are they the hero class of the expansion so the applications from DHs flow left and right, but they're also OP for m+, so people like to play them.

Yeah I don't get why people are intent on pushing the narrative that Rogues are woefully underrepresented in raiding.

Here's all the Gul'dan parses since 7.2: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1866
Rogue is 2nd most played DPS class, roughly tied with Mages.

As you go down in progression, the # of Rogues drops (not THAT low, mind you, #6 or 7, but ok), but go figure, 1/10M guilds are more willing to take shitty classes than 9/10M ones.

Same goes for Tichondrius. Two tanks and hunters could soak the seeker swarm

Yeah, no. Hunters don't have Elusiveness, which is what made Rogues the best soakers. Lots of classes have immunities, few classes can keep up 30% reduction on a DoT for 45 seconds.

[Deleted]

the only melee significantly more represented than rogues are DHs, for obvious reasons. Not only are they the hero class of the expansion so the applications from DHs flow left and right..

You mean just like monks in previous expansion? Or wait.. xD

[Deleted]

We are pretty good on boss fights, but we are kinda unwanted in PVP (bad damage and utility) and mythic+(no aoe utility, like DH aoe stun and sub/assa do pretty bad and inconsistent aoe dmg)

Unwanted in pvp?????? wtf are you talking about? RMP and RMD, there two insanely strong pvp comps.

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Yeah pretty much. Now I am not a pro pvper or anything, but we are indeed pretty bad, at least in lower arena and random bgs. When I play my rogue(main) it doesn't matter what I do, I just can't keep up against specific classes, like I use up all my cd's and the target's still not dead. But when I log onto my dh I just faceroll all spells (literally) and win.

Now, we can keep up with many classes to be fair, but I srsly have no idea how to beat a DH, frost DK or paladin as a rogue.

1v1 rogues are not god mode anymore and that makes me sad, you can't outplay the other speccs because of "class fantasy". they really destroyed rogues in legion imo.

[RobertMugabe]

Unwanted in pvp?????? wtf are you talking about? RMP and RMD, there two insanely strong pvp comps.

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1v1 rogues are not god mode anymore and that makes me sad, you can't outplay the other speccs because of "class fantasy". they really destroyed rogues in legion imo.

Yeah I was more talking about 2s, BG's and duells regarding rogues where they are overall bad (at least compared to any previous xpac). Should've been more specific. (for example 1v1 against a dh, frost dk or pala)

[Marrilaife]

You mean just like monks in previous expansion? Or wait.. xD

Oh wait, monks weren't a hero class.

DHs share similar fate to DKs, everyone rolled them in the expansion they appeared because:
1. starts at higher level
2. cool lore, major npc standing behind the class (Arthas / Illidan)
3. unique looks (dk eyes / voices / skins / hair colours, dh tattoos / horns / blindfolds), dh also get unique weapon type - warglaives
4. class specific mount
5. and most importantly, they launched in a strong state on their dps spec (monk tanks and healers were strong in mop, ww not so much)

Did monks start at high level, had class specific visual customization, class mount from the start and were built upon a lore of some cool memorable Warcraft character? Not really...

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As you go down in progression, the # of Rogues drops (not THAT low, mind you, #6 or 7, but ok), but go figure, 1/10M guilds are more willing to take shitty classes than 9/10M ones.

The lower you go, the more raid rosters resemble "what me / my friend wanna play" or "whoever we managed to recruit" rather than perfect rosters adjusted towards good comp and strong classes.

For example I often see low-end mythic guilds raiding without a holy paladin, is it optimal? Nope. But they probably didn't manage to find one and their own healers play whatever classes they wanna and not whatever is strongest or benefits the raid comp the most. That's how it goes in semi-casual guilds and it's natural. Only top guilds min-max their roster because they either split run so have multiple classes per player to choose from, or they just have a long bench because they're top dogs on their server, get tons of apps, and can cherry pick people who both are skilled enough and play the class they want to add to the roster. Lower guilds don't have that luxury.

[RobertoCarlos]

This thread still going? I thought everyone had already rerolled DH and Fury warrior because you know Rogues are garbo at everything.

Oh wait they are not and this thread is pointless, carry on.

[Tusq]

This thread still going? I thought everyone had already rerolled DH and Fury warrior because you know Rogues are garbo at everything.

Oh wait they are not and this thread is pointless, carry on.

Nice and informative post. Just like this one

[ymirsson]

Nice and informative post. Just like this one

C'mon guys, stop posting useless stuff and write constructive things, like this post!

[Halobob87]

Is this tread still going on? Lol.

Rogue are NOT underperforming. In raid, they were always strong and will always be strong.
There are 5 dps classes in this game: rogue, mage, lock, hunter and warr. The rest are just fotm specs or mediocre/ bad 90% of the time.

[Xanatu]

The big guilds are preparing to run 3-4 rogues for progression again. Please just shut this thread down. Rogues are useful, as they have been for the past decade for virtually every raid except like...Highmaul.

[Cyanix]

There are 5 dps classes in this game: rogue, mage, lock, hunter and warr.

Made my day.

[Nekroman]

Wot. Just because they are pure dps classess does not remove other dps specs from the equation. Im only 3/10m and not overly educated but im pretty sure thats some bad science.

[Marrilaife]

Wot. Just because they are pure dps classess does not remove other dps specs from the equation. Im only 3/10m and not overly educated but im pretty sure thats some bad science.

He has a point, after all these years wow is rolling, if you play a pure dps class you expect to be close to the top of the meters, if not, people cry murder to Blizzard (remember the inundation of warlock posts since start of Legion until affli became finally broken OP?). Warrior for some reason counts as pure dps. Dunno why. If you main a dps shaman, dk (post-wrath) or monk you're used to sucking and you're surprised if for 1 tier your class doesn't suck (like DKs in NH).

If for example spriest is OP (like in EN), it can't really last long, needs to get nerfed asap, if we sum all the tiers, the top caster spec in vast majority of them will be some spec of mage or warlock.

The only problem of playing pure dps class in legion is that you might have to put extra work into offspec artifacts or legendaries, so they have it kinda harder than in previous expansions.

[RobertoCarlos]

Druids are among that group. They always have a solid dps spec in feral or boomkin, But because feral has more than one bleed everyone thinks its too hard to play and act like its only for the elite at top level.

WoWs protected 3 has always been Pally(not ret)/Druid/Mage. Hunter used to be on the list but got ejected post warlords.

[Naiattavain]

well just looking at this this is what i thought; Every class is running around with insane amounts of power might as well buff rogue somehow because rogues die the fastest. some type of trade off for damage or spellbook usage for survival.

[Halobob87]

Wot. Just because they are pure dps classess does not remove other dps specs from the equation. Im only 3/10m and not overly educated but im pretty sure thats some bad science.

Lol is not. Doesn't matter how many times blizzard claims otherwhise, but the "hybrid tax" is something that exist, in some form at last. All pure dps classes (and warr as well, for some reason) pretty much always had at last 1 really strong spec in basically 90% of the tiers in wow history. If u roll one of those classes, u can't go wrong , couse u will either be strong or buffed soon if not anyway.
All other classes just sit in the middle- bottom tiers dps whise, and, if they somehow reach the top spots, they get nerfed pretty quickly or just fall behind the next tier.
Do u want an example? Easy, just look at WW.
They started okish during T14, became pretty strong tx to their new mastery + rune of reorganization in ToT, became weak in SoO couse of their totally useless mastery 3.0. Started pretty strong in HM , and then blizzard ista-nerfed then and so they became useless for the rest of WoD. In EN and ToV they were nothing special, and while during early NH they where decent, they are now pretty weak outside cleave/AoE (they've the worst st in game), and , going into ToS, they look even weaker couse they're AoE got an HUGE nerf, with little to noone ST compensations.

Let's look at Locks now (in the same time frame).
They where strong during both T14 (as affly) and 15 (as demo), totally 100% broken during SoO. Started okish with HM, became really strong with demo during BRF, and became one of the strongest spec in HFC. With legion, they started in a kinda weak spot, bot got insane buffs during NH.

[nocturnus]

because rogues die the fastest

If that's the case in your experience, I'm very sorry to say you aren't playing the class right.

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Lol is not. Doesn't matter how many times blizzard claims otherwhise, but the "hybrid tax" is something that exist, in some form at last. All pure dps classes (and warr as well, for some reason) pretty much always had at last 1 really strong spec in basically 90% of the tiers in wow history. If u roll one of those classes, u can't go wrong , couse u will either be strong or buffed soon if not anyway.
All other classes just sit in the middle- bottom tiers dps whise, and, if they somehow reach the top spots, they get nerfed pretty quickly or just fall behind the next tier.
Do u want an example? Easy, just look at WW.
They started okish during T14, became pretty strong tx to their new mastery + rune of reorganization in ToT, became weak in SoO couse of their totally useless mastery 3.0. Started pretty strong in HM , and then blizzard ista-nerfed then and so they became useless for the rest of WoD. In EN and ToV they were nothing special, and while during early NH they where decent, they are now pretty weak outside cleave/AoE (they've the worst st in game), and , going into ToS, they look even weaker couse they're AoE got an HUGE nerf, with little to noone ST compensations.

Let's look at Locks now (in the same time frame).
They where strong during both T14 (as affly) and 15 (as demo), totally 100% broken during SoO. Started okish with HM, became really strong with demo during BRF, and became one of the strongest spec in HFC. With legion, they started in a kinda weak spot, bot got insane buffs during NH.

The hybrid tax is between your ears, especially now. Indeed, the strongest dps classes in game right now are deathknights, fury warriors and demon hunters; all hybrids last time I checked. Feral druids are underrated and perform extremely well too.

[Geckoo]

I don't think this is an issue about rogues, is more about the balance between strengths and weaknesses across the game.

Rogues are usually balanced: High survivability, very good single target damage, bad aoe. The problem comes because there are specs that are good at everything without any strong trade-off, so compared to them... sure, is easy to believe that we are underperforming, even if we are not.

[Deleted]

Let me also remind you that a better version of our only utility in m+ (yes, it's also the thing, not just raids) is achieved by a potion that costs 5g.
While other classes have frequent mass stuns, aoe silences and interrupts, group healing, swaps, combat ress, speed boosts etc. Most viable rogue spec in M+ doesnt even have a foking slow.