If Azshara becomes an entry boss or even just a filler raid like ToV, I'll necro this thread with a Nelson Muntz meme just to tick off all the fanboys
Shath'mag vwyq shu et'agthu, Shath'mag sshk ye! Krz'ek fhn'z agash zz maqdahl or'kaaxth'ma amqa!
The Black Empire once ruled this pitiful world, and it will do so again! Your pitiful kind will know only despair and sorrow for a hundred thousand millennia to come!
Avatar drawn by Sir Meo
Oh boy, look at that poll. The Azshara fanwank squad stroke again.
I mean, look at all the arguments in favor of Azshara being da mightiest being da world has EVAR seen:
-Azshara was uber powerful during the WotA to the point of making Mannoroth shitting on his pants and being considered equal to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde!
Now, making Mannoroth shit on his pants when he has pretty much become cannon fodder at this point is hardly a monumental feat and, most importantly, Mannoroth implied that only Kil'jaeden and Archimonde would have proved superior to her. Considered the noticeable power gap between the Eredar Lords and their minions, it could mean a lot as it could mean little.
Last but absolutely not least, Azshara's magnificent power had the Well of Eternity as its source, something that, oops, no longer exists. She was gifted, sure, an incredible talent, indeed, but the raw potency of her power was heavily amplified by the Well. Without that she's just a particularly gifted mage. A stronger Khadgar or Jaina at most. She would still be roflstomped by a Guardian.
-On top of that (because people apparently believe the Well of Eternity still exists) she got an Old God power up! Look how uber-powa Deathwing was because of that! She's the mighiest!1!1!!
And here is somewhat forgot that Deathwing was that powerful mostly because of his (and the other Aspects', thanks to the Demon Soul) Titan gifts, not because of the Old Gods. The Old Gods have merely been good in corrupting and manipulating that immense power to fit their world-ending needs. There's a reason if Deathwing was their ultimate weapon while all Azshara did in Cataclysm was serving as freaking distraction (yeah, a distraction! lol) for Malfurion, so that Ragnaros and the Twilight's Hammer could better finish their work at Hyjal. So not only Azshara was below Deathwing in importance but below Ragnaros as well.
Sooo here we go. At the end of the day there's literally nothing even barely implying that Azshara is some kind of all-mighty goddess. This myth lives through nothing but a widespread net of misinformation, lies and aggressive headcanon. And thanks to that here we are, putting fucking Azshara over the goddamn Lich King.
This sums it up rather perfectly! I tip my hat to you, good sir.
I was going to say it's a match between a Mage and a Death Knight. As a Warlock, I am frigging terrfied of Death Knights, they arn't as scary as they used to be back in WotLK, they where pretty much Anti-Spellcaster back then. Havn't played for a while so I am uncertain how they are right now. But back then, I was powerless as a Spellcaster against a Death Knight, they do indeed hold true to their name.
That said, I do not believe that the Lich King would simple walk over her, but both of them would be equaly matched, who would actully win? I actully don't know, I would like to put my vote into Lich King, but in all of it, I ain't sure, also that we don't know how Azshara is today, but perhaps time will tell!
Last edited by OverFanNisseFrasse; 2017-07-30 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Forgot to add my opinion on Azshara versus the Lich King
Every Azshara fanboy ever: She has an old god buff now! She also once surpassed Mannoroth AGES ago. She's stronger than the LK here.
Every LK fanboy ever: He's a god. He was created by Kil'jaeden himself. And even now, he's surpassed him. I mean, it's not like the Ashbringer (Pre-Legion btw) broke Frostmourne into nothing but pieces. NO!
Me: Ugh. The Lich King's strong, but not strong enough. in 1v1, he would get raped by Azshara's magical might. Why is that even something to argue about? HOWEVER, in terms of armies, both the LK, and Azshara are smart there. So, if it was in the Sea, then Azshara would win. But, on land, the Undead slaughter.
But, if we include the Player Characters in this, then we win. Not only are we likely going to slay Azshara next expansion, but, as of RIGHT NOW, we Rival/Surpass Kil'jaeden in power (We, btw. Not just 1 person). If you guys DARE think that the Lich King is Azshara tier in a 1v1, then you're insane as fuck.
The Lich King was intimidated by a man with a blessed blade. Azshara (As of now) has no intimidation. Hell, her "Wrath" alone required some skill to take on, even with the Artifacts.
I'm no Azshara fanboy, nor do I hate the Lich King. I am clearly stating my statistics on what I've seen from each Villain so far.
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And this sums up my opinions over the "Azshara" comments so far. Thanks, Zulkhan.
If Kil'jaeden was stronger than Mannoroth would say so, Titans are dead, Elune? She ain't fighting anyone.. Malorne was killed by Archimonde with ease, Guardiand of Tirisfal is nothing without Council, and Ysera the Aspect was murdered by Xavius lol..
Guardians did not get power. Council LENDS power to guardian temporary in order to fight.its not about how they got their power (heck, Azshara got the Well). its about who is above who and pre skip Azshara definitely isn't above the Guardians of Tirisfal.
When Azshara was "pre-skip" humans did not even exist... Dude learn lore then argue here..
Last edited by ItsSpiRo; 2017-07-30 at 10:45 PM.
Azshara could slap the Lich King across the face of Azeroth with her pinky, she's litterary the most powerfull creature on azeroth even pre-naga, people that vote Lich-King here obviously have no clue about Azshara as a character, wheras The Lich King isnt even close to the power-level of Kil'Jaeden, and certainly alot weaker in lore now that he's lacking everything except the crown from the "Plate of the Damned" lich-king armor-set, along with Frostmourne, even with all these things there likely would'nt be a battle, as Azshara would just woop his his ass.
Mannoroth was described as a flea compared to her , and she even forced him to swallow his pride and bow which made him reflect on the feeling of being stared at like a mouse before the cat and claim that only his true-master could hope to match her, Azshara was powerfull enough to passively mindcontroll about 80% of the Highborne-Race, and was by many described as the most powerfull arcane-magician to ever roam the world, and was set to be married to Sargeras himself, she's past Old-God Tier Power level, and only Deathwing (was able to sunder azeroth further), Sargeras and the Void-Gods are potential matches above her in strength... all this is calculated before her even turning into a Naga, and being empowered by the Old-Gods.
She also stole the Trident of Neptulon in Cataclysm so....
Last edited by Filipse; 2017-07-30 at 10:51 PM.
That was from back when she had access to the well which is long gone. At this point, Jaina would put up a good fight if not kill her.
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lol no she wasn't. She was "one of the most powerful mages" before she had the well. She once again no longer has the well and is probably worse off than before due the delirium tremens she probably has from not getting her crack aka the well.
Sorry to pop your bubble but a Dave Kosak tweet said 1 vs 1 Arthas/Lich King would lose against Lei Shen. Arthas/Lich King would win however with armies intact because he is "smarter" and "his scourge would rip his empire to SHREDS".
https://twitter.com/davekosak/status/759552173579591680
It's a good spring board where you have those official statements really. It's just trying to gauge between others like Azshara. Could the Lich King/Bolvar ascend to that level Arthas was on? We can't even tell. As for Arthas/Lich King can he turn the Naga? We've not seen an undead Naga to know otherwise and plenty of other things that could make this match up have more clarity.
Last edited by Evangeliste; 2017-07-30 at 10:54 PM.
How about the fact that only she and the highborne were allowed direct access to the well for a good while and the well is a massive font of power that she had a very long time to attune herself to..... oh wait she doesn't have that anymore... yeah she's back to "one of the most powerful" and even less now.
Azshara had 0 issues, totaly eradicating Azsuna as a zone with a single spell, something which the Lich-King cant even get close to without resorting to the use of sending endless armies of mindless undead, the Lich King doesnt even have close to the destructive power of Deathwing, Achimonde or Kil'Jaeden from a lore-perspective, heck even Mannoroth's done better on that part, the Lich King is objectively shit at 1v1 situations, power comes in controlling armies not dirrect-combat.
Last edited by Filipse; 2017-07-30 at 11:04 PM.
Eh, given how vague her power is, this is unsubstantiated as well. We've never seen anything solid from Azshara without Well of Eternity to gauge her power one way or another.
Now, a speculation of my own (or theorycrafting to be more specific), but one of Illidan's vials from the original Well of Eternity is still unaccounted for. It's possible it was still in Kerrilldank's possession around TBC given the state of the other two unused vials. And she was surrounded by Naga. The Illidari Naga are opposed to Neptulon at least, just like Azshara, so there could have been Azshara loyalists mixed in with the rest of the squad, on the lookout for fancy stuff in Outland. Azshara is sort of artifact hoarder for what we know of her.
Now, to establish the theory part of theorycrafting, if Blizzard thought things through and decided that Azshara isn't powerful in her own right to be a focus of the story, they could make it that she did get her scaly hands on said vial and used it to create a smaller Well of Eternity for her own use. Technically a Sunwell v2, but it's not like sun reaches Zin-Azshari. Plus who knows how potent it'd get if used at the place of the original WoE.
Deathwing never personally held the gifts of the other Aspects. And those gifts were freed by Rhonin when he destroyed the Demon Soul anyway. Besides, by his own admission, he did receive new gifts from Old Gods since his last appearance. Gifts, that judging from the context of the discussion in which he raised the topic, were supposed to replace the Titan ones he squandered (and, judging by his other encounters, no longer gave a shit about), possibly even surpass it.
I'd say it's more because of Malfurion's personal history with Azshara that Azshara worked as a distraction against him. Would have worked with Xavius as well (as evidenced by Legion). Deathwing could have puked other Deathwings instead of Ragnaros up on Hyjal and Malfurion would still have focused on Azshara. Doesn't say much about her power per se. Plus at the time of Darkshore the Twilight Hammer offensive on Hyjal was still rather low-key.
As for chain of command, we have no established source saying she did it on Deathwing's behalf and not because N'zoth told her so. Deathwing summoning Ragnaros or some of the Al'akir stuff indicates a difference in rank between Deathwing and the Elemental Lords, but Azshara merely calls everyone involved in Hyjal allies, nothing else. She also didn't engage in Deathwing's campaign other than that, instead pursuing her own goals (and perhaps acting as N'zoth's backup plan in case Hour of Twilight failed).
Eh, other than maybe MoP (which still had Lei Shen, i.e. someone stronger than Arthas), the Lich King is still the shittiest expansion end boss in WoW's history. Power-wise, that is.
Even without the well back then, Azshara would most likely destroy Jaina. People don't seem to realise what a difference thousands of years to excercise your skills would truly do- sadly, this appears to include Blizzard at times.
Also, I should remind you, Azshara hasn't moved, and the gaping wound in Azeroth's side pumping out so much magic it could level half a continent(an entire one at this point tbh), has absolutely not disappeared. If anything, Azshara has probably plugged it with her ass so she can have it all shoved up her anus, and even without that she'd still be one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful mage on Azeroth.
And if you're going to make the, "Jaina is the most powerful mortal mage on Azeroth" argument, let me remind you that Azshara is not mortal
We know however that without the Well, she was just another Night Elf with some impressive gift for the Arcane. And there's only that far a mortal arcanist can go. If anything, she was a rather undisciplined sorcerer who entirely relied upon her talent and the raw potency of the Well where Khadgar, for example, wields magic forged through centuries of academic progress and development. Maybe Azshara has such an amazing talent that she can compensate for all of that by just being "awesome" but again, there's really not that far she can go without a solid power boost. And being the Arcane her most prominent field of competence, I'm not sure how the Old Gods may have helped in compensating the loss of the Well. I'm pretty sure they likely didn't.
Azshara's habit of hoarding around is quite a decent indicator that she's definitely in need to boost some power she doesn't currently possess herself. Now, it may be totally possible that the moment we meet her she may have turned into something but since all the hype about her is built on past and overall misinterpreted information the evalutation is fundamentally flawed. The fact that she barely shows her squamous face around doesn't surely help.Now, a speculation of my own (or theorycrafting to be more specific), but one of Illidan's vials from the original Well of Eternity is still unaccounted for. It's possible it was still in Kerrilldank's possession around TBC given the state of the other two unused vials. And she was surrounded by Naga. The Illidari Naga are opposed to Neptulon at least, just like Azshara, so there could have been Azshara loyalists mixed in with the rest of the squad, on the lookout for fancy stuff in Outland. Azshara is sort of artifact hoarder for what we know of her.
Now, to establish the theory part of theorycrafting, if Blizzard thought things through and decided that Azshara isn't powerful in her own right to be a focus of the story, they could make it that she did get her scaly hands on said vial and used it to create a smaller Well of Eternity for her own use. Technically a Sunwell v2, but it's not like sun reaches Zin-Azshari. Plus who knows how potent it'd get if used at the place of the original WoE.
Pretty sure Deathwing tried at first to absorb the power of the (once) Dragon Soul onto himself. He succeeded to a degree but couldn't go far with that as the power was pretty much tearing his body apart. That was the reason he started to wear the plating, to keep his body whole and given how this habit wasn't lost in Cataclysm, the power was still there.Deathwing never personally held the gifts of the other Aspects. And those gifts were freed by Rhonin when he destroyed the Demon Soul anyway.
I'd like to apply a degree of cautiousness when judging Deathwing's own statements as he never really looked that sane throughout the expansion. Alexstrasza mentions "wasted gifts", which to me sounds more like making a shitty usage of such gifts rather than being replaced by something else. Then of course Deathwing praised the "true masters of Azeroth" and all that jazz which, in fact, is not totally untrue as the awakening of Yogg-Saron and C'Thun definitely delivered a power boost of sort, but the base of that power remained strictly tied to Deathwing's unique gifts over the earth. Hell, he was a literal flying bomb of magma ready to explode at the right moment. The "hand" of the Old Gods wasn't really that visible (maybe except the magma tentacles sprouting during the Spine/Madness fights) given how the Old Gods' entire realm of competence is the Void. And you can see the connection between Old Gods and Deathwing as much as the one between Void and Dark Shamanism: not a direct power boost but rather the twisting and corruption of an already established power.Besides, by his own admission, he did receive new gifts from Old Gods since his last appearance. Gifts, that judging from the context of the discussion in which he raised the topic, were supposed to replace the Titan ones he squandered (and, judging by his other encounters, no longer gave a shit about), possibly even surpass it.
It's not a direct indication of her power (it may still be an indirect one, though) but surely said something about the overall importance. It's nonetheless underwhelming that during the epitome of all Old Gods' plans, the Hour of Twilight, all Azshara did was distracting a mortal druid. I can see someone coming up with excuses like game mechanics and other gibberish but on the end of the day, in the unfolding of the grand scheme planned by millennias by the Old Gods, Azshara meant shit. And I don't see the point of sidelining in that way someone who's, according to some of the folks here, the most powerful being on Azeroth or something along those lines.I'd say it's more because of Malfurion's personal history with Azshara that Azshara worked as a distraction against him. Would have worked with Xavius as well (as evidenced by Legion). Deathwing could have puked other Deathwings instead of Ragnaros up on Hyjal and Malfurion would still have focused on Azshara. Doesn't say much about her power per se. Plus at the time of Darkshore the Twilight Hammer offensive on Hyjal was still rather low-key.
I didn't meant actual chains of command but rather overall importance and relevance in N'Zoth's schemes. It's pretty clear as day that Azshara was, as you put it, a backup plan at most. If she was free to pursue her own goals it may also mean that she wasn't really needed for anything really important (even though the hostile actions pursued against Neptulon pretty much reflected those of the Twilight's Hammer against Therazane, having in common the unwillingness to join their buddies Ragnaros and Al'akir in the whole Old God fuckfest, meaning Azshara's forces at least had a part to play, albeit not a really big one).As for chain of command, we have no established source saying she did it on Deathwing's behalf and not because N'zoth told her so. Deathwing summoning Ragnaros or some of the Al'akir stuff indicates a difference in rank between Deathwing and the Elemental Lords, but Azshara merely calls everyone involved in Hyjal allies, nothing else. She also didn't engage in Deathwing's campaign other than that, instead pursuing her own goals (and perhaps acting as N'zoth's backup plan in case Hour of Twilight failed).
Oh I really have no intention to fanwank on the Lich King either but I still easily consider Arthas above Azshara as long the most we can guess of her is being the top Naga arcanist. For all we currently know, there's really not much beyond that.Eh, other than maybe MoP (which still had Lei Shen, i.e. someone stronger than Arthas), the Lich King is still the shittiest expansion end boss in WoW's history. Power-wise, that is.
when the guy from Blizz state that Lich King would lose against Thunder King 1v1 it was the Thunder King in Chronicle we are talking about, the thunder king from Pandaria don't even compare with his past self
Azshara has zero feats, I can't give her this fight base on hype, can she be more powerful than Arthas? yes but first she has to prove it, her been more powerful than mannoroth prove nothing here as i can see Lich King easly defeat him
Azhara wins this one definitely, hands down.