Poll: Azhara or Arthas

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  1. #201
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Eh, the Legion gathers all sort of crap too. Even Sargeras crafted himself some artifacts to achieve certain things he couldn't have done otherwise.
    The difference is that we know Sargeras doesn't show his face around because he's not exactly easy to summon (the same more or less applied to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde as well). Azshara has no such excuses yet she definitely avoids direct confrontations of any sort.

    IIRC it's just because he was so obsessed with it that he wore it on his body all the time.
    Well, I remember quite clearly Deathwing growing in considerable size while unmistakenly trying to absorb the Dragon Soul's power in the WotA instance.

    I know Deathwing isn't the most trustful narrator, but I kinda doubt Titans gave Neltharion the power to turn his wings and limbs into giant molten tentacles with enough power to kill another Aspect on their own. Same goes for magical superblood or the fact that nothing can kill him since he'll regenerate even from scraps. And I didn't mean they were replaced per se. Just that he got them and used them instead of the Aspect power for the most part.
    I agree that the magical superblood may be Old God's own and exclusive material (especially if he developed such ability right in Cataclysm and not before, something I don't honestly remember) but Old Gods can't produce magma. Magma is, in fact, a natural element. It's molten earth in the first place. And that's strictly tied to Deathwing's original Titan gift. The Old Gods merely reshaped that basis.

    And I'm not sure if the Void and Dark Shamanism is the best comparison. First of all, it's mostly achieved through Decay and only AU Orcs used Void for that. Secondly, Dark Shamanism, at least from what I gather, is more about a shortcut to what Shamanism can offer. Whereas in case of Deathwing, I'm not sure where the concept of shortcuts could even apply.
    Dark Shamanism is much more than simply bending the elements to one's will. It manages to corrupt and twist the elements. That's why Garrosh's shamans could turn the elements into "burned-out ash, corrupted waters and toxic air." Magma itself is considered a form of elemental unbalance as it merges fire and earth in a way it shouldn't be (at least within the instances where the elements are supposed to be independent and pure) and magma is definitely among the arsenal of Dark Shamans, seeing their ability to summon twisted molten giants and whose creation are considered a dangerous practice and threat towards elemental balance. Now, if we look at Deathwing, we see what once was the Aspect of Earth, who lorded over everything earth-related, turning into a fiery magma agglomeration. To me the parallel is obvious enough.

    About Decay, well, Death and Decay can definitely be seen as the physical manifestation of Void within the universe much as Life and Spirit are of the Light. They're not directly related but when the primordial clash happened, it's quite easy to understand which one of the two cosmic forces had the bigger role in the creations of these physical energies. This is indeed further confirmed from the Warsong Orcs of AU Nagrand, that achieved very similar results to Dark Shamanism by harnessing the Void into their elemental practicies. The Old Gods are themselves, moreover, actual physical manifestations of the Void Lords within the universe, albeit their origin remain the Void realm, which means they may not actually unrelated to the Decay sphere.

    Well, as I said, she was most likely plan B. I mean, she's no Deathwing, but she still could have been a great asset for the Hour of Twilight and yet was almost unused by N'zoth.
    Depends from the extent of that asset. Chances are that Azshara's own army was, back then, more valuable and strategically useful than Azshara herself.

    And being a backup replacement for Deathwing would actually say quite a lot about her in terms of importance to N'zoth or her power, and rather positive things at that.
    Well, that if she's imagined as a literal back up plan, something that can't really be confirmed. I doubt she could even barely match Deathwing's immense destructive potential. Being a back up plan may also simply mean playing a more direct role in the grand scheme once Deathwing failed, ranging from working on freeing N'Zoth, resurrecting Deathwing himself or achieving the Hour of Twilight through other means. Then again, Deathwing actually failed and the Hour of Twilight never happened and she did nothing about it, one way or the other.
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  2. #202
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Kind of depends, really. We've really no backstory on Goroth aside from knowledge that he's failed quite a lot. Perhaps Goroth's incompetence is a bit of a Legion legend and in-joke - we've just not encountered him yet because the Legion didn't trust him in any capacity against defenders that have repulsed them twice over.
    I don't think there is a single member of burning legion who has right to mock someones incompetence.

  3. #203
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I don't think there is a single member of burning legion who has right to mock someones incompetence.
    Criticism is relative. If one assumes the bar is very low for the rank and file of the Burning Legion, then just imagine what Goroth must have in his personnel file to earn the disdain of his peers like that.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #204
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Criticism is relative. If one assumes the bar is very low for the rank and file of the Burning Legion, then just imagine what Goroth must have in his personnel file to earn the disdain of his peers like that.
    Perhaps he said "Guys we need to rethink our strategy" during important meeting ?

  5. #205
    I usually enjoy these speculation threads, but it gets so annoying when random limiters are thrown on characters because the OP is biased. You've completely removed necromantic powers from the Lich King based on the OP's responses in this thread. That's like removing arcane energy from Azshara and then pitting her vs. a full powered Lich King with necromancy. Gee golly guys, I wonder who would win?

  6. #206
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I usually enjoy these speculation threads, but it gets so annoying when random limiters are thrown on characters because the OP is biased. You've completely removed necromantic powers from the Lich King based on the OP's responses in this thread. That's like removing arcane energy from Azshara and then pitting her vs. a full powered Lich King with necromancy. Gee golly guys, I wonder who would win?
    My issue with these types of threads is that they're so contextual - outside patently mismatched opponents (e.g. Sargeras vs. a Gnomish infant) it's very difficult to say who could "win" in a duel between two powerful and skilled characters. Does the Lich King has a contingent of Scourge minions at his back as part of his power is based on raising and controlling the undead? Does Azshara have her complete will or is she suborned by N'Zoth's control? Does Azshara have access to N'Zoth's power in addition to her own, where is the fight staged (and would that have an effect on the Lich King's relative power level)? Given a change in circumstance, location, or specifics the match could swing in a number of directions wildly and randomly.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #207
    Bloodsail Admiral Rathbourne's Avatar
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    Closing this thread would be a good idea. 11 pages of rather baseless speculation.Everything that need to be said has kinda been said.

  8. #208
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Azshara's power is up to speculation and she is heavily overrated.

    Lich King wins this until Azshara gets some feats.
    Basically this.

    Essentially what's being compared is:
    1) Someone who - in the original timeline - was unable to defeat Malfurion in a direct encounter (ie: raw power vs. raw power), and then - in both timelines - required the help of N'zoth because she was unable to maintain a barrier to stop the crashing tides of the Sundering or cast any magic to allow her and her servants to survive underwater.
    2) An entity which, in it's initial and weakest incarnation, was able to spread a plague of undeath and take over a continent without needing a body of his own, telepathically communicate to creatures - living (Kel'thuzad) or dead (the Scourge) - on other continents, and had the intellect to both manipulate the Legion and the forces of Azeroth such that his most powerful and intelligent servants believed him able to tell the future (contentious, as Ner'zhul was a Shaman and could have very well been able to do so).
    In its second incarnation, displayed many of the aforementioned powers, as well as having successfully killed the heroes of Azeroth - the ones who defeated Illidan, Kil'jaeden, and fully awoken C'thun - to only be defeated because his own hubris.
    And finally, in its third incarnation, displays the powers of his previous incarnations, as well as being known to have a significantly stronger will than Arthas (he did not break after the death of his men, dying painfully because of Putress' gassing of the joint Alliance/Horde forces, being brought back to life in a twisted form by Alexstraza's flame, and then captured and tortured by Arthas within the span of the Northrend campaign) and is, arguably, stronger than him, depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision.

    It's not a competition. The only reason you would vote for Azshara is if you took nothing into account but Mannoth's aside stating that only Archimonde and Kil'jaeden would prove her superior, and assumed that because of this she needs no real feats of her own.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Basically this.

    It's not a competition. The only reason you would vote for Azshara is if you took nothing into account but Mannoth's aside stating that only Archimonde and Kil'jaeden would prove her superior, and assumed that because of this she needs no real feats of her own.
    I want to add (maybe many mentioned it but as many ignored it) - Azshara was powerful because of her link with the Well of Eternity. So were and all casters on Azeroth due its effects on the magic. Now the Well is destroyed (as of the end result of WotA) and Azshara power source is completely removed from the picture.
    Maybe, just maybe, the deal with the Old gods she made to survive the Sundering gave her extra "juice", but in no way she will be able to reach that level of power she had 10k years ago.

    We have never rellly witnessed the true power of both characters, but if i remember somewhere there was story about how Athas main plan was actually to get KJ to the Frozen Throne, because that is the only place where he can have the upper hand in a fight with him. Idk if it was fan made or w/e, but iI think it showed that the LK actualy had way way more power than we ever saw. He was just kinda saving for the bigger fight.
    Also some people mentioned it - we all know what happens when you get mage vs antimage fight.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    And finally, in its third incarnation, displays the powers of his previous incarnations, as well as being known to have a significantly stronger will than Arthas (he did not break after the death of his men, dying painfully because of Putress' gassing of the joint Alliance/Horde forces, being brought back to life in a twisted form by Alexstraza's flame, and then captured and tortured by Arthas within the span of the Northrend campaign) and is, arguably, stronger than him, depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision.
    What do you mean depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision? I thought it's 200% canonical material and in 400% is about Bolvar?
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  11. #211
    And the guys on the top almost know the story. Azshara fought with Malfurion in the manual to Warcraft 3. In the Chronicles there is not a word about their battle. And even in the Manual it was not said that he specifically defeated her 1 by 1. She just could not stop him from destroying the Well. It does not really show her power.
    Oh my God, how I already hate people with their argument about '' The well was destroyed ''. Xavia's strength also came from the Well, but with him he lost to Malfurion (even after becoming a satyr), however, after concluding a deal with N'Zot in the book, he captured and tortured Malfurion, who could not get out without the Ax. Not to mention the fact that in the Legion Malfurion lost just the avatar of Xavia. You really underestimate how much Old God could help Azshara.

  12. #212
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What do you mean depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision? I thought it's 200% canonical material and in 400% is about Bolvar?
    To be fair, it's not entirely clear who the Lich King of the vision is, only that he's stronger than both Arthas and Ner'zhul ever were.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    You really underestimate how much Old God could help Azshara.
    No, it's people overestimating that. Because, so far, the Naga shown nothing really special about them except being a bunch of reptillian creatures able to live and breath underwater that managed to develop a powerful connection with the sea and water elemental magics, for obvious reasons. And Azshara has no reasons to be that different. If she was then all of her subjects should have shown a lesser extent of that. Rather, everything implies that right now she's probably pretty darn good with those water elemental magics. Maybe, since she's above the average in terms of talent, she'll be able to mix it perfectly with tons of Shadow magic (thanks to the Old Gods). But that's it. Surely not some incredibly impressive monster who could mop the floor with the Lich King himself.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    To be fair, it's not entirely clear who the Lich King of the vision is, only that he's stronger than both Arthas and Ner'zhul ever were.
    That was my point :3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  14. #214
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That was my point :3
    I may have lost the sarcasm vibe when I read "200% canonical material" and thought about Velen's vision technically being "canon". But yeah, all the deep and mysterious meanings attached to it by the playerbase always make the difference. Like the people giving for granted that Anduin was destinied to be pally because The Vision shown some hardened paladin then shifted to Anduin. Bam, connection made (even though it was clearly Turalyon and 7.3 is confirming that but whatever).
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
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    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  15. #215
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I may have lost the sarcasm.
    you have lost your sarcasm since you changed your troll identity.
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    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  16. #216
    pre skip Malfurion has better feats than Azshara anyway lol.

  17. #217
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    you have lost your sarcasm since you changed your troll identity.
    Plot twist: my identity never changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  18. #218
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    To be fair, it's not entirely clear who the Lich King of the vision is, only that he's stronger than both Arthas and Ner'zhul ever were.
    Is is really not clear ? That vision clearly shown us some trouble...brewing.

  19. #219
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Is is really not clear ? That vision clearly shown us some trouble...brewing.
    Lich King is obvious pawn in that vision, a broken tool meant to entertain Azeroth while the master is busy conquering all multiverses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
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    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    LK imo
    Azsharah wast exactly impressive, neither in Cata nor in Legion. Also, the thing what made her so powerful back in WoA was the well of eternity,which is gone.
    I agree with this. Azshara is very lame these days. Arthas is far superior.
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