Which events from the Chronicles are not canon anymore?

[Deleted]

No they aren't? They are based on the Norse Gods, hence Odyn=Odin, Thorim=Thor, Loken=Loki, Freya=Freyja, Himdall=Heimdall, Helya=Hela etc. Nothing to do with the greeks. On top of that, the Vrykul that the titan Keepers created are very much like Vikings, even the accents, the Valkyr are the Valkiries, even Teldrassil, Vordrassil and Andrassil etc are based on the world tree Yggdrassil in Norse mythology.

I'm really not sure how you link them to the Greek Gods other than the fact that they were also a Pantheon.

They are actually based on both. The fact that they are called Titans, they have a Pantheon and they are metalic is straight from Greek mythology. Including the clear greek architecture and culture.

The Keepers are the ones with Norse names, not the Titans themselves.

[LaserChild9]

They are actually based on both. The fact that they are called Titans, they have a Pantheon and they are metalic is straight from Greek mythology. Including the clear greek architecture and culture.

The Keepers are the ones with Norse names, not the Titans themselves.

Have you got any examples of how they are specifically influenced by the Greek Mythology? The Norse Gods were a Pantheon too so that is not exclusive to them. I dont recall the Greek Gods being metallic but I could be wrong, though in respects to the titans themselves, it is stated that there are 2 types, Aesir and Vanir which is Norse. The only thing I can think of that directly correlates to the Greek Pantheon is the word 'titans' but that's it.

[FelPlague]

Nothing was retconned, just gaps filled in.
I do like how you claim retcons, but then give no examples i mean...
You literally just say "stuff is retconned that sucks"

I should just make a thread that says "My spell is stupid, that is all" like... what spell? How is it stupid?

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Someone should tweet the devs.

If they're retconning the 'definitive source of Warcraft lore' then that's pretty fucked up.

Dont worry they are not.

[Deleted]

Have you got any examples of how they are specifically influenced by the Greek Mythology? The Norse Gods were a Pantheon too so that is not exclusive to them. I dont recall the Greek Gods being metallic but I could be wrong, though in respects to the titans themselves, it is stated that there are 2 types, Aesir and Vanir which is Norse. The only thing I can think of that directly correlates to the Greek Pantheon is the word 'titans' but that's it.

That's why I said based on both. The Titans themselves are based on the Greek Pantheon of Titans and Gods, with the same powers of nature and creation, with the same architecture and culture.

The Titan Keepers and Watchers are the ones based on all other Mythological Pantheons, including the Norse (the Keepers), the Egyptian (the Uldum Watchers) and the Chinese (the Mogu).

The Aesir and Vanir are two sister-races Titan Watchers in Warcraft lore, not the Titans themselves.

[TyrannicalPuppy]

No they aren't? They are based on the Norse Gods, hence Odyn=Odin, Thorim=Thor, Loken=Loki, Freya=Freyja, Himdall=Heimdall, Helya=Hela etc. Nothing to do with the greeks. On top of that, the Vrykul that the titan Keepers created are very much like Vikings, even the accents, the Valkyr are the Valkiries, even Teldrassil, Vordrassil and Andrassil etc are based on the world tree Yggdrassil in Norse mythology.

I'm really not sure how you link them to the Greek Gods other than the fact that they were also a Pantheon.

...because they were created by the Titans? I literally said NOTHING about their names.

Titans come around.
Titans order the universe.
Titans create their children (Gods/Keepers)
Titans disappear (killed by the Gods/Sargeras)

You looked WAY too far into that. I'm not a bloody idiot; I know that the keepers' names are based off of Norse mythology. But, again, my comment had nothing to do with their nomenclature, only the nature of their existence.

[Kokolums]

Sargeras must have scoured the universe for the rest of the soul parts that didn't make it to Azeroth.

That doesn't feel right at all. You're telling me that Sargeras is powerful enough to scour the universe and find all the soul parts of the Pantheon, but he cannot scour the universe to find Azeroth? One of the soul parts even made it to Azeroth and was devoured by Wrathion. So if he could track them, they should have led Sargeras here by now. Why does he even need portals to reach Azeroth if he can do this?

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Killing them doesn't hurt anything. Ripping them and their roots out leaving a gaping wound is

Nothing was retconnned. You just lack comprehension.

I think the situation is that the Old Gods grow to enormous size and basically convert 30%-50% of the planet into their own biomass. Their tentacles reach high up into the Great Dark and if you looked at it from a moon or something, you see a deformed planet with a tentacled beast sitting on it. Removing it just leaves a deformed planet. What you really want to do is kill the old god and let the biomass decompose back into component parts and eventually rock and soil again.

[Deleted]

No they aren't? They are based on the Norse Gods, hence Odyn=Odin, Thorim=Thor, Loken=Loki, Freya=Freyja, Himdall=Heimdall, Helya=Hela etc. Nothing to do with the greeks. On top of that, the Vrykul that the titan Keepers created are very much like Vikings, even the accents, the Valkyr are the Valkiries, even Teldrassil, Vordrassil and Andrassil etc are based on the world tree Yggdrassil in Norse mythology.

I'm really not sure how you link them to the Greek Gods other than the fact that they were also a Pantheon.

Some of the Keepers are based on Norse mythology, and the Titans themselves on greek mythology, as is clearly evident by their attire and architecture.

This is because they, until Legion, were based in Northrend and their strongholds in the Storm Peaks. Ra-Den, also a keeper, was not based on Norse mythology because he oversaw the Titan's interest in Pandaria, and likewise his Mogu were also not inspired by Norse mythology. There's also the egyptian inspired forces in Uldum.

[Kallisto]

There's also the relationship between Odyn, Helya, and the val'kyr. In the Chronicle, Odyn was offended by the dragons being empowered when perfectly good defenders like him already existed, and decided to invent the val'kyr as his own army to prove that he could do it without the dragons. The val'kyr needed to be undead, however, and no one wanted to volunteer for that, so he forced people into it. Loken gave Helya a way out and she and the val'kyr eventually broke free and betrayed Odyn. In Legion, Odyn was always charged with creating an army and formed an army of Light val'kyr, which everyone seems to see as an honor to become. Loken sowed discord between Odyn and Helya, leading her to betray him and eventually forcing her to create the kvaldir to imitate Odyn, since it seems most of the val'kyr stayed with him instead of her. In fact, val'kyr didn't show up around Helya at all in Legion until the raid in 7.1, despite her having all of them (except the Spirit Healers) in the Chronicle, leading me to believe they realized the contradiction and tried to offset it at least a little.

I think a subtle but telling sign of this difference is that in the Chronicle, Helya is a victim all the way, even if she falls in with the wrong crowd due to it. In Legion, Helya is gleeful about her malice, and never once tries to justify her hatred of Odyn despite it being extremely understandable in the Chronicle. The closest she ever comes to anything resembling saying anything bad about Odyn outside of generic insults is "He... must not... win...", which anyone would say about their nemesis. Likewise, Xal'atath has comments about how Odyn's arrogance helped convince Helya to betray him, not the much more blatant fact that he murdered her and forced a curse upon her like in the Chronicle.

But near enough all the tales of Odyn in WoW right now come from the mouth of Odyn himself written down in stone. That's not exactly an unbiased source more like Myths Odyn put out because A) He didn't want his followers to know the truth or B) He's so delusional that's how he sees it as happening.

[chrisisvacant]

The titan thing, as mentioned, is an obvious one. Considering that whole section seemed to exist to explain how Wrathion got that vision and the whole "We must rebuild the final titan" quote, it seemed pretty explicit that the titan souls were on Azeroth. It also made it explicit how the titan's souls escaped, and how Sargeras absolutely had no idea it happened. There are ways to interpret the new lore as an expansion and continuation of that, but it still contradicts it as written.

The Chronicle also said that Sargeras recruited the eredar because he needed leaders to command the Legion, and that demons respawned naturally if killed outside the Nether or an otherwise heavily fel-saturated location. I don't know if the former is being contradicted directly, but since the latter concept is being replaced with the idea that the world-soul of Argus is what allows the Legion to respawn, it heavily implies that Argus was only important due to its world-soul, and not its people.

There's also the relationship between Odyn, Helya, and the val'kyr. In the Chronicle, Odyn was offended by the dragons being empowered when perfectly good defenders like him already existed, and decided to invent the val'kyr as his own army to prove that he could do it without the dragons. The val'kyr needed to be undead, however, and no one wanted to volunteer for that, so he forced people into it. Loken gave Helya a way out and she and the val'kyr eventually broke free and betrayed Odyn. In Legion, Odyn was always charged with creating an army and formed an army of Light val'kyr, which everyone seems to see as an honor to become. Loken sowed discord between Odyn and Helya, leading her to betray him and eventually forcing her to create the kvaldir to imitate Odyn, since it seems most of the val'kyr stayed with him instead of her. In fact, val'kyr didn't show up around Helya at all in Legion until the raid in 7.1, despite her having all of them (except the Spirit Healers) in the Chronicle, leading me to believe they realized the contradiction and tried to offset it at least a little.

I think a subtle but telling sign of this difference is that in the Chronicle, Helya is a victim all the way, even if she falls in with the wrong crowd due to it. In Legion, Helya is gleeful about her malice, and never once tries to justify her hatred of Odyn despite it being extremely understandable in the Chronicle. The closest she ever comes to anything resembling saying anything bad about Odyn outside of generic insults is "He... must not... win...", which anyone would say about their nemesis. Likewise, Xal'atath has comments about how Odyn's arrogance helped convince Helya to betray him, not the much more blatant fact that he murdered her and forced a curse upon her like in the Chronicle.

The naaru are already on their way to being contradicted. The Chronicle describes them as just another lifeform that came into being naturally as Light exploded into the new universe. However, with the introduction of Prime Naaru, the idea that Elune (whoever she is) might have consciously created the Prime Naaru, and that Xe'ra may not be quite what she seems, are already setting up a potential contradiction of the origin given in the Chronicle.

Every argument you bring up can be handwaved with one word: nuance.

It has been a long time since the events that sent Helya away which clearly changes a person's mentality and obviously Odyn has differing methods of creating val'kyr. On top of that, the whole concept of "ascending" in various ways has become much more accepted by the normally-brutish and stubborn masses under his rule. What was stated in Chronicle was true back then - that doesn't mean they exist in a vacuum and never change in the future. Furthermore, Xal'atath speaks much like an old god does and the word "arrogance" can mean a lot of things. One could say it was arrogant of Odyn to think only his people could inherit the power of the titans, which is what led him to do what he did.

Obviously Sargeras found the eredar and then happened to realize the Argus world soul also existed on this planet. Yay! Now he has an intelligent race endemic to a world possessing a titan soul within. He spent countless years scouring the universe for this sort of jackpot. They are not mutually exclusive.

The demonic respawn issue is clearly related to proximity to certain environments and why that proximity to those environments has an effect is unclear but obviously related to the Argus world soul and its connection to fel magic. We do not yet have full clarity on the relationship between fel magic and Argus, but considering all Titans have a title that is related to their inherent abilities, fel magic is a devouring force and has a deep connection to the one we know as The Unmaker. Not much of a stretch at all.

[elderu]

He could have demons search for them since it takes less power for them to be teleported/summoned places. Although I agree it's kind of shaky.

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Wasn't there a Dev confirmation somewhere that says killing Yogg contributed to the Cataclysm?

Yea it's a weird quote. Unspecific. They were asked about the implications of killing an Old God, and why nothing bad happened when we took out Yogg, and they replied:

"And what do you think caused the Cataclysm?"

... Idk. Deathwing? Corrupted from N'zoth.. Something they said right during the Cataclysm lore panel. And it was his first mention..

So if you ask me? He just means that Yogg-Saron's death was a change in power from one Old God to another. And N'zoth started staging his masterplan once Yogg was gone.

[chrisisvacant]

Yea it's a weird quote. Unspecific. They were asked about the implications of killing an Old God, and why nothing bad happened when we took out Yogg, and they replied:

"And what do you think caused the Cataclysm?"

... Idk. Deathwing? Corrupted from N'zoth.. Something they said right during the Cataclysm lore panel. And it was his first mention..

So if you ask me? He just means that Yogg-Saron's death was a change in power from one Old God to another. And N'zoth started staging his masterplan once Yogg was gone.

This actually makes a ton of sense. People love to search for linear equations in lore, but it is known that the Old Gods do work in concert with each other to some degree. N'Zoth sensing Yogg's failure is absolutely reason enough for him to trigger his death machine dragon demi-god.

[anaxie]

He could have demons search for them since it takes less power for them to be teleported/summoned places. Although I agree it's kind of shaky.

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Wasn't there a Dev confirmation somewhere that says killing Yogg contributed to the Cataclysm?

Ok? DeThwing destroying the earth pillar = killing old god. Not related

[Katie45]

Ok? DeThwing destroying the earth pillar = killing old god. Not related

There was a dev that cata was also caused by killing yogg

[Aquamonkey]

Who is the next Old God? Doomsday from putting down all the Old Gods? Not seeing much besides Cataclysm, but that's really with Deathwing.
CM: Or is it? You haven't seen who signs Deathwing's paychecks yet.
[...]
AA: Have you played any Cataclysm?
CM: You know, like where the world blows up? ...because of the Old Gods.
AA: You might, if you're astute enough, see his name or its name uttered in a few places in Cataclysm... but it's out there.
CM: You wanna know what it is?
AA: N'Zoth.
CM: The third Old God is N'Zoth. And we've suggested directly that he has was the critter responsible for the spark of the Emerald Nightmare, and he has all sorts of other weird shit going on. So, he's a real problem. (BlizzCon 2010)

[anaxie]

A CM said it

CMs are proven to be fucking idiots.

Yoggs death is no relation to Deathwing coming up. Deathwing came up because that was the chosen expansion.

Killing old gods does not hurt the planet in any way. Thats the argument being made. It doesnt happen that way

Nevermind the quote is fucking 2010

[Aquamonkey]

A CM said it

CMs are proven to be fucking idiots.

Yoggs death is no relation to Deathwing coming up. Deathwing came up because that was the chosen expansion.

Killing old gods does not hurt the planet in any way. Thats the argument being made. It doesnt happen that way

Nevermind the quote is fucking 2010

Not a CM, as in a Community Manager. The CM, as in the Chris Metzen.

[anaxie]

Not a CM, as in a Community Manager. The CM, as in the Chris Metzen.

Three words

Isnt falstaad dead?

The argument is killing old gods is bad. Deathwing would of risen regardless of yogg saron being killed or not. If the hour of twilight got sped up because of it is irrelevant. It was going to happen anyway

[chrisisvacant]

Three words

Isnt falstaad dead?

The argument is killing old gods is bad. Deathwing would of risen regardless of yogg saron being killed or not. If the hour of twilight got sped up because of it is irrelevant. It was going to happen anyway

What may or may not have happened should Yogg have not failed is ambiguous at best. In fact, the possibilities are absolutely endless. Just because a plan was set in motion doesn't mean it would've gotten off the ground. Fact is, had Yogg succeeded in his plan, Deathwing's eruption would've been unnecessary and, frankly, probably interrupted by Yogg himself as the Old Gods are well-known for infighting.

[FelPlague]

A CM said it

CMs are proven to be fucking idiots.

Yoggs death is no relation to Deathwing coming up. Deathwing came up because that was the chosen expansion.

Killing old gods does not hurt the planet in any way. Thats the argument being made. It doesnt happen that way

Nevermind the quote is fucking 2010

LOLOLOLOL did you read it said "blizzcon" at the bottem?

[anaxie]

LOLOLOLOL did you read it said "blizzcon" at the bottem?

did you read the part where its fucking irrelevant where it came from because of how the events happened?

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What may or may not have happened should Yogg have not failed is ambiguous at best. In fact, the possibilities are absolutely endless. Just because a plan was set in motion doesn't mean it would've gotten off the ground. Fact is, had Yogg succeeded in his plan, Deathwing's eruption would've been unnecessary and, frankly, probably interrupted by Yogg himself as the Old Gods are well-known for infighting.

okay again. Deathwing erupting is not a byproduct of KILLING the old gods. its an entirely different being not comparable to what happened the way Yasharraj died.

Deathwing caused earthquakes by shattering the pillar of earth in deepholm and coming up THROUGH the mealstrom.

Yasharajj left a CRATER and opened up hallow "veins" where his tendrils used to go that caused the world soul to bleed out heavily.

Deathwing shattered the earth pillar to escape. Yogg Saron Dying didnt shatter the earth pillar.

Deathwing went on his world tour of destruction because he was a powerful behemoth, not because Yogg Sarons Death caused firestorms to randomly appear.\

This is the topic and if none of you can grasp that then so be it. You must be confused by elementary school writing.