Why there must always be a Lich King (lore discussion)

[therealstegblob]

Okay so after seeing yet another person making a thread to ask why there must always be a Lich King I figured I would just make my own thread to quickly address the issue. Please spread this word around and work together to get everyone to stop asking this fucking question. Let's begin.

This whole issue came to be during the post-fight cinematic for the Lich King encounter way back in ICC. Terenas speaks the fateful line: "Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world. There must always be a Lich King.", and thus 10 years of people asking WHY DOES THAT MEAN??? became a thing.

So first of all, The Burning Legion brought the Plague of Undeath to Azeroth. You got the plague, you died, you turned into zombie and Ner'zhul the Lich King used his psychic power to take over your brain and make you have abomination orgies or whatever.

Basically, it works like this (more or less), anyone with enough power and knowledge or whatever can use Void magic to turn dead people into zombie sex slaves. You raise a ghoul then you telepathically enslave it. The Lich King, thanks to the powers granted to him via the Legion, has immense control over undead. Because of the Lich King, random joe-shmoes can't make their own undead armies and control them; the Lich King would simply wrest control from them.

So, No Lich King = Anyone can fuck around with making undead minions. Anyone fucking around with undead minions = A problem.

In fact, after Arthas' defeat we immediately begin seeing problems with this in Cataclysm. Sylvanas begins raising her own Forsaken, Darkmaster Gandling of Scholomance fame is now raising his own army in the Andorhal questline and there's that one boss dude in the updated Scarlet Monastery that's raising undead willy-nilly like an asshole. Bolvar didn't have as perfect a grip on the Scourge as the original Lich King did, and we saw the ramifications of that via more people gaining more power over enslaving the undead.

There were moments when the Lich King's power was compromised, as well. In Warcraft 3, the Lich King was suffering a feigning of power which resulted in Sylvanas and thousands of other undead breaking free of his grasp, who all became the Forsaken. In Wrath of the Lich King, after suffering a defeat at Light's Hope in the Death Knight starting quests, the Death Knights were able to break free from the mental grasp of Arthas.

To summarize: The Lich King's mental control of the undead prevents people from making their own undead minions; or undead armies. It's better to have the control of the undead centralized to a single place than it is to worry about any aspiring mage creating his personal zombie army. Now please stop asking why we need a Lich King.

[Hobbidaggy]

To add to this it would mean that the scourge wouldn't have anything controlling them essentially becoming a ravaging horde that wouldn't stop and would just keep advancing until everything was dead in its path. It's difficult to defeat an army when they are travelling as a horde that doesn't stop or show any sign of holding back.

Yes the combined efforts of the people could stop it but the casualties would be great and there would be scourge necromancers also raising the newly slain or lich's floating around raising their own armies to kill off the living.

Basically there needed to be someone in command to keep the scourge in check a little as well

[DesMephisto]

If we can kill Arthas, I think we can kill the scourge.

[Rafoel]

No, that explanation doesn't make sense. Necromancy was a thing far before Lich King. The thing is a "joeshmoe" would struggle to control a single undead, and even very powerful mages would struggle to control enough undead to be a threat to anything or anybody. Even this "Darkmaster" Gadling doesn't control all those undead by himself - he has dozens of helpers and even more apprentices. It's ridiculous to think multiple "private" undead armies were the threat Terenas was talking about. No, Terenas was explicitly speaking about Scourge free of any control, Scourge running rampant.

[Piamonte]

Is not void Magic, is death magic

[MatthiasLehner]

What I wonder is, if Scourge is always a potential threat, and Bolvar was worried about outer forces like Legion to take control of it again, then why not just dismantle it when he has it under control? Make them destroy each other, until its remaining force reaches 0. This is basically like disarming a nuclear weapon, but without any competitors. Bolvar basically looks like he's holding on to it "just in case" he needs to use it.

[Piamonte]

What I wonder is, if Scourge is always a potential threat, and Bolvar was worried about outer forces like Legion to take control of it again, then why not just dismantle it when he has it under control? Make them destroy each other, until its remaining force reaches 0. This is basically like disarming a nuclear weapon, but without any competitors. Bolvar basically looks like he's holding on to it "just in case" he needs to use it.

What people seems to forget a lot when discussing this subject is that to this day Bolvar doesnt have total control of the scourge, the quests in cataclysm reveal that the scourge in the plaguelands now functions independently of the Lich king, this is because after he worn the crown he had to get use to his new powers, thats why he remained dormant for so many years, in that time the helmet managed to corrupt him and now he just doesnt want to destroy the scourge. In other words, the helm is like a trap, you can wear it and try to help the world by destroying the scourge but before you got the chance to do it, you will be already corrupted by it.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

The Scourge in a way is more of a threat to Azeroth than even Kil'jaeden's Legion. The Legion has stronger pound for pound troops and a bigger military but we can at least fight them normally. The demons kills us and we die, some may get captured and tortured but that's it. And despise their power, we can at least close their portals and end the invasion. Where as the Scourge would just resurrect every one they killed into a undead version of themselves. Stronger heros and champions would become powerful servants for the Scourge. I'm not counting Sargeras and his eventual Dark Pantheon of course. The Scourge however are all on Azeroth already and Bolvar has total control of all Scourge by the time Legion hits. So the Ebon Blades were wise to take Bolvar's offer as the Scourge if let loose would be a even greater threat than even the Legion.

[Aquamonkey]

Okay so after seeing yet another person making a thread to ask why there must always be a Lich King I figured I would just make my own thread to quickly address the issue. Please spread this word around and work together to get everyone to stop asking this fucking question. Let's begin.

Jaylock made another troll thread.

To summarize: The Lich King's mental control of the undead prevents people from making their own undead minions; or undead armies. It's better to have the control of the undead centralized to a single place than it is to worry about any aspiring mage creating his personal zombie army. Now please stop asking why we need a Lich King.

This is false. The Lich King only had control of undead created directly by himself. The undead created by Plague of Undeath count as being created by himself even though it was spread by others. PoU originally started as psychically controlled spell which bound the spirits and thoughts of those raised to himself. Kel'Thuzad placed the LK's plague-energies into cauldrons for transport to Lordaeron.

The LK can't just take control of random undead everywhere. In fact, a powerful enough necromancer can take control of the LK's undead. This happened in WC3 with the nathrezim. There are tons of undead that the LK couldn't just usurp control over, like the Knights of the Ebon Blade, Forsaken, and the undead raised by the Forsaken (even before WotLK).

[therealstegblob]

This is false. The Lich King only had control of undead created directly by himself.

This is actually never directly stated anywhere in the lore (so far as I know). Yes, he only maintained power over those directly created (somehow) by him, but that doesn't mean he can't take over mindless undead.

The LK can't just take control of random undead everywhere. In fact, a powerful enough necromancer can take control of the LK's undead. This happened in WC3 with the nathrezim. There are tons of undead that the LK couldn't just usurp control over, like the Knights of the Ebon Blade, Forsaken, and the undead raised by the Forsaken (even before WotLK).

Varimathras, Balnazzar and Detheroc only took control of the mindless undead once the Lich King's powers were waning from the damage Illidan caused. The more capable and powerful of these undead regained their original memories/consciousness and became the Forsaken. The Ebon Blade, similarly, regained control of themselves when Arthas' powers waned during the battle at Light's Hope (it also helped that they realized Arthas was using them as expendable pawns).

By all seeming accounts, the Lich King can assume control over mindless undead. In fact, if I'm not misrecalling, prior to Cataclysm one of the Forsaken starter quests had you killing 'mindless undead' with the quest giver saying something like "if we don't put them down the Lich King could assume control of them again".

The Lich King is an important central control point for mindless undead, and you'd have plenty of necromancers and other mages assuming control over undead or creating their own without a Lich King present.

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No, that explanation doesn't make sense. Necromancy was a thing far before Lich King. The thing is a "joeshmoe" would struggle to control a single undead, and even very powerful mages would struggle to control enough undead to be a threat to anything or anybody. Even this "Darkmaster" Gadling doesn't control all those undead by himself - he has dozens of helpers and even more apprentices. It's ridiculous to think multiple "private" undead armies were the threat Terenas was talking about. No, Terenas was explicitly speaking about Scourge free of any control, Scourge running rampant.

The scourge running rampant would be a problem, since an uncontrolled scourge would just zergrush people and would be an army that fights without any reasonable end (and therefore would be reckless and cause great damage before being stopped), but the fact that anyone could start raising undead and assuming control of unaffiliated mindless undead is a huge problem. The powers of undeath hardly existed on Azeroth prior to the Lich King; who is to say how long it'd be until people get better and better at raising and controlling undead?

You underplay Gandling's power quite a bit. He was raising undead by himself in the Andorhal questline.

[Aquamonkey]

Varimathras, Balnazzar and Detheroc only took control of the mindless undead once the Lich King's powers were waning from the damage Illidan caused. The more capable and powerful of these undead regained their original memories/consciousness and became the Forsaken. The Ebon Blade, similarly, regained control of themselves when Arthas' powers waned during the battle at Light's Hope (it also helped that they realized Arthas was using them as expendable pawns).

Not talking about when the LK was weakened. I mean when Archmonde popped into Dalaran and said the nathrezim were in control of the Scourge now.

Archimonde: Very well, Tichondrius. Since the Lich King is of no further use to me, you dreadlords will now command the Scourge.

Forsaken in Vanilla were Scourge that were just then broken free from the LK's control.

"I am Mordo, the caretaker of the crypt of Deathknell. And you are the Lich King's slave no more. [...]I see the confusion on your face. Let me try to explain our... situation... to you. We have been freed from the control of the Lich King by our new leader, Lady Sylvanas."

There are mindless undead that the Forsaken created during their plague experiments that the LK didn't control.

By all seeming accounts, the Lich King can assume control over mindless undead. In fact, if I'm not misrecalling, prior to Cataclysm one of the Forsaken starter quests had you killing 'mindless undead' with the quest giver saying something like "if we don't put them down the Lich King could assume control of them again".

Those are Scourge. They're called mindless because they have no free will and are under the LK's control. It's not that they are mindless with no master, running feral; that's post-Cata.

"The northern part of the village has become overrun with the Mindless Ones, and they must be destroyed. Destroy them, show them no mercy, our former brothers and sisters as they might be. The Fallen are nothing but The Lich King's slaves. It is unfortunate that the Scourge cannot be brought into the fold, their large numbers would be useful in the battles ahead. But they will not join us, so we have no choice but to destroy them."

"The Rattlecage skeletons, more mindless minions of the Lich King, are a tougher foe than the zombies you have faced thus far."

The Lich King is an important central control point for mindless undead, and you'd have plenty of necromancers and other mages assuming control over undead or creating their own without a Lich King present.

Mindless undead is any undead without free will. Your assertion was that the LK can just take over control of any mindless undead regardless of who is currently controlling it.

[therealstegblob]

Not talking about when the LK was weakened. I mean when Archmonde popped into Dalaran and said the nathrezim were in control of the Scourge now.

Right? The Lich King's masters assumed power from the Lich King and granted it to the Nathrezim. I don't see how this implies the Lich King can't take over mindless undead, though.

Forsaken in Vanilla were Scourge that were just then broken free from the LK's control.

Yeah, they're part of the WC3 Forsaken that were still re-assuming control of themselves in the Lich King's waning of power and then his almost total absence outside of Northrend. The undead too weak to re-assume their former memories became Mindless Undead. The quest dialogue you link even expresses that a Forsaken could become a Mindless Undead itself if its wits aren't sharp enough. This is exactly akin to the whole "every blood elf is/was in danger of becoming a withered".

Whether or not 'Mindless Undead' actually means 'slave of the Lich King' or 'feral undead' is up for debate, there's conflicting dialogue for either argument and I don't think Blizzard has ever said anything that actually clears it up one way or the other.

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah, they're part of the WC3 Forsaken that were still re-assuming control of themselves in the Lich King's waning of power and then his almost total absence outside of Northrend.

They weren't reassuming control of themselves. Sylvanas broke them free. It says that right in the quest. The WC3 thing was they broke free due to the LK's weakening and then Sylvanas rallied them.

The undead too weak to re-assume their former memories became Mindless Undead. The quest dialogue you link even expresses that a Forsaken could become a Mindless Undead itself if its wits aren't sharp enough. This is exactly akin to the whole "every blood elf is/was in danger of becoming a withered".

Again, you're conflating post-Cata events. In Vanilla, the undead too weak to break free remained Scourge. The Forsaken called them mindless because they were still Scourge. Other examples of "Mindless" undead are in Stratholme and Northrend, also part of the Scourge.

Post-Cata, undead too weak to handle resurrection by Sylvanas' val'kyr remained mindless and feral, under nobody's control.

"The val'kyr raise hundreds of corpses every day. Agatha raised you just a few moments ago. Not all are as lucky as you, however. Some maintain their free will, but live in constant fear and confusion. They usually run off into the woods, cowering at their own reflections. Others lose their minds completely, shambling about aimlessly. They often turn to violence, and must be destroyed."

Whether or not 'Mindless Undead' actually means 'slave of the Lich King' or 'feral undead' is up for debate, there's conflicting dialogue for either argument and I don't think Blizzard has ever said anything that actually clears it up one way or the other.

They mean different things at different times. Pre-Cata, Mindless Undead were those under the LK's control. Post-Cata, it includes feral undead.

[sam86]

We have a direct answer from blizzard at least that Arthas was holding the scourge might from wiping azeroth, and if he did unleash scourge full might we would have world of zombiecraft (or undeadcraft, can't recall exact answer)
Yes they did say that in a Q&A, they also said that 'as for why Arthas held back, we can speculate'
As for 'why there must be a lich king', i find an undead ghost saying that phrase make me seriously question how valuable that information is, since u know, he is literally under lich king domain and there is a 'tiny' chance he might said that while he is under lich king control to preserve his king

[therealstegblob]

They weren't reassuming control of themselves. Sylvanas broke them free. It says that right in the quest. The WC3 thing was they broke free due to the LK's weakening and then Sylvanas rallied them.

While the quest words it as "Sylvanas set you free", they're regaining control of themselves because the Lich King is no longer controlling them. We can assume "Sylvanas set you free" is either bad phrasing on the part of the guy who wrote the dialogue, or perhaps the NPC is merely suggesting (unknowingly or knowingly) that Sylvanas somehow had more to do with it than she really did. You have to remember, after all, that early Vanilla WoW lore was "the forsaken are mostly evil and barely even allied with the Horde and the leaders of the forsaken are also evil etc etc".

Again, you're conflating post-Cata events. In Vanilla, the undead too weak to break free remained Scourge. The Forsaken called them mindless because they were still Scourge. Other examples of "Mindless" undead are in Stratholme and Northrend, also part of the Scourge.

Nah, I don't think so. The mindless undead hanging around the Forsaken starting area were likely feral undead, or were simply in an aimless stupor with no direction being given to them. They certainly had no legible will of their own, which is the main point.

They mean different things at different times. Pre-Cata, Mindless Undead were those under the LK's control. Post-Cata, it includes feral undead.

I don't think you're making enough of an argument to represent this as total fact. To me, it remains vague enough that we could assume feral undead were a thing even while the Lich King was around.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes they did say that in a Q&A, they also said that 'as for why Arthas held back, we can speculate'

They said that because they knew people weren't paying attention to the story. His pre-Wrath Scourge invasion was to taunt everyone to come to ICC. He wanted only Azeroth's strongest champions to reach him in ICC so he could kill us and res us into his army. It was for his amusement to make us fall to damnation the way he had.

It's plainly stated during the encounter.

The Lich King casts Fury of Frostmourne, killing all players at once.
The Lich King yells: No questions remain unanswered. No doubts linger. You ARE Azeroth's greatest champions. You overcame every challenge I laid before you. My mightiest servants have fallen before your relentless onslaught... your unbridled fury...
The Lich King yells: Is it truly righteousness that drives you? I wonder...
The Lich King turns to address Tirion.
The Lich King yells: You trained them well, Fordring. You delivered the greatest fighting force this world has ever known... right into my hands - exactly as I intended! You shall be rewarded for your unwitting sacrifice.
Arthas centers himself in the middle of the platform, turns his back on the block of ice and begins to cast Raise Dead, Frostmourne raised into the air.
The Lich King yells: Watch now as I raise them from the dead to become masters of the Scourge. They will shroud this world in chaos and destruction. Azeroth's fall will come at their hands -- and you will be the first to die.
The Lich King laughs.
The Lich King yells: I delight in the irony.

And also the WotLK trailer:

In the end, all that awaits you is death. Only then will you understand you have been following in my footsteps all along. So come then, you heroes. Come in all your power and glory! For in the final hour, all must serve the one true king.

Also WoG:

So as we were talking about the Lich King and the nature of this expansion set, imagine the Lich King has done something despicable to both the Alliance and the Horde. The powers-that-be decided, "Alright we're sending troops. Let's rally some expeditions. We're going to go take it to him. We know he's up there. He's mocking us. Let's go get him." The basic psychology is imagine that he's planned this all along. He's got the fishing pole, "reel 'em in." This is what he's wanted all along. Because relative to Arthas' experience, he was the weapon of his greatest enemy. The harder he tried to fight the good fight and save his people, the quicker he walked right into the bad guy's plan and the quicker he became, ultimately, the weapon of the bad guy. It was Arthas that went home and killed his dad and Scourged out his kingdom. He was the hammer that dropped. It wasn't ultimately the Scourge—ultimately, it wasn't the armies of the dead that made it happen, it was the big hero that made it happen. So in the same way... So to kinda wrap it up, the idea is that Arthas may in fact have precipitated this whole thing. Because he thinks that using you guys against your own cities is actually pretty funny. He can probably mobilize an army of the dead anytime he wants. All he's gotta do is unleash the Plague on Orgrimmar, Teldrassil. You can argue that he can do that whenever. But I think that he gets a big, big kick out of you guys doing what he did. So, that sounds really compelling and is largely the psychology we're trying to base a lot of our questlines on. (BlizzCon2007)

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While the quest words it as "Sylvanas set you free", they're regaining control of themselves because the Lich King is no longer controlling them. We can assume "Sylvanas set you free" is either bad phrasing on the part of the guy who wrote the dialogue, or perhaps the NPC is merely suggesting (unknowingly or knowingly) that Sylvanas somehow had more to do with it than she really did. You have to remember, after all, that early Vanilla WoW lore was "the forsaken are mostly evil and barely even allied with the Horde and the leaders of the forsaken are also evil etc etc".

You can speculate all you want, but the literal words of the quest are that you just woke up and that Sylvanas freed you. This is happening 3 years after TFT. This is completely different from the group that broke free during TFT. Those broke free themselves, and Sylvanas rallied them. Sylvanas had no part in freeing them from the Lich King's control.

Nah, I don't think so. The mindless undead hanging around the Forsaken starting area were likely feral undead, or were simply in an aimless stupor with no direction being given to them. They certainly had no legible will of their own, which is the main point.

The quest explicitly says those mindless undead in Vanilla are part of the Scourge...

The ones there in Cata are feral who failed at the val'kyr resurrection and lost their minds. Again, this is something explicitly stated by the quest.

[therealstegblob]

You can speculate all you want, but the literal words of the quest are that you just woke up and that Sylvanas freed you. This is happening 3 years after TFT. This is completely different from the group that broke free during TFT. Those broke free themselves, and Sylvanas rallied them. Sylvanas had no part in freeing them from the Lich King's control.

Right. That's exactly what I said. So, uh? What are you arguing?

The quest explicitly says those mindless undead in Vanilla are part of the Scourge...

The ones there in Cata are feral who failed at the val'kyr resurrection and lost their minds. Again, this is something explicitly stated by the quest.

The quest just says they're part of the Scourge, whether or not Arthas held any direct control over them at the moment is debatable, since they were also mindless.

[Aquamonkey]

Right. That's exactly what I said. So, uh? What are you arguing?

The LK is literally controlling undead throughout the area. It's not that they got free will because the LK isn't controlling them anymore. The LK isn't controlling them anymore because they had just been freed from his control.

The quest just says they're part of the Scourge, whether or not Arthas held any direct control over them at the moment is debatable, since they were also mindless.

WTF... They are the same thing. Scourge undead are under the control of the LK. It also explicitly says that those mindless undead are under the LK's control. Did you not even read the quests?

"The northern part of the village has become overrun with the Mindless Ones, and they must be destroyed. Destroy them, show them no mercy, our former brothers and sisters as they might be. The Fallen are nothing but The Lich King's slaves. It is unfortunate that the Scourge cannot be brought into the fold, their large numbers would be useful in the battles ahead. But they will not join us, so we have no choice but to destroy them."

"The Rattlecage skeletons, more mindless minions of the Lich King, are a tougher foe than the zombies you have faced thus far."

[therealstegblob]

Right. Well, not only are you off-point on what I was saying (you appear to be confused with what I meant when I was talking about pre-Cataclysm Forsaken) but now you're just starting to go nanners, so whatever. From my point of view, the scourge in the Forsaken starting area are feral undead.

[Pawstruck]

I want people to know how idiotic this lore is so they can stop saying "BUT MAH LORE" when talking about WoW's good points.

Take away an army's general, let it "run rampant," and tell me if it's STRONGER or WEAKER. A mindless horde of hungry zombies would be incredibly EASY to destroy compared to an organized force guided by intelligence.