Make Outlaw Great Again

[Deleted]

Roll the Bones is literally the reason I dropped Outlaw. I love the theme, I love using swords, I don't love praying for particular buffs and just being garbage if it doesn't come up.

[Nospmas]

I will never consider RTB part of a rotation. As far as I am concerned you ignore it 99% of the time unless it is TB, or Broadsides. With Poison procs you actually have to pay attention.

What? a poison bomb proc does nothing to change your rotation so there is really no need to track it or pay attention to it for that matter (other then yelling at tanks not to pull the mobs out of it). RTB can change your rotation depending on what you get.

Honestly Outlaw at the start of legion was playable because even if you didn't get lucky six rolls you could still compete with other players numbers. The rare time you did get lucky and get a few six rolls you ended up blowing people out of the water.

Eventually then nerfed the numbers so much you need to be lucky and get those six rolls to just do comparable damage to other classes. All they really have to do if they want to keep the rng is bring the numbers back up so that when your not lucky you can still compete, but when you do get lucky you top the meters.

If you want an example of a class like this just look at warcraft logs for frost mages. If you look at say 90 percentile level they're usually in the 5ish range, but when they do get lucky and get lots of procs...well look at max percentile it's usually a frost mage there for single target fights.

[shaunika123]

With Poison procs you actually have to pay attention.

i wonder how many questionmarks is too many

[Deleted]

Wow, so many people here obviously haven't played outlaw for a loooong time.

All rolls but Broadsides and True Bearing are weak? Like what? I didn't reroll since they added loaded dice.

That's not to say the class has no problems, but RtB is only a minor one. The big problem is scaling. Blizz could start by giving us better weapon damage scaling for example. Since argus hit all other classes in our raid got a huge boost in dps from the higher weapon levels. All but me. My damage barely changed. This is outlaw's problem, not RtB. Aside from that we have boring talents, thats it.

[Ilir]

Killing spree should be baseline.

Also, RtB is fine.

The only issue with outlaw atm is fucking low damage and no scaling.

Buff the damage, suddenly outlaw is good again.

[Mafic]

What? a poison bomb proc does nothing to change your rotation so there is really no need to track it or pay attention to it for that matter (other then yelling at tanks not to pull the mobs out of it). RTB can change your rotation depending on what you get.

Honestly Outlaw at the start of legion was playable because even if you didn't get lucky six rolls you could still compete with other players numbers. The rare time you did get lucky and get a few six rolls you ended up blowing people out of the water.

Eventually then nerfed the numbers so much you need to be lucky and get those six rolls to just do comparable damage to other classes. All they really have to do if they want to keep the rng is bring the numbers back up so that when your not lucky you can still compete, but when you do get lucky you top the meters.

If you want an example of a class like this just look at warcraft logs for frost mages. If you look at say 90 percentile level they're usually in the 5ish range, but when they do get lucky and get lots of procs...well look at max percentile it's usually a frost mage there for single target fights.

Poison bomb actually matters because you are always watching your positioning.

Outlaw damage tuning will not fix the spec.

Why? Because most of the buffs are garbage.

Grand Melee = Garbage
Jolly Roger = Garbage
Buried Treasure = Garbage

Only three buffs "change" how you play

Shark Infested Waters
Broadsides
True Bearing.

The spec has low damage and is UNFUN to play at the moment.

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Wow, so many people here obviously haven't played outlaw for a loooong time.

All rolls but Broadsides and True Bearing are weak? Like what? I didn't reroll since they added loaded dice.

That's not to say the class has no problems, but RtB is only a minor one. The big problem is scaling. Blizz could start by giving us better weapon damage scaling for example. Since argus hit all other classes in our got a huge boost in dps from the higher weapon levels. All but me. My damage barely changed. This is outlaw's problem, not RtB. Aside from that we have boring talents, thats it.

Current RTB buffs...the vast majority are weak and you don't notice them at all. Simply put without a two dice roll the spec is a snoozefest.

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Roll the Bones is literally the reason I dropped Outlaw. I love the theme, I love using swords, I don't love praying for particular buffs and just being garbage if it doesn't come up.

Damage tuning can be increased but many people would still not play the spec.

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i wonder how many questionmarks is too many

Your idea of good RNG is the abomination of early Legion Sub.

I am glad the devs finally listened to other players than those happy with RNG casino game play.

That is why Sub is actually a playable spec again.

To make Outlaw playable again it needs to move away from casino gameplay.

Casino gameplay has no place in a MMORPG. Anyone that says RNG like this is good doesn't understand MMORPGs. Period.

[Kadenzza]

To keep the hype of the 5/6 rolls they could maybe just introduce a cooldown which would give you all buffs for a limited time.

This is actually a pretty interesting idea. If they made SnD baseline, and made RtB a cooldown that was pretty much guaranteed to give a lot of buffs, that may help things a bit. Numbers would still need to be tuned upwards, but there would be a lot less variance even if they maintained some RNG in RtB (such as each combo point rolls one die, with a 2/3 or 5/6 chance of getting an individual random buff, so chance at 6 buffs with a 6 combo point RtB).

[Nospmas]

Poison bomb actually matters because you are always watching your positioning.

Outlaw damage tuning will not fix the spec.

Why? Because most of the buffs are garbage.

Grand Melee = Garbage
Jolly Roger = Garbage
Buried Treasure = Garbage

Only three buffs "change" how you play

Shark Infested Waters
Broadsides
True Bearing.

The spec has low damage and is UNFUN to play at the moment.

Just curious but have you actually played a rogue? Also can you really say "most of the buffs are garbage" when half change the rotation, Most implies a majority. Also where have you ever watched your position in regards to poison bomb? Poison bomb procs under the mob you are attacking it doesn't matter your positon and it's not like you can plan out when it's going to proc since you can get half a dozen procs in a fight or zero.

As of right now with the proper gear set up slice and dice is ahead of RTB anyway, so why are we not seeing everybody swap to outlaw? cause the damage is lower then the other rogue specs, not the rng.

[shaunika123]

Your idea of good RNG is the abomination of early Legion Sub.

I am glad the devs finally listened to other players than those happy with RNG casino game play.

That is why Sub is actually a playable spec again.

To make Outlaw playable again it needs to move away from casino gameplay.

Casino gameplay has no place in a MMORPG. Anyone that says RNG like this is good doesn't understand MMORPGs. Period.

is there something above strawman?

because i dont remember EVER saying anything about sub

a maintenance buff that slightly alters how you play every time and actually forces you to react to it, is good rng

a randomly proccing aoe that you have ZERO control over, and are at the mercy of it proccing when adds are out is bad rng. you dont play differently you do your rotation, and it either procs or it doesnt that's poison bomb.

Why? Because most of the buffs are garbage.

Grand Melee = Garbage
Jolly Roger = Garbage
Buried Treasure = Garbage

Only three buffs "change" how you play

Shark Infested Waters
Broadsides
True Bearing.

The spec has low damage and is UNFUN to play at the moment.

50% is by definition not "most"
also jolly and buried also change how you play, since you have to cast more pistol shots or more abilities in general, hell even the fact that grand melee gives leech occasionally matters

it being unfun, is entirely subjective, it might be UNFUN for you

and the low damage has literally nothing to do with how the class plays, that's just bad tuning

[Varolyn]

People seem to confuse numbers RnG with gameplay RnG. Poison bomb is just numbers RnG, RtB is both gameplay and numbers RnG, and the bad kind of gameplay rng. I do not think poison bomb is great design, but it doesn't change your rotation in anyway. With RtB, however, you either keep re-rolling until you get good rolls, or feel like crap with what you are given. If you take away a damage meter, you hardly even notice poison bomb, while even without the damage meter, you notice bad rolls. That is the issue with RtB.

Ironically enough, assassination is actually quite average when it comes damage variance, sitting at only 4.2%. Meanwhile RtB's sits at 7.3% damage variance. So yes, RtB's still has way higher RnG that assassin except in maybe heavy AoE.

[ymirsson]

. If you take away a damage meter, you hardly even notice poison bomb, while even without the damage meter, you notice bad rolls. That is the issue with RtB.

How would a bad roll differ from a good one? Without a DPS meter, there can be no comparison, unless you factor differences in energy reg.
Apart from that, of course you do notice if you roll buffs you percieve as inferior, because RtB is an active skill, whereas Poison bomb is passive damage. And unlike RtB, your poison bomb can be foiled even by other players.

And even further apart from that, to keep this away from a "who has it worst contest", both things are in dire need of polishing.

[Muguin]

So currently 8/9 mythic played outlaw the entire expansion and been on the top of the spec every tier(i know, i know) i think you guys are missing the point on how to fix outlaw for THIS EXPAC. Right now with the current SND build the thing we are lacking is just numbers, we simply don't hit hard enough. There are a couple ways to fix this:

1. Just another flat over all numbers increase. Nothing cool there i wont complain but its meh

2. A Frond esque CD. Not another rng one but an on use cd. Make it a minute CD off of Restless Blades cd list cause that would be OP. Could be baseline or have Alacrity base and then have this take alacrity's spot. Could call it Thirst for Blood tying it back to Talgath's curse on the dread blades making the wielder bloodthirsty.

3. Adding a DMG% mod to AR. This one while not adding a new mechanic allows for RTB with TB to be more viable as well as shifting Relic/legend priorities around as well. To make T20 obsolete in new patch make it only affect the first part of AR not the Tier bonus. As to what % i want to say 25% but without a sure testing method i wouldn't be able to say.

4. not a direct DPS increase but we've almost all said it make Grappling baseline. Replace it with two charges of sprint or 2 hooks.

Just a couple thoughts to make outlaw relevant THIS EXPAC. As far as what to do for next expac steering the spec back to combat imo is the best decision. RTB is cool on paper not in practice.

[Shibukai]

I've mained Outlaw for the whole expansion with only Normal and Heroic clears.

For those who think it's so RNG based, the spec has changed a lot since Emerald Nightmare. There is still the rare 5 buff dps variance, but the guaranteed 2 buffs after each adrenaline rush makes it much more predictable. You don't get the bad feeling of consecutive bad 1 buff rerolls anymore.

Adapting your play-style to the buffs you get is good RNG and allows for optimal play to squeeze out more dps. And I find this much more interesting than the old Combat's Bandit's Guile (green/yellow/red buff) mechanic. Outlaw SnD is just a dumbed down version of the old Combat, since we lost both Bandit's Guile, Revealing Strike and Killing Spree.

The underlying reason most players choose a spec is based on performance. Outlaw for EM, Sin for NH, Sub for ToS and even the shift to Outlaw SnD in ToS is based solely on the spec's performance. Sub changed considerably but not enough to explain such a shift. Outlaw is now more matured than it was on EM and less dependent on RNG which was the main complaint since PTR.

The only issues right now are:
1- Raw dps (easily solved with an aura, but Muguin's sugestions are realy good). There's no reason to have such disparities between specs. Being the worst at both cleave, ST and AoE is just not fun.
2 -Scaling (this one's tricky, but better weapon scaling could do it)

Making Grappling baseline would be cool and does go well with the theme, but that Talent row is actually interesting. As subjective as it is, I rate the specs in terms of fun as: RtB > Sub > Combat > Sin > SnD. But this shouldn't really matter at all. To each their own.

EDIT: words

[Deleted]

I've mained Outlaw for the whole expansion with only Normal and Heroic clears.

For those who think it's so RNG based, the spec has changed a lot since Emerald Nightmare. There is still the rare 5 buff dps variance, but the guaranteed 2 buffs after each adrenaline rush makes it much more predictable. You don't get the bad feeling of consecutive bad 1 buff rerolls anymore.

Adapting your play-style to the buffs you get is good RNG and allows for optimal play to squeeze out more dps. And I find this much more interesting than the old Combat's Bandit's Guile (green/yellow/red buff) mechanic. Outlaw SnD is just a dumbed down version of the old Combat, since we lost both Bandit's Guile, Revealing Strike and Killing Spree.

The underlying reason most players choose a spec is based on performance. Outlaw for EM, Sin for NH, Sub for ToS and even the shift to Outlaw SnD in ToS is based solely on the spec's performance. Sub changed considerably but not enough to explain such a shift. Outlaw is now more matured than it was on EM and less dependent on RNG which was the main complaint since PTR.

The only issues right now are:
1- Raw dps (easily solved with an aura, but Muguin's sugestions are realy good). There's no reason to have such disparities between specs. Being the worst at both cleave, ST and AoE is just not fun.
2 -Scaling (this one's tricky, but better weapon scaling could do it)

Making Grappling baseline would be cool and does go well with the theme, but that Talent row is actually interesting. As subjective as it is, I rate the specs in terms of fun as: RtB > Sub > Combat > Sin > SnD. But this shouldn't really matter at all. To each their own.

EDIT: words

I agree on the situation.
I would add as an issue that TB is still too valuable and that without proper CD reduction, you still wait for Loaded Dice and fall in a DPS starv period without.
Meaning CoF still musthave
Fortune Boon best Relic
And TB buff very important

As it was proposed before, i think TB should be removed and Restless Blade buffed.
I'm sure it whould be enough to make outlaw great again (gameplay and numbers)

edit:
words

[Muguin]

I'm all for the removal of TB and buff of Restless but what do they buff Restless to 1 sec or 2 sec per CP? They would have to buff the weaker dice even more to compensate for RTB losing tb. Now i like using SnD over RTB cause it plays like combat before it became outlaw and i liked the aforementioned Bandit's guile combat rotation. I could do with out KS being baseline and revealing strike is now ghostly strike but the DMG% you got from guile is missing and so our dps is just crap with out it. I don't think blizz will back peddle to being the old combat because the rogue community as a whole doesn't give two shits what happens to outlaw it is only a select few who do.

[Deleted]

Turn it into a tanking spec for next expansion.

[Deleted]

rogue community as a whole doesn't give two shits what happens to outlaw it is only a select few who do.

Agreed, there's poor chance to get a change (until 8.0)
I'm a bit sad, cause the current situation was totally predictable and announced during the outlaw "refundation".
Poor numbers + Poor scaling will finish to put outlaw as a niche.

bah... that's the way game goes.

ps:
bandit's guile was a fun mecanism.

[Nospmas]

ps:
bandit's guile was a fun mecanism.

lol, I remember when they introduced bandits guile and every single forum post about it was negative "too much ramp up" , "bandit's Guile is terrible" , but now that it's gone you see the above. Something like this would drive me crazy if I was a game developer.

[Deleted]

Something like this would drive me crazy if I was a game developer.

You're right. I was also upset when reading "RtB is really fun" month ago.

Managing bandit guile was the core of combat spec good performing. In comparison actual SnD build is really .... flat.
I have to admit that "fun" may not be the good word (my lack of vocabulary betray me ^^)... I hope what I meant is more clear now.

ps:
When users remember past things as "good", there is problem, but maybe on both sides ^^

[Mistakes]

The thing I notice most as outlaw is that, especially in tomb you spend a fair amount of time off-boss and your numbers plummet as a result. Other classes either have dots to help sustain off boss or short bursty cds that bring them back up. I play snd and and it is rough to have to ALWAYS be hitting the boss to even keep up much less do good damage. I think a strong dot on like a minute CD (reduceable by restless blades) would help a lot. We're pirates...maybe we can give the enemy scurvy?