Will the Holinkoaster Effect end next xpac?

[Deleted]

They could do so much more with pvp if they wanted.
But
Pve base players are bigger than pvp base and money talks.

[Kagthul]

They could do so much more with pvp if they wanted.
But
Pve base players are bigger than pvp base and money talks.

Ehh...not really. Their own internal numbers showed that prior to LFR, single digit percentages of players EVER saw the inside of a Raid (“end-game PvE”). Even agter he inclusion of LFR, it never got better than ~30% (in WoD), and is back down to the high 20s iirc (i may be wrong and cant be arsed to check). Lets say 30% for ease.

“End-game PvP”participation, on the oher hand, was, prior to Legion, consistently in the 42-48% range (measured by how many players got full sets of Conquest gear each season, which meant they had earned he 25k Conquest for he season achievement).

PvP was ALWAYS a more popular end-game activity.

Its harder to track now during legion (since there is no equivalent achievement to be easily tracked), but participation is WAY down bevause worthwhile rewards were removed, even from casual PvP.

[Caolela]

That ol' meanie "Kagthul the Meme Buster". Let's hope the mongoloid fanboys and Blizz dicksuckers never get their hands on him or they'll burn him at the stake at the next Blizzcon.

Now that I think it about it though, that would be a lot more exciting to watch than the 3v3 tourneys, eh?

Sorry Kag, I'm throwing in with the enemy...your ass is toast! D:

[Dizzeeyooo]

Holinka wasn't in charge of class design and that was the ultimate deciding factor on how good PvP would be.

Pretty much this. PvP was really alive - and fun - until Warlords of Draenor.

Class butchering and catering to beginners is the greatest mistake they ever made about PvP.

amen - end thread

[Duckypoo]

Holinka wasn't in charge of class design and that was the ultimate deciding factor on how good PvP would be.

With templates anything was possible, so I call bullshit on this one. Holinka chose not to do anything exceptional with templates and the result is what we have now.

[Philomene]

I don't want to talk for everybody but I don't think I'm the only one that cares more about the fun, the feeling of the classes and their depth than pure balance. I mean, you can always pull out a season where a class or spec was better than average, was it ruining the game ? Nah

Participation went down the drain not because of balance or "random gear" or templates. It's been down the drain because they decided to cater to beginners by basically removing everything that wasn't damage from damage classes and continuing dumb skill-less game designs like the new spell reflect, grounding totem removal from dps specs, leap of faith for spriests, also mana homogeneization for hybrids, etc.

Just look at the ladder, 80% of people queuing were 1.8 during Cata/MoP and got their first 2.2/2.4 during Legion, arenas right now are so depressing that a large portion of people queuing are just apes that always dreamt of duelist and t2 colors.

Yes I'm bitter cause all my friends left the game during WoD and came back for Legion during a couple of weeks to leave again, so basically any Legion hero can call me a "washed-up wotlk/cata/MoP dude", tbh I don't have any hopes for the PvP side of this game, glad at least the PvE side is keeping me entertained and challenging with the M+ system - and interesting class design.

If they want to fix PvP, put back a learning and progressing curve through class and game depth, add some rewards for 1.8 in addition to 2, 2.2 and 2.4...

[Dizzeeyooo]

With templates anything was possible, so I call bullshit on this one

templates have absolutely nothing to do with how a spec plays and how much utility/playstyle choices a spec has available for the player to make, that is class design

templates exist to control how much damage/healing different specs do, and stop specs having options in gearing

[apepi]

I mean, Blizzard has only added one pvp thing since MoP which is a single arena map. No new battlegrounds. No real new pvp content. No wonder I stopped playing.

[oplawlz]

WoW will always struggle with PvP and it's never going to be balanced or fun like people think it should be. It has this weird dichotomy of wanting to be on a even foot being about skill and less about gear yet at the same time people want the gear and reward treadmill. The inherent joy of Player vs Player, at least to me, is the satisfaction of beating the other guy but people are too brainwashed into give me something for my effort instead of intrinsic rewards.

I'm with you on this, but there's a problem with that philosophy. People have a limited amount of time to play video games. When once person spends 2 hours a night and gets awesome mythic gear and mounts doing casual pve bullshit, and another person spends 2 hours a night doing casual pvp bullshit but only gets shitty green gear from random boxes . . . guess who feels like they wasted their time? If the first person didn't exist, the second person would probably be fine with what they got, but pvp doesn't exist in a vacuum in this game, and never will.

[Caolela]

Participation went down the drain not because of balance or "random gear" or templates. It's been down the drain because they decided to cater to beginners by basically removing everything that wasn't damage from damage classes and continuing dumb skill-less game designs like the new spell reflect, grounding totem removal from dps specs, leap of faith for spriests, also mana homogeneization for hybrids, etc.

Just look at the ladder, 80% of people queuing were 1.8 during Cata/MoP and got their first 2.2/2.4 during Legion, arenas right now are so depressing that a large portion of people queuing are just apes that always dreamt of duelist and t2 colors.

Pruning and dumbing down was only part of why people have left PvP. Templates and RNG certainly are some of the other reasons, and herding players into PvE that they didn't want to do for gear.

Templates and pruning are related because you have to adjust templates based on the amount and type (or lack of) abilities each class has.

When you can't choose how to build your char in an MMO but are stuck with a given set of stats, when playing a different format of the game that you don't like is more efficient to gear up, then it isn't an MMO much anymore.

[Ealyssa]

First let's define "Holinkoaster effect": Activision bought blizzard

First error, right there, on the first line.

Activision never bought blizzard. Vivendi Games and Activision merged to create Activision Blizzard, which is owning Activision and owning Blizzard (and other companies too).

Check your facts before going into useless rants. Thanks.

[Schattenlied]

Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.

WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.

that's not why PvP is dying, it's because the incentives for playing it are being taken away, and the balance is only getting worse (which means it's no longer fun)... If you think it took near 12 years for people to "realize WoW isn't a PvP game" you are out of your mind.

You are also out of your mind if you think the people that like specifically the kind of PvP provided by an MMOPRG's combat system are looking to a card game and a first person shooter for their PvP fix... Both of those things have existed for years and years before even WoW did, if they wanted that kind of PvP they would have been playing it from the start.

[Dizzeeyooo]

the balance is only getting worse (which means it's no longer fun)

pvp being balanced is nothing to do with pvp being fun

[Schattenlied]

pvp being balanced is nothing to do with pvp being fun

you just took half of a sentence out of context, well done, now add the first half back in. It's a combination... Balance does contribute, because if a person's chosen class can't compete or meaningfully contribute, they won't have fun, if they don't want to play a different class, they just won't play, which means lower PvP participation from the playerbase.

[Dizzeeyooo]

you just took half of a sentence out of context, well done, now add the first half back in. It's a combination.

incentives to play pvp also have nothing to do with pvp being fun, so not sure how I took your point out of context

[Kralljin]

I mean, Blizzard has only added one pvp thing since MoP which is a single arena map. No new battlegrounds. No real new pvp content. No wonder I stopped playing.

While i would love to see new battlegrounds, i have to admit that Blizzards track record on new Battlegrounds is rather mixed.

Warsong gulch and Arathi basin, along with Twin Peaks & Gilneas Spin off remain the most popular Bg's, i mean bg's like Kotmogu, Deepwind Gorge, Silvershard mines, etc. can't really stand up the "classics".

[Schattenlied]

incentives to play pvp also have nothing to do with pvp being fun, so not sure how I took your point out of context

maybe not for you, but it does for plenty of other people. A whole hell of a lot of people play this game to get the gear, not for what they will do with it once they have it, to see their character getting stronger as they get more gear is a nice feeling, a goal they look forward to working on... having a goal to work towards is important to many people, that goal has been taken away from PvP.

[Cæli]

the pvp system needs to be remade to fit the fact that wow is mainly a pve game, pvp feels really out of place, and there is huge design problems to begin with. total overhaul needed, no pvp system 3.0 bs, it was the same pvp system

[Billy Idol]

Havent had fun since AV, but for me i repeat For me the pvp change when GC arrive and then came Holinka to do a big mess. Now i really really hope that in the next Expansion pvp change for good and bring back the player not the class

[munkeyinorbit]

First let's define "Holinkoaster effect": Activision bought blizzard and Holinka assumed the PvP team back at cata, and that marked the downfall of WoW PvP as we know. a lot of bad changes happened over and over and despite a few people claiming "it wasnt holinka, it was decisions from the inside" his leaving may cause a future turn of events for the next expansion.

A lista of things included in the Holinkoaster effect:

• "Elitization" of PvP - removing 2v2 and 5v5, making it so only PvP mounts would remain character-bound (instead of account bound) and other changes based on "elitizing" the game were done since cata. The aim here was to make WoW PvP feel more about the competition and less about the experience itself, which diminished the interest of players on PvP over the years up until the moment that barely anyone wants to do it nowadays.
• "Casual PvP is only for fun" - Removing rewards and incentive for normal players to do random battlegrounds and such is also a big issue here. Despite there being prestige progress (which still exists for rated), there is no progression or anything on doing Casual PvP such as arena skirmishes and random BGs, which caused the player base to stop doing random BGs.
• "PvP Templates" - Having everyone being equal on PvP isn't really a bad thing, but when you remove customization entirely from the game and everyone is playing a game that is even less customizable than MOBAs things become a problem.
• "PvP talents" - this one is a personal issue that I have. I kinda hated having PvP talents instead of a customizable normal talent, because it pushed players even further away from PvP as the rotations and gameplay from a few classes change completely from PvP to PvE with different abilities and such.
• "No new rewards added to rated PvP, ever" - This is also another issue, since Holinka's (Or Whoever was in real charge) aim was to have PvP be only about the competition and not about the gear, and casual PvP being just about the fun, they also didn't care about giving PvPers any other real reward besides the "Gladiator" achievement for the top 0.5% and a mount they can't even use on their alts. This meant that PvP players lost the interest in doing rated PvP as there was no reward on doing so while the PvE rewards were distributed across the board with different mounts, transmogs and titles being constantly added to the game.

All these changes, I think, pushed players away from PvP and all started with mister Holinka.
So I call for your opinion: Now that he is gone, will we have a new light on PvP for the next expansion? Can a new light come even before that?

No. You are determined to hate whoever you think is in charge if the pvp game will not revert to the way that you want to play. That is not the direction that the game is going and you are just going to end up angry.

No one wants to see another moron thread such as this. You have to be some kind of special t make up something like "Holinkoaster effect". The game has moved on. So should you.