Nightborne - pros and cons of joining the race

[Syegfryed]

Always the alliance side should show diplomacy. yeah, and horde can do what ever it likes

how the orcs can show diplomancy when a bunch of morons shot arrows and kill then?

they obviously don't know those are elf lands, they are innocent, thrall send then there to build a base, they are doing that

but when you shot first friend, you are able to get all the retribution, maybe with other lesser races, the night elves would kill then or drive then back easily without give a crap, but not the orcs

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First of all we are talking about an army (not a person) marching in another territory armed with weapons and building bases with the same trees sacred to the natives of that place. Whether known or unknown, you will push them back. If the new comers resisted and kept advancing in then it means they want to take the land. Building bases and stealing resources from another land belonging to another group is unacceptable in any circumstances.

it was not a "army" it was just the warsong clan, they are build one base

they are not stealing resources when the threes are sacred for the elves, so they don't use then, thus are not resources

again if night elves are soo life respectful and lovers, like you and other claim, they should not shot first and ask after

[Utigarde]

I still think the best course is giving high elves as the night elf subrace, and nightborne as the blood elf subrace. Gives Alliance the belf skeleton, and Horde the nelf skeleton. Plus, theyre both highly requested playable races.

[Doffen]

I'm awake, I'm awake. This thread delivers.

Can easily see that horde players arguments for NB being horde, and alliance players argument for the opposite. Think all the rage it would be if they gave NB to only one faction! It would be like giving panda to horde only... Hey I would be okay with that.

Gief Nightborne to Alliance!!(and throw all the male pandas over to horde) That transmog for the ladies in Court of Stars as well please. With Elisandes helm.

[Rhlor]

It makes no sense for them to start Nightborne civil war 2 right after they just finished. Especially one being lead by two of the people who fought on the winning side of the last civil war.

Is there a civil war between the illidari? no, work like illidari do

[Lens Hunter]

Knowing the Night Elves they will think they are too good for the Nightborne.

Fucking Alliance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

This is their land and they have the authority to deal with any invading mongrels in any way they like.

and its exactly what got them bent over the barrel by the orcs. Because simple things like diplomacy are too hard for the night elves. Which brings us back to handling the nightborne relations like handling fine china with a baseball bat.

Then you don't understand the NEs at all. They are the protectors of life and balance. Any living creature who seeks to agitate the order of nature is considered as an enemy to NEs.

He understands night elves perfectly well, they don't understand how to de-escelate a conflict and always manage to do possible the worst possible thing when it comes to relations, something that only started to get beaten out off them with the death of Cenarius.

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I still think the best course is giving high elves as the night elf subrace, and nightborne as the blood elf subrace. Gives Alliance the belf skeleton, and Horde the nelf skeleton. Plus, theyre both highly requested playable races.

Conssidering blizzard said they don't like neutral races, nothing will ever be on both sides again.

[Zulkhan]

Holy shit, this whole Night Elf vs Orc debate is terrible. No, you don't show mercy, sympathy or diplomacy towards someone who's shown none to you. Night Elves started to kill Grom's people without receiving any direct or willing provocation, the only response they deserved was getting themselves killed. Let's stop pretend Orcs should have known that anyone owned the land when Night Elves do their best to not let their presence known, hiding in the shadows of their trees is one of the things they do best and it's not like there was signage of any sort. To the foreigner's eye Ashenvale looked nothing but untamed (an impression Night Elves reinforced thanks to their close ties to nature and the rare signs of civilization left around) but nope, Ashenvale was "sacred" and everyone should have known that because reasons.

Sorry but there's no way to excuse the Night Elf's behavior. In WC3 they blatantly grew isolationist and xenophobic, treating every trepassing into their lands as a sign of aggression justifying lethal force. But Orcs are not the kind of people that retreat back before an aggressor but rather retaliate. You can blame Grom for acting like an orc through and through but Night Elves remained the biggest offenders

[Dagoth Ur]

Then you don't understand the NEs at all. They are the protectors of life and balance. Any living creature who seeks to agitate the order of nature is considered as an enemy to NEs.

It was more about arrogance and xenophobia then saving the trees.

They literally considered both orcs and humans animals and unworthy of even interacting with, let alone let them dwell in their sacred forest.

That's also why they didn't try to come to diplomatic solution, it took death of Cenarius and Burning Legion returning to humble them down.
Only near the end of the campaign Tyrande realizes that they're gonna need both of them to stop Archimonde and even admits she was wrong later.

[DeicideUH]

Holy shit, this whole Night Elf vs Orc debate is terrible. No, you don't show mercy, sympathy or diplomacy towards someone who's shown none to you. Night Elves started to kill Grom's people without receiving any direct or willing provocation, the only response they deserved was getting themselves killed. Let's stop pretend Orcs should have known that anyone owned the land when Night Elves do their best to not let their presence known, hiding in the shadows of their trees is one of the things they do best and it's not like there was signage of any sort. To the foreigner's eye Ashenvale looked nothing but untamed (an impression Night Elves reinforced thanks to their close ties to nature and the rare signs of civilization left around) but nope, Ashenvale was "sacred" and everyone should have known that because reasons.

Sorry but there's no way to excuse the Night Elf's behavior. In WC3 they blatantly grew isolationist and xenophobic, treating every trepassing into their lands as a sign of aggression justifying lethal force. But Orcs are not the kind of people that retreat back before an aggressor but rather retaliate. You can blame Grom for acting like an orc through and through but Night Elves remained the biggest offenders

Do you understand what kind of setting Warcraft is?

The whole point of the night elves, at least circa Wacraft 3, was that they were savage. Grom not only notices that ("They look like elves, but are far too tall, and far too savage"), but respects that, because if it was the other way around, if it were anyone threading into orc territory, specially Warsong territory, you'd be attacked the same way.

To the night elves, what they saw was a bunch of armed trespassers desecrating their sacred forest. In Kalimdor, pretty much any native would know that the forest was night elf territory. After 10,000 years isolated, used to expell anyone who breached into their lands, they saw no reason to treat orcs differently.

Diplomacy works differently on such settings. You can't judge their actions by modern standards.

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It was more about arrogance and xenophobia then saving the trees.

They literally considered both orcs and humans animals and unworthy of even interacting with, let alone let them dwell in their sacred forest.

That's also why they didn't try to come to diplomatic solution, it took death of Cenarius and Burning Legion returning to humble them down.
Only near the end of the campaign Tyrande realizes that they're gonna need both of them to stop Archimonde and even admits she was wrong later.

Malfurion was way more curious and understanding, and the first to point out that the invaders were also fighting the undead.

Tyrande, indeed, just wanted to expel all invaders. Fighting alongside them is what made her change.

It's kinda weird to judge the night elves then and now. They were retconned hard for WoW. The reason they seem so boring is that Blizzard hasn't really give attention to their original savage nature. It's all about druidism now.

I'd like to have more of the WC3 night elves back.

[Syegfryed]

Do you understand what kind of setting Warcraft is?

The whole point of the night elves, at least circa Wacraft 3, was that they were savage. Grom not only notices that ("They look like elves, but are far too tall, and far too savage"), but respects that, because if it was the other way around, if it were anyone threading into orc territory, specially Warsong territory, you'd be attacked the same way.

To the night elves, what they saw was a bunch of armed trespassers desecrating their sacred forest. In Kalimdor, pretty much any native would know that the forest was night elf territory. After 10,000 years isolated, used to expell anyone who breached into their lands, they saw no reason to treat orcs differently.

Diplomacy works differently on such settings. You can't judge their actions by modern standards.

the whole point of night elves in war3 that they are xenophobic and racist bastards, they can chose any way to deal with invaders, even the worst ways possible, but don't expect to the invaders to act kind and leave those morons kill then with no resistance


if you diplomacy is war, you get war back too

If they at least wait to the orcs attack first maybe the elves would have reason

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yes yes yes yes, because you say it then it must be true. Yet I wonder who brought the Draenei and Worgen into the Alliance.

you mean the Night elves who screamed demon? And had to be taught over several quests while being healed to learn the difference between Draenei and Eredar?

And the worgen, who the night elves actually knew about? Once again your comparisons are terrible, because you still can't see any deeper than a puddle apparently and reading into things was too hard. The night elves and Tyrande practically spat on the Nightborne with their actions, none of this "They are secretly proud of them " crap.

The orcs are just the easiest and most glaring example of the night elves being unable to deal with other races unless they are forced to or physically restrained and had the idea that not everything that isn't a night elf wants to kill them beaten into their brain.

No, it is not about arrogance. Consider Kalimdor of that time for a moment: there were so many vile and barbaric invaders like Centaurs, Quilboars, Harpies or Satyrs or even goblins shredders as we saw in w3. Kalimdor was not a peaceful continent, there were always war and slaughter going on and the one race who was successful keeping their territory peaceful were the NEs but that was not out of arrogance rather out of cautiousness. Therefore, diplomatic solution had little meaning in those circumstances, still that doesn't have to do with some unknown fully armed creatures defiling their lands and stealing their resources and building settlements, that has no excuse. Invasion is an invasion and it must be dealt with.

Malfurion on the hand had been gone for too long. He didn't have any clue how things were going in Kalimdor. It was reasonable that he suggested to work with the new comers. But the fun part is he blindly trusted some outlanders and wanted to work with them but he refused to work with his own brother.

Saying the night elves weren't xenophobic paranoid assholes that would kill you for touching a tree is probably the funniest thing you have said so far.

Centaurs, Quillboars, harpies, Goblins, none of them were in night elven lands, all that shit was in the Barrens , thousand needles and Tauren territory. So unless you're trying to say the night elves cared so much about life that they said fuck it to anything outside their forest, ok.

[Darktbs]

Saying the night elves weren't xenophobic paranoid assholes that would kill you for touching a tree is probably the funniest thing you have said so far.

Centaurs, Quillboars, harpies, Goblins, none of them were in night elven lands, all that shit was in the Barrens , thousand needles and Tauren territory. So unless you're trying to say the night elves cared so much about life that they said fuck it to anything outside their forest, ok.

Actually, there were Goblins inside the Forest, where Grom got the Shredders, the Goblin even said "Strange to see one of you on this parts"

[DeicideUH]

the whole point of night elves in war3 that they are xenophobic and racist bastards, they can chose any way to deal with invaders, even the worst ways possible, but don't expect to the invaders to act kind and leave those morons kill then with no resistance

Oh, I agree with that, but partially.
If you are the trespasser on someone's land and they attack you, they are at fault, but you, as the trespasser, have 3 options:

- Try to talk and show you are not threat
- Leave their lands.
- Fight back.

The first has a chance to fail, but at least you tried. It's the riskier one, but it may mean end of aggression and maybe peace.
The second will make them stop attack you, but it's not a viable option sometimes, specially if something else pushed you into their lands (not Grom's case).
The third will start a circle of hatred and war.

Grom, being Grom, chose the third. I don't see Thrall or Cairn, for example, making the same mistake.

Were the night elves wrong for attacking first? Yes, but they were a isolated people, unacostumed with dealing with foreigners. The orcs should've known better at that point, but Grom was the one leading them there.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Actually, there were Goblins inside the Forest, where Grom got the Shredders, the Goblin even said "Strange to see one of you on this parts"

There were also Goblins in Quel'thalas, Eh I took it as a mission thing. Chronicle 3 then will clear it up.

[DeicideUH]

Centaurs, Quillboars, harpies, Goblins, none of them were in night elven lands, all that shit was in the Barrens , thousand needles and Tauren territory. So unless you're trying to say the night elves cared so much about life that they said fuck it to anything outside their forest, ok.

Night elves did deal with Harpies, Quillboards, Centaurs and others. They'd invade their territory from time to time. The reason they wouldn't stay and keep being a constant problem was exactly because the night elves protected their lands so aggressively.

About goblins... No, it didn't make any sense for them to be there. I think that was more a gameplay thing than true canon. Thought maybe, being more technologically advanced, they were able to scare off the night elves better than the other Kalimdor races.

[Dagoth Ur]

Oh, I agree with that, but partially.
If you are the trespasser on someone's land and they attack you, they are at fault, but you, as the trespasser, have 3 options:

- Try to talk and show you are not threat
- Leave their lands.
- Fight back.

The first has a chance to fail, but at least you tried. It's the riskier one, but it may mean end of aggression and maybe peace.
The second will make them stop attack you, but it's not a viable option sometimes, specially if something else pushed you into their lands (not Grom's case).
The third will start a circle of hatred and war.

Grom, being Grom, chose the third. I don't see Thrall or Cairn, for example, making the same mistake.

Were the night elves wrong for attacking first? Yes, but they were a isolated people, unacostumed with dealing with foreigners. The orcs should've known better at that point, but Grom was the one leading them there.

I get what you're trying to say but I just find that scenario extremely unrealistic.
Once the arrows start flying you don't even think about that and it's not a looney toons cartoon where Grom could duck, say something then duck again until they stop.
Best possible scenario would be for Night elves to show themselves and ask orcs to leave without hostility.

This is probably a very rare case where orcs didn't start shit and weren't at fault.

[Zulkhan]

The whole point of the night elves, at least circa Wacraft 3, was that they were savage. Grom not only notices that ("They look like elves, but are far too tall, and far too savage"), but respects that, because if it was the other way around, if it were anyone threading into orc territory, specially Warsong territory, you'd be attacked the same way.

Pretty sure that's a very particular interpretation of yours to somehow justify the Night Elf's behavior because, well, Grom's comment blatantly concerned the Sentinels' ferocity in battle, it wasn't about who would have crossed what or how they would have reacted. The comparison with Orcs or the Warsong is in itself flawed as we know why Night Elves reacted that way, they valued their precious trees just as any other living being due to Ashenvale being sacred or something.

Let's not forget that Night Elves attacked and killed Humans along Orcs just fine. They literally jumped over the neck of anyone roaming around.

To the night elves, what they saw was a bunch of armed trespassers desecrating their sacred forest. In Kalimdor, pretty much any native would know that the forest was night elf territory. After 10,000 years isolated, used to expell anyone who breached into their lands, they saw no reason to treat orcs differently.

Yeah really, whatever. You pretty much described yourself Night Elves as isolationist and that's pretty much the number one reason for why their reaction was that extreme.

Diplomacy works differently on such settings. You can't judge their actions by modern standards.

Seriously, it doesn't take any diplomacy to surround a foreign encampment (you're playing at home, after all) and demand explanations while also explaining yourself why cutting trees in that particular place isn't allowed. If you merely jump out of the shadows and attack someone you'll always be on the wrong side of the matter.

[Wyrt]

Is there a civil war between the illidari? no, work like illidari do

What do you call killing each other for shits and giggles because some idiots who never even liked the Illidari told them too?

[therealstegblob]

If they want to actually add the Nightborne as playable models, they really need to touch them up. At a glance the Nightborne might look like really good models, but they're actually pretty ugly and have a lot of animation and clipping problems that would become very noticeable to people if they were actual player races.

I'm not against the Nightborne or anything, just mentioning that the current models need some serious work done to them.

[DeicideUH]

If they want to actually add the Nightborne as playable models, they really need to touch them up. At a glance the Nightborne might look like really good models, but they're actually pretty ugly and have a lot of animation and clipping problems that would become very noticeable to people if they were actual player races.

I'm not against the Nightborne or anything, just mentioning that the current models need some serious work done to them.

The current models are NPC-only, can't even equip gear.
If they turn out playable, the playable ones will probably use slightly modified night elf models.